MEChA - good or bad?

I've lived around hispanic types all my life and always thought of them as 'regular people' - in short, I barely noticed that they were different from anyone else I knew.

However, I ran into this hispanic guy relatively recently who said a bunch of really offensive stuff, including that he was going to help Zarquawi assasinate the president so they could overthrow the government and create Aztlan.

Ever since then, I've been trying to figure out what that guy was all about. I guess since I'd always been around normal type hispanics, I can't quite get my mind around the whacked out kind. Kind of like running into a neo-Nazi or a KKK guy.

I've been doing some research on the internet and found some mexican gangs that have some association with Aztlan. I've also found some information on MEChA that makes me wonder.

One the one hand, MEChA says they're non-violent. Le Plan de Santa Barbara is quite admirable. On the other hand, their web sites say things like this:

Essentially, we are a Chicana and Chicano student movement directly linked to Aztlán. As Chicanas and Chicanos of Aztlán, we are a nationalist movement of Indigenous Gente that lay claim to the land that is ours by birthright. As a nationalist movement we seek to free our people from the exploitation of an oppressive society that occupies our land. Thus, the principle of nationalism serves to preserve the cultural traditions of La Familia de La Raza and promotes our identity as a Chicana/Chicano Gente.

www.geocities.com...

Aztlan as they define it is California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and parts of Kansas and Oklahoma.

www.calnews.com...

In El Plan de Aztlan, it states:

In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny.

We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent

Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan.

latino.sscnet.ucla.edu...

Is there a secret plan underway to detach multiple states from the US and create Aztlan? Is MECha part of the plan? Is it a fringe group, or are large numbers of people involved?

Ugh - I just found this document on the web that was submitted to the UN Forum on Indiginous Peoples regarding Aztlan. Read it and become educated. It says, in part:

The concept of title in relation to land is a mythological construct, in which the world view of cultural identity is embedded and perpetuated across generations.

The simple reason is of course that the land is eminence itself, preexisting and outlasting any human society. The relationship with the land, with the material world which emerges from the land, is then defined and evidenced by the traditional systems of inheritance and identity which perpetuate these teachings to the generations of the future. This is universal for all societies, but it is the traditional Indigenous Peoples from around the globe that create identity by ecological relationships to the constellations of families, mountains, rivers, deserts, nations, oceans and stars that define our homelands in the universe.

The societies of the European-American settlers do not.

The present systems of the United States and other governments states of the hemisphere which derive their justifications for jurisdiction over the land on the Divine Right of Kings to Dominion over the Earth and its Peoples, is pure myth. Or better said, it is false myth -- a dead story with no teaching to teach but only a power grab to justify.

It cannot even hold coherence before the science of its own culture, now finally clarified that matter-energy are aspects of relationship to life, with automatic inflection by the world view of each clan, family, tribe, community, nation, and culture.

To claim ownership by land title today in view of the above is the equivalent of proclaiming that the world is flat. It is the position of a lost world, and a false reality. It is an empire with no clothes.

...

Beyond the Battle of Puebla, corresponding in the calendars of the Catholic church named for the Santa Cruz, it is said that these days are traditionally and ceremonially celebrated by the Indigenous Nations of Mexico as the time when a certain constellation appears over the southern horizon in Anahuac for the first time since winter -- the Southern Cross, also spoken of as the constellation of the Confederation of the Condor, Tawantinsuyo. As members of the Indigenous Nations of the Confederacy of the Eagle and the Condor, el 5 de Mayo is thus a commemoration of the ancient Treaty between the North and the South which binds us culturally, politically, and spiritually to each other and the Universe of the Four Directions.

The border established by the Adams Onis Treaty 1819 is many times mistakenly used to identify the northern limits of the territories of Mexico, when in fact it is a purely Hispanic - Anglo colonial franchise agreement, the same as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

This same political phenomena has a domestic subset, the corresponding state, county, city identities of the so called republics established under colonization continentally. The educational systems of European American colonization would reduce us to the use only of their concepts of geography to define reality, to develop strategy the better to control and subvert the resistance to colonization by the colonized.

www.tonatierra.org...

Basically, they're rewriting history so they can claim parts of the US for themselves.

OK, I have one more thing to say on this.

I support preservation of ALL heritage sites.

I support preservation of anyone's cultural heritage.

I do not support discrimination or exploitation of anyone.

I do not support advocation of an overthrow of the government.

Evidence is beginning to show that 'indiginous peoples' are not the only peoples who were historically in North America, nor do many 'indiginous peoples' come from North America at all. All but 10% of natives in Mexico were wiped out by the Spanish. Inhabitants of Mexico are mainly of Spanish decent. New genetic testing shows that Native Americans are decended from a wide variety of global peoples who came to North America in waves. Some evidence shows that 'indiginous peoples' may be of European decent from waves of migration in the ice age. Trying to divide todays society into 'us' and 'them' and trying to hack up the land all over again is just plain - well, divisive. Plus, genetics shows we're all closely related anyway, so what's the freaking point?

Who cares where anyone came from as long as we're all Americans now?

Why is the idea of living together with mutual respect so hard?

I really do have a hard time getting my mind around the idea of someone wanting to overthrow the government and redivide the land (much as I dislike the present administration).

I understand indigenous peoples feel mistreated in the take-over of lands in many parts of the world.
However, I thought these people usually held the belief that the land belongs to no one? Am I wrong in this thought?

See this ATSNN topic also:
Shinnecock Indians lay Claim to Valuable NY Land

I understand indigenous peoples feel mistreated in the take-over of lands in many parts of the world.

Part of what confuses me is that Mexican nationals are saying they're indiginous peoples of the US and Aztlan belongs to them. If their true ancestry was considered, they would be deported to Spain, not given a swathe of the US.

Also, by the same logic, I should be able to petition the Queen of England for a big chunk of land in the UK to set up my own country because my ancestors were driven off their land by religious persecution and violence.

I guess I just don't see how fomenting violence and resentment helps anything. Considering genetics, we're relatives, not different races. So I guess when they say 'la raza' they mean me despite my ancestors recent arrival 400 years ago.

Nor do I understand how Mexican nationals can claim land where they've never lived. Not to mention the fact that since I was born in the US, I'm as 'native' as anyone else.

It does make me wonder, however, if there's a conspiracy afoot to actually overthrow the government.

*historical note: Before the spaniards came, Mexicans held those areas of land the Aztlan lay claim too.

*historical note: Before the spaniards came, Mexicans held those areas of land the Aztlan lay claim too.

Uh - where are you getting your history? I have pioneer diaries from my family that talk about encountering Indians and giving them bread and such. But, not a single mention of any Mexican nationals. Why IS that?

Please cite references for your 'history.' Please cite references for any evidence of pre-Spanish Mexicans in the southwest US.

Try this:

Mexico's Independence from Spain (1810-1821)

www.mexconnect.com...

By that logic, I can claim the entire universe on behalf of the United States just because we want it. No settlement required.

A quote:

Legend states that the Aztec and other Náhuatl-speaking tribal groups originally came to the Valley of Mexico from a region in the northwest, popularly known as Atzlan-Chicomoztoc. The name Aztec, in fact, is said to have been derived from this ancestral homeland, Aztlan (The Place of Herons). According to legend, the land of Atzlan was said to have been a marshy island situated in the middle of a lake.

Sounds kinda like England.

But, it could also be Polynesia, Japan, or any of the other island nations Native Americans have been genetically tied to.

But I'm not aware of any marshy islands in the middle of the United States where evidence of human origins have been found. They have found such evidence in Africa, however.

I did some searching on the web and found some additional information about the origins of the Chichimecs, who are the ancestors of the Aztecs (the origins of the word Aztlan).

Some important quotes regarding origins of the Aztec:

Thirty-five years ago, Robert Barlow wanted to discover the elusive Chicomoztoc. The quest was like a pilgrimage, a concerted effort for a sacred shrine. Many others before and after Barlow have searched. Most investigators have concluded that it’s situated in the northern part of the valley of Mexico, or in the valley of Teotihuacan, or towards ancient Tula.

www.mc2-map.org...

And for more detail on the search for the exact location:

www.mc2-map.org...

The Historia Tolteca-Chichimeca portrays Chicomoztoc, or the Seven Caves of Aztlán from which the first Chichimec tribes emerged before invading the Basin of México to become the Aztecs. Note the different varities of nopal, organ-pipe and barrel cacti showing that Chicomoztoc was equated with the remote northern deserts. Click on Image for more detail.

Codex Boturini. The Chichimecs journeyed until one day they witnessed a tree being ripped asunder by a bolt of lightning. The seventh and last tribe, more properly called the Méxica, took the event as a sign that they were to divide and follow their own destiny. Their god Huitzilopochtli is shown counseling them. The Méxica continued to wander for many more years, sometimes hunting and sometimes settling down to farm, but never remaining in any one place for very long. After the collapse of Tula, the capital of a Toltec state that dominated Central México from the ninth to the thirteenth centuries, they decided to move south to Lake Texcoco. Click on Image for more detail.

Codex Mendoza. Impoverished and without allies, the Méxica were soon subjected to attacks by local Toltec warlords who forced them to retreat to an island off Lake Texcoco’s western shore where they witnessed a miraculous vision of prophecy; an eagle standing on a cactus growing from solid rock. It was the sign for Tenochtitlán, their final destination. The official date of the city’s founding was A.D. 1335. Click on Image for more detail.

Finding they had little to offer other than their reputation as fearsome warriors, the Méxica had no other choice than to hire themselves out as mercenaries to rival Toltec factions. Eventually they were able to affect the balance of power in the region to such a degree that they were granted royal marriages. The Méxica, now the most powerful of the seven original Aztec tribes, incorporated their former rivals and together they conquered an empire. Eventually, they gave their name to the nation of México, while their city of Tenochtitlán became what we know today as México City. Historians still apply the term Aztec to the archaeological culture that dominated the Basin of México, but recognize that the people themselves were ethnically highly diversified.

www.famsi.org...

Additional links:

en.wikipedia.org...
www.guanajuato.gob.mx...
www.mexconnect.com...

A lot of historical evidence of some VERY interesting Mexican history, but no evidence whatsoever that they came from the US.

There is some evidence of language links, but that can be caused by a number of factors. For example, English incorporates a number of French words, but that doesn't mean the Normans originated in England.

The ancient history of North America is quite interesting, and I have every respect of the cultures of those who lived here. But I do object to modern historical revisionism in the name of greed. Nor do I believe in the modern destabilization of a nation to redress ancient wrongs.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I understand indigenous peoples feel mistreated in the take-over of lands in many parts of the world.
However, I thought these people usually held the belief that the land belongs to no one? Am I wrong in this thought?

Great so now we can take it back. What really cracks me up is you can talk candid about all races and no one says a peep, But mention the "J' word and your in the KKK. I'd loved to be jewish at least they get paid for what white people put them through

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Sand_man]

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Sand_man]

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh
One the one hand, MEChA says they're non-violent...

So does the KKK.

MEChA is a racist organization that supports, for all intents and purposes, the destruction of the United States. This "Aztlan" they claim to represent is a mythical place which never existed in the real world, so there's nothing to "reclaim."

MEChA should be put in the same group as the KKK and Black Panthers, and the FBI & CIA should be keeping a close eye on MEChA, building evidence to try certain MEChA members for sedition and/or treason where appropriate under the law.

Originally posted by ThunderCloud

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh
One the one hand, MEChA says they're non-violent...

So does the KKK.

MEChA is a racist organization that supports, for all intents and purposes, the destruction of the United States. This "Aztlan" they claim to represent is a mythical place which never existed in the real world, so there's nothing to "reclaim."

MEChA should be put in the same group as the KKK and Black Panthers, and the FBI & CIA should be keeping a close eye on MEChA, building evidence to try certain MEChA members for sedition and/or treason where appropriate under the law.

yes im almost tempted to call the local FBI or DHS right NOW and report these lunatics! to make Sure they know the danger of this, just in case
they would kill any of us as quickly as they would their main targets
they are psychotics! Real Terrorists like all other "Hate Groups"

im sure they are already keeping an eye on these dangerous groups; but better be safe than sorry

If you want to change the system you CANNOT murder innocent people
that totally ruins your cause

There is a totally non-violent way to achieve vindication in this society
i have EVIDENCE

Martin Luther King JR
Ghandi
Henry Thurou *cant spell his name right lol*

Look at how decendants of slaves get paid reparations and are givin special privlidges!
Look how native americans are givin special status especially when it comes to setting up casinos and making huge $$$$ look at their tax status
look at the special privlidges reservations have

look at all that real hard

and tell me you cant "Change the System" without using violence or hate

You can totally change the system by USING the system agianst itself
the media will probably help you make it into a big deal too
theres countless examples of media blowing things outta proportion and getting all PC on everyone

we have every resource we need to change this world; and we
DO Not Need Violence
Its totally Stupid

and the FBI was invented to stop these lunatics from hurting any innocent people like you and me!

screw politics this is life and death!
we dont need a War!

I hope these punks go to Jail
where they belong
Ill end my rant now