NEWS: 1000's of Korean's Protest U.S. Presence - Violent Clashes With Police Ensue

Line Of Fire

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Please, enough with the poor me posts. You are not your government, and no one is attacking you personally.

We know. It's just that our government doesn't, in reality, care what people post here.

So when ATSers rail at America's evils, the message doesn't make it that far. Rather, it makes it only as far as the eyes of American ATSers.

The net effect of this is that those ATSers who are Americans are the ones left holding the bag in these forums and get the brunt of the anger, and that's what this is about.

There is no spoon, Neo

We know. It's just that our government doesn't, in reality, care what people post here.

Do you think that's why anybody posts here? I would have thought it is to disseminate information to ordinary folks like you and me, to discuss world events with the same ordinary folks, and to together sometimes find the truth of a matter.

So when ATSers rail at America's evils, the message doesn't make it that far. Rather, it makes it only as far as the eyes of American ATSers.

No one is criticising "America's" evils. In fact, I think the comment that sparked all of this lamenting was directed at two, single individuals within the U.S. government.

The net effect of this is that those ATSers who are Americans are the ones left holding the bag in these forums and get the brunt of the anger, and that's what this is about.

So what you're basically saying is that no one should be allowed to criticize the government of any nation unless the speaker is also from that nation, at the risk of offending the reader. Damn, and taking stabs at the Chicom regime was so much fun. Oh well, I guess we'll have to get some Iranians in here to take over the Iran-bashing that is such a popular sport here and in the WOT forum.

[edit on 2005/6/4 by wecomeinpeace]

What you don't see is that the criticism is directed not at you, but at your government.

Thanks for telling me what you don't think I see.

I am an Australian, and the first to criticize my government where it is warranted, regardless of which particular group of thugs and thieves is in office at the time.

Check out this post of mine. Post
I critisise my government all the time. We agree that if criticism is warranted it can be made. The comment that touched this thing off was calling cheney and bush homosexuals which did nothing to add to the discussion other than taking a jab them. That comment was not warranted. This was not the first time that individual has done this on other posts.

The nationalistic seige mentality that you are exhibiting here is exactly what tyrranical governments want.

You have me wrong here pal. You missed my point entirely. My point is that I am sick of some posters here who have to throw in a jab at america or its leaders no matter what the subject is even if it has no relevance to the subject matter.

History has shown us that the sentiment you are developing here, even in this thread, is a very, very dangerous one.

Get real. Get your head back into reality.

Those few who direct their blanket criticism at American citizens, or Australian citizens, or Iraqi citizens, or any country's people in general are moronic simpletons who are doing you a favour by proving their own ignorance with every, single word, and hence are not worthy of a reaction from intelligent, astute people such as yourselves.

I agree with you here. I will throw in another one, those that think they know what others are thinking and proceed to give them what they deem wisdom are imbeciles.

You are not your government, and no one is attacking you personally.

Thanks for telling me something that I already know. So who asked you to chime in on the discussion? Was it your ego that made you want to post trying to degrade someone?

Thanks for calling me an imbecile, I'll add that one to my other scout badges.

I don't want to get into an argument, so I'll just clarify that I don't condone anyone attempting to deride others based on their nationality, which was one point of my posts above. My other point was that Majic's lament and accompanying Op/Ed seem to be insinuating that criticizing the U.S. government is a personal attack on Americans. If this is indeed the case, then I stand by my previous posts. If, as you claim, the ire is purely directed at those who twist any story into an opportunity to attack America regardless of the existence of a relationship, then I support your view and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Happy posting.

[edit on 2005/6/4 by wecomeinpeace]

You have voted wecomeinpeace for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

I want to thank you so much for your post on the seige mentality of some of the American posters on here. I wish I had the ability to articulate it so well

cryptorsa1001 where has your warn gone?

Originally posted by Majic
Line Of Fire

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Please, enough with the poor me posts. You are not your government, and no one is attacking you personally.

We know. It's just that our government doesn't, in reality, care what people post here.

So when ATSers rail at America's evils, the message doesn't make it that far. Rather, it makes it only as far as the eyes of American ATSers.

The net effect of this is that those ATSers who are Americans are the ones left holding the bag in these forums and get the brunt of the anger, and that's what this is about.

Majic you know I respect you so take what I have to say with the respect you know I intend. You and the Americans here on ATSNN own the American government. The American government works for you, you are their boss.

When people like me see all the dubious and down right evil things they are carrying out in your name we want to tell you about it. Why? So you can hopefully put an end to it all.

I've said many times im not anti-American. Im anti-Bush because I can see clearly how evil and greedy his policies are. They are sullying the once good name of America across the world, you cannot deny this. Do you really think the rest of the World is delusional? I "bash" Bush and his constant string of evil manouvers in a desperate hope that I can show Americans what the hell he is doing and that they'll rise up and kick him out and vote for a President that will actually do what he is meant to.

[edit on 4/6/05 by subz]

What I'm Basically Saying

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
So what you're basically saying is that no one should be allowed to criticize the government of any nation unless the speaker is also from that nation, at the risk of offending the reader.

No, that's not what I 'm basically saying, nor is that what I am implying either.

You are free to misinterpret my words however you wish. I can't stop you from doing that, but I can try to help you avoid it.

I criticize my government all the time, and have no problem whatsoever with anyone else in the world doing the same.

In fact, I think it is healthy -- to a point. Past that point, it becomes pathological and obstructs rational dialog.

It is important to bear in mind that when ATSers rail against my country, which is very common in these forums, they are railing against me as well.

Bash Bush and you're bashing Bush. Fine. Go nuts. Blame him for everything. I think it's silly, but people have a right to be silly -- a right often exercised by myself, for that matter.

On the other hand, when you bash America, you're bashing me, too.

As an American, I can and do take partial responsibility for the actions, good and evil, of my country. About 1/280,000,000th of it, more or less.

However, at ATS, that ratio tends to get skewed. Roughly 280 million Americans are not ATSers, only minute fraction of that number.

Moreover, many Americans who become ATSers do so because they share the same interests and concerns that non-American ATSers do.

This can make reasoned discussion of America's many foibles exceedingly difficult when the fingers start pointing. We're the ones exposed to the rancor, yet there is virtually nothing we can do about it.

Whatever nation you may live in, I am sure you feel a similar sense of frustration when someone thoughtlessly bashes it.

I oppose all forms of nation-bashing, not just America-bashing, because nation-bashing is nothing more or less than nationalistic bigotry.

That's what I'm basically saying.

How do you do all this if people associate criticism of their government as a personal attack?

Subz, I assume you meant the above comment for me. I have already posted above that I did not take your perceived comment that Bush and Cheney had sexual relations as a personal attack.

We have more in common than not. If you look at my post banning assault weapons again you will see that as a fact. I do not visit ATS to make enemies I visit ATS to learn from others and share information if I have any to share. I did not intend to get into a fight with anyone. My comment about you doing a threesome with Bush and Cheney was made to show you how meaningless I felt your comment was concerning the two of them. So out of common decency and the fact that I do not want you as an adversary I apologize for my actions.

Government Property

Originally posted by subz
Majic you know I respect you so take what I have to say with the respect you know I intend. You and the Americans here on ATSNN own the American government. The American government works for you, you are their boss.

No, ATSNN's American members do not own our government, though it is a heartwarming sentiment.

We, along with over 100 million other Americans, elect representatives and they theoretically act on our behalf.

The truth is much less encouraging, and there is abundant evidence that, under the careful guidance of those who control both major parties in this country, the majority of Americans are not represented by our government.

Furthermore, our government engages in mass mind control and deliberate deception of the people on a routine basis, undermining the foundations of our representative democracy in the most criminal of ways imaginable

Knowing this, a very tiny percentage of Americans come to ATS, and here we are.

The irony is palpable.

Crying Fowl

Originally posted by subz
When people like me see all the dubious and down right evil things they are carrying out in your name we want to tell you about it. Why? So you can hopefully put an end to it all.

I, for one, appreciate your diligence in this regard. It is important for Americans to know what is really going on in the world.

My recommendation in achieving this goal, however, is to remember who your audience is, and remember that you are not necessarily more aware of the truth than anyone else.

Land Of Delusion

Originally posted by subz
I've said many times im not anti-American. Im anti-Bush because I can see clearly how evil and greedy his policies are. They are sullying the once good name of America across the world, you cannot deny this. Do you really think the rest of the World is delusional?

The rest of the world is delusional only if it believes it is not being manipulated at least as much as Americans are.

The unpleasant reality is that the information war being waged in the mass media and on the Internet is a global conflict, and the minds of every human being on earth -- not just Americans -- are the battlefield.

Forget this, and you become a puppet of those who are waging this war.

I urge you not to forget this.

Campaign Contributions

Originally posted by subz
I "bash" Bush and his constant string of evil manouvers in a desperate hope that I can show Americans what the hell he is doing and that they'll rise up and kick him out and vote for a President that will actually do what he is meant to.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I believe it is simplistic.

Remove Bush and a slightly different flavor of the same politician will take his place.

To lay everything at Bush's feet is to be fooled by those who want you to name him a god or devil -- either works just as well. Doing this gives Bush even more power than he would otherwise have.

You are being manipulated, and as long as you buy into these notions of absolutism in world affairs, you are acting as nothing more than somebody's tool.

Spouting what American ATSers know for a fact to be cynical propaganda at us will not change anything -- except our moods and interest in the discussion.

Step outside the political box and look at what is really going on today -- a world war being vigorously fought on all fronts -- and all this will become self-evident.

Succumb to the siren song of mass mind control, and none of this will ever make sense to you.

Passionate and unwavering skepticism is the only strategy I can recommend for freeing yourself of the control of the generals of the Information War.




[edit on 6/4/2005 by Majic]

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
Subz, I assume you meant the above comment for me. I have already posted above that I did not take your perceived comment that Bush and Cheney had sexual relations as a personal attack.

Actually I meant it as a general comment and not aimed at any one in particular.

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
My comment about you doing a threesome with Bush and Cheney was made to show you how meaningless I felt your comment was concerning the two of them. So out of common decency and the fact that I do not want you as an adversary I apologize for my actions.

Apology accepted and I appreciate it, thank you.

Majic, your basically saying that America's actions (that I know about) are mainly based on propaganda? I'd refute that and say that im rather a bit more discerning than you make out.

Most of the information I use to base my arguments on are from the Western media. I can read between the lines in the pro-Western propaganda our mass media pumps out.

Saying that Bush isnt always in the wrong is to assume something very dangerous. You assume that the problem with Bush cannot be that dire and require this much of a response. How can you accept that there is a problem with Bush but also impose an arbitrary limit to how much wrong you think he is capable of?

I happen to believe he is the single biggest threat to this planet. As such I dont think i've even reached the depths of his scheming and greed. Much less stop posting about it because im taking it too far. Get what I mean?

Don't Cry For Me, In Korea...

Originally posted by subz
I happen to believe he is the single biggest threat to this planet. As such I dont think i've even reached the depths of his scheming and greed. Much less stop posting about it because im taking it too far. Get what I mean?

I think we left Korea some time back in this thread, and don't want to go too much further off-topic here.

We're headed in the right direction in the "America bashing" thread and I would like to move this aspect of the discussion to that thread -- or a similar one.

It may look like bickering more often than not in that thread, btw, but I think it is a very healthy process, and it's going to get a lot more interesting.

See you there!

Majic


Meanwhile, I encourage any member who wishes to comment on this Korean demonstration to have at and enjoy.