you've probably seen this but

the picture with the bending laser -
that's a shot of a Delorean interior. I forget - is that a shot from Back to the Future, or what?

While I'm not sure if time travel is possible or not, I looked up every "prediction" JT made. For each that seem to have already "come to pass", articles can be found that were written before his "predictions". Here's the biggest ones that most people were crowing about. There's nothing left to do now, but sit back and wait for the civil war to start.
----------------------------
CJD:

Mad cow disease was discovered in Britain in 1986, triggering a slump in beef consumption across Europe and the subsequent slaughter of millions of cows to try to restore consumers' faith in eating beef. Britain has recorded over 110 cases of vCJD since 1996, linked to beef infected with mad cow disease, and at least 100 people have died.
-------------------------------
CERN:

It was widely known as early as Aug. 1999 that CERN was in a "race to create a black hole".

www.kressworks.com...

www.gyre.org...

www.astronomy.net...
------------------------------
Unix:

This was known long before JT posted. Not sure exactly when, but 1997 was the earliest I could find. Many older articles have probably disappeared from the web, but I'm sure you can find older ones if you look.
------------------------------
IBM 5100:

The APL/Basic thing has been known for years. It wasn't originally released in 1975, but was widely publicized later. This is pretty easy to find also.

www.brouhaha.com...

www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org...

www-1.ibm.com...


[Edited on 4-9-2003 by Satyr]

RGB has asked me to pass this along.

List members, attention! John Titor is an obvious hoax that nobody in physics OR computers would ever take seriously because:

a) No, you can't make black holes in a suitcase sized device. I personally don't thing this will EVER be possible, at least not without some ape# serious new physics, a source for a LOT of mass, immense shielding, and a hellacious power supply. Oh, and then we can start in on the thermodynamics and the byproduct waste heat. Oh, lordy no. No No.No.

b) If you could, and could keep them from getting loose and (literally) eating the planet while giving off hard radiation all the while, you couldn't make a time machine that functions in ANY SENSE like a "time machine" (a la H.G. Wells or this hoax) out of them. Especially not out of tiny discrete black holes. Make me a ring of black hole and somehow keep it from collapsing and I'll pay attention with interest to the mathematics, but discrete pointlike singularities no no no. Time just bends (a tiny tiny bit) and remains monotonic right up to the event horizon, and the event horizon is absolutely fatal to structure and life to approach, period.

Even with a ring hypothesized, I'd have to be convinced. Or again, with real new physics.

c) An IBM 5100 is ludicrous suggestion, clearly somebody's idea of a joke. A bad joke. Take it from (as you note) a person who's actually programmed an APL application on one... My palm pilot would be a better alternative, and there is NOTHING that ANY program or piece of hardware like the 5100 can do that cannot be done faster, better, easier by a plain old boring program written in C on any unix or linux box in the universe of today.

d) The 2038 "problem" is likewise a bad joke. This is such a non-problem that I can't believe that anybody would believe that it COULD be a problem. 64 bit machines alone will make this problem disappear within a few years, and I personally could engineer an adequate and portable solution in a matter of a few days, if there were any reason to panic over it, which there isn't.

Contrary to popular belief, RGB is not �pissed� and has been very gracious to accommodate my questions and further the discussion. I would also like to thank everyone for not bombing this guy with a ton of mail. I will post our entire conversation thread when it�s run its course.

It sounds like you got him interested enough to read a bit, eh?

I gave him the abridged version of JT, he's done a little research of his own and he's talked to Pickover.

If anyone is willing to host my interim catalog, when I'm finished, PLEASE, please, please u2u me. I don't want to dump it on geocities servers which will bomb out after like 4 hits.


BTW, Kukla, did you send RGB the links involving CERNs estimation that black holes could used for time machines. I think Undead posted it a little further back.

No I haven't but I'll ask him about it. Anybody else have questions they want answers to in relation to JT's story?

If you don't think he'll review all of them then pick several of the black hole links. This is the crux of JT's case.

CERN�s black hole generator
www.nature.com...

Black hole math (US Gov)
xxx.lanl.gov...

CERN�s math
doc.cern.ch...

Everything John Titor said about TT physics:
www.anomalies.net...

JT is a hoax. If it was not, he would go back in time, get an Athlon SledgeHammer system (64-bit PC), then use 64-bit Linux on it.

Cause no reads the whole story. It's huge, who would?

From johntitor.com: johntitor.com...

"
The 5100 has the ability to easily translate between the old IBM code, APL, BASIC and (with a few tweaks in 1975) UNIX. This may seem insignificant but the fact that the 5100 is portable means I can easily take it back to 2036.
"
"
the 5100 computer was capable of reading and changing all of the legacy code written by IBM before the release of that system and still be able to create new code in APL and basic.
"

So you would need a system that can read old IBM code and easilly translate it. Yes, you could write your own interpreter but a lot of technical manuals and knowledge were lost (where do most programmers live?). I'm not saying explicitly believe one way or the other, but if you take the time to read his story it is consistent.


From a email to the site editor:

"Here's another interesting email that points out something I've felt too. John's story can be torn apart and analyzed to the point where almost anything can be taken as proof or fault. But when taken as a whole, the
story is very haunting and unsettling. This email also points out the irony that we may argue about John's war up to the very day it starts..."

Wow, this topics got big!

Originally posted by masterp
JT is a hoax. If it was not, he would go back in time, get an Athlon SledgeHammer system (64-bit PC), then use 64-bit Linux on it.

Who's to say there was an Athlon SledgeHammer system in his world line? There is divergances in all worldlines perhaps his original didn't have this!

I kinda feel this topic now is going around in circles from reviewing the last few pages of posts. Just a shame there is no new information from any of this subject.

Doesanyone feel that JT's story matches up with the real world? I feel it does to some degree. Especially when it came to his predictions about CERN

kukla,

Dr. Brown's objections to Boomer's story are precisely the objections that I have posted over that past few years - I raised some of the objections with Titor directly.

The mass of the singularities is far too small to have the desired effect;

The injected electrons simply result in a maximally charged BH (i.e., q + e > M) where "q" is angular momentum and "e" is the electric charge.

Many more objections...

One has to see in his or her mind what occurs when his gadget is activated given where the BH's are located, what surrounds them and where the intended time traveler is relative to all of this.

Upon activation, if it really worked, the event horizons expand to engulf the components that make up the gadget long before the time traveler is affected. Some components simply "disappear " behind the EH and are no longer a part of the "world" where Boomer is sitting in his vehicle...the gadget stops working because parts of it have been removed.

If you blow up the cutaway schematic drawing of his gadget (300x works nicely) you can see that whatever it is it is a vacuum tube based piece of technology. I dunno - but I don't forsee vacuum tubes in a time machine.

Dr. Brown also points out (as I have also done) that the gadget as described would be out putting very hard gamma radiation (and not x-rays as Boomer said) due to Hawking Radiation. He'd be nuclear toast long before his two hour ride was completed.

The original radius of his event horizons, as he described them, was less than the radius of an electron. He then pumped up the mass and angular momentum of the BH's by injecting electrons.

Somewhere in his physics research for the story he overlooked some very basic ideas: Pauli Exclusion Principle is one thing he overlooked. Just how many electrons can you pump into a volume that starts out with a volume less than that of an electron?

The BH will very quickly have such a huge negative charge that pumping in further electrons would require the electrons to have a velocity very near to "c."

He also neglected Heisenberg Uncertainty. The drill with the electrons was to increase the angular momentum of the BH's so that they are "spun up." This means that the electrons must be pumped into the EH along very precise vectors such that each electron adds to the angular momentum. To do so requires him to have very precise information about the location of the electrons being pumped in. But he then begins to know less and less about their velocities (which is required because of the huge negative charge). If he then begins to focus on the electrons' velocities he no longer has the requisite knowledge about their locations.

Even if he were to magically overcome Exclusion and Uncertainty, how many electrons are required to pump up the mass sufficiently so that the EH expands from a radius less than an electron to a radius of ~3 meters (to engulf the entire vehicle)? How long does it take to pump in several trillion tons of electrons? Does his vehicle have a standard or heavy duty suspension so it can hold up the several trillion tons without being squished ?

I saw a reference to the "bent laser" in a post a few pages back. Take a close look at the photo. The effect is supposed to depict the bending of spacetime in the area of the activated gadget. Yes, the laser is bent. Look at the smoke and the hand. For some reason spacetime seems to be rather flat. Nice photo - poor attempt at showing curved spacetime.

It's a good thing that it's not real. The "hand person" would be smashed flat by the tidal effect and the molecules of his body would be ripped into sub-atomic particles if spacetime was as severely warped as the photo suggests.

Boomer's story is pretty good sci-fi. But it's really bad sci-physics.

Note: I've switched between using Titor and "Boomer" in the post. It's the same person. I gave him the nickname "Boomer" while we were posting on P2P.

Darby,

I'm glad you could join this discussion. I've been aware of JT's story for about a week. But it comes as no suprise that others see fault in Boomer's physics.

Some of your members claimed to have had powerful and strange experiences after the email and fax tests. Could you give us your opinion of these events? How many members actually reported these incidents?



[Edited on 6-9-2003 by kukla]

[Edited on 6-9-2003 by kukla]

Excellent thread indeed.

I will not now detract from it by posting the lyrics to the other Stooges' lost-in-time song, 1970.

But I did observe some casual and incidental reference to the importance of the Corvette being 1969. That really was coincidental (which I take to mean casual and incidental).

LOL! MA, a little distraction is needed now and then. Please do exercise your unique ability to mitigate emotional overload, as this topic has reached that threshold on numerous occasions.

Just want to say hi to Darby.

I just read about him on the paranormal board.

I'm almost done cataloging JTs statemnts (6 hours so far) from IamFrom2036.php and I'm at 400+ statements. He mentions needed a rebreather in the van and something about the BHs being very stable, but there's defintely "new" info at the source.

Darby, I hope you'll consider being a team member. (just requires comments)

Do you still need "host space"? I have plenty if you do. Let me know.

PEACE...
m...

Originally posted by kukla
Darby,

I'm glad you could join this discussion. I've been aware of JT's story for about a week. But it comes as no suprise that others see fault in Boomer's physics.

Some of your members claimed to have had powerful and strange experiences after the email and fax tests. Could you give us your opinion of these events? How many members actually reported these incidents?

kukla,

Thanks for the "welcome aboard."

Two or three people who have claimed to have participated in Boomer's email test have also reported to have experienced strange deja vu's. One has also reported that buildings and road signs in his area of Florida have changed.

The problem is that we have no idea what it is they wrote and they have no recollection of having received the email replies in 1998. They only report having strange deja vu's after April 2001 (when Titor left the boards).

They should have been reporting "strange deja vu's" from the time they would have received the replies in 1998 (they should have actually been reporting them to Titor on the boards given the chronological order of events from their perspectives and that at that time they would know about the email experiment)...but they didn't. They so strongly want him to be the real deal that they even neglect to read what Titor told them about the email experiment: he told them that they wouldn't receive the emails but some alternate world "them" might benefit from the experience. There's nothing in their tales that connects the dots between Titor and their strange deja vu's.

Most of the post Titor theories are tautological in nature...no matter what occurs the outcome "proves" that Titor was a time traveler. The prime example being that if there's a civil war he's a time traveler - if there is no civil war he's a time traveler who had a successful mission. It's gone beyond a scientific inquiry - it's a religion for a few people.

You should look very closely at precisely what Titor said when looking at "predictions." It's amazing what people believe that he said versus what he actually said. So, don't data mine them - just read them literally. Then go back and see how people have placed "deep" meanings on them and end up convincing themselves that he's made successful predictions. An example of a data mined "prediction" involves CERN. All Boomer said about the issue was that CERN would discover a "mystery particle" that would be a part of his gadget. Now, every particle discovered by CERN or SLAC is taken to be somehow related to a successful prediction. Of course, CERN and SLAC are in the business of discovering mystery particles.

John was purposely vague here (as he was with all of his predictions). I firmly believe that he knew his target audience and knew how they would handle his "predictions" - the square peg would be made to fit the round hole. That's probably the most successful prediction that he made.

There's a lot of material to cover if you're going to become fully briefed. On the Anomalies.net time travel board we have an archive of the P2P and Time Travel Institute threads where Titor was posting. The TTI thread is incomplete. Unfortunatey the Titor discussion there was on a single thread. The BBS software that they were running at the time only allowed a maximum of 11 pages per thread. It overflowed at page 12. Raul (the administrator) fixed it but the thread had been corrupted - many posts were lost. But the story is there and fairly complete.

I did notice there was a new user by the name of Pamela. I look forward to welcoming her and hearing her opinions.

They should have been reporting "strange deja vu's" from the time they would have received the replies in 1998 (they should have actually been reporting them to Titor on the boards given the chronological order of events from their perspectives and that at that time they would know about the email experiment)...but they didn't. They so strongly want him to be the real deal that they even neglect to read what Titor told them about the email experiment: he told them that they wouldn't receive the emails but some alternate world "them" might benefit from the experience. There's nothing in their tales that connects the dots between Titor and their strange deja vu's.

That sheds some light on the issue. Thank you. How may members actually participated in the email test? After reading the experiences, it struck me that these statements could be an interesting psychological byproduct of contemplating TT. I would be most interested in what AngelaLadyS has to say on this if she's following this thread.

Most of the post Titor theories are tautological in nature...no matter what occurs the outcome "proves" that Titor was a time traveler. The prime example being that if there's a civil war he's a time traveler - if there is no civil war he's a time traveler who had a successful mission. It's gone beyond a scientific inquiry - it's a religion for a few people.

I wholeheartedly agree that most of JT's story is tautology. That is why it is such a fascinating topic to research! Political scientists theorize that TV has a "hypodermic effect" on consumers, in that programming and ads can be manipulated in such a way that the consumer may feel compelled to immediately change their belief or their habits. I believe the same effect has propagated the JT myth to epic proportions. This effect can also be seen here at ATS if you take a look at the ongoing WhispersInTheDark episode.

You should look very closely at precisely what Titor said when looking at "predictions." It's amazing what people believe that he said versus what he actually said. So, don't data mine them - just read them literally. Then go back and see how people have placed "deep" meanings on them and end up convincing themselves that he's made successful predictions. An example of a data mined "prediction" involves CERN. All Boomer said about the issue was that CERN would discover a "mystery particle" that would be a part of his gadget. Now, every particle discovered by CERN or SLAC is taken to be somehow related to a successful prediction. Of course, CERN and SLAC are in the business of discovering mystery particles

John was purposely vague here (as he was with all of his predictions). I firmly believe that he knew his target audience and knew how they would handle his "predictions" - the square peg would be made to fit the round hole. That's probably the most successful prediction that he made.

Of course, with the publication of the Nature article, its the hypodermic effect all over agian. You have to admit that JT's ghost writer got awfully lucky with that article's timing. It propagated far and wide, in both websites and publications. I would also remind everyone that submitted articles in academic journals can easily take a year to be approved. *hint*

Hi Kukla,

I have been reading this board for a while after someone emailed me about it.

Darby said we should have had dejavues and stuff in 1998. I did.
In 1998 I had a very vivid dream of a man visiting me in a time travel car. It was so realistic I wrote it down in a dream diary. Noone knew of this dream because I didnot have a computer in 1998. John took my physical address with him when he time traveled.
I told John about the dream after he told me he was going to 1998. He didnot comment on it at all.
It was a huge coincidence for me.
And I posted about it on the board. so much for that.
However...I do not remember meeting anyone that claimed to be a time traveler back then in real life.
Unless they didnt tell me they were a time traveler.

Maybe John was wrong about it not affecting your other self. He said his scientists of the time were throwing those theories back and forth.

Perhaps we were some kind of future experiment. I don't know.
All I know is this stuff happened.

The dream was in April 1998. The exact same month and year he said he was going to.

[Edited on 6-9-2003 by PamelaM]