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Questions About a War???

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posted on May, 23 2005 @ 08:31 PM
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Where and when does it end?

Dare we speculate?

Can we win the war on terrorism?

I request first that you understand the cause of this "war on terrorism" and all that there is and/or was that brought us to this point in time.

Can you tell me about the Axis of Evil?

Do any of you fully understand the events of September 11, 2001?

I submit to you that since the dawn of this war on terrorism we have done more harm than good to this world that all humans must share.... And for what?

What have we gained?

What have we lost?

Have we made our nations more or less secure?

Think about that one!

Through the isolation and division this war has brought us, could we have only made ourselves more vulnerable to the very kind of terrorist attacks that sent us into a lust for war?

What is the world opinion of the United States of America today?

Was there ever any other options to this war?

Is the war in Iraq a component of the overall war on terrorism?

If the United States of America is attacked by terrorists in the future with weapons of mass destruction who or what nation(s) do we target next?

Again........ when does it end?

Is there anyone among us able to answer any of these questions?

I am not worried about today.. Or even my own future.. It is the future of my own children and the children of this world I am concerned about.

Unfortunately none of us are able to see the future we may create are we?

I ask these questions knowing no one can really answer them... But I’d like to see some try!

Take on one or all of these questions... I dare you!

Though I will admit.. I am expecting few if any replies here.. And even less answers.

The truth is there are a million more questions, and even less answers.. But you never know.. Someone here, or somewhere may have some of those answers.



Gazz




[edit on 23-5-2005 by UM_Gazz]




posted on May, 23 2005 @ 08:57 PM
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"The french ideals of freedom, liberty, and equality have been over-run by the german reality of armor, infantry, and artillery" - said by a german in france, may 1940.

During your westward introspection, please stop by wwii and first try to understand its meaning.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?


I’ll give you my honest opinion. It never ends…its what we do…

The military industrial complex makes way too much money and gains way too much power to allow peace. If it wasn’t a war on terrorism it would be a war on something else. And that’s all I have to say about that…



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?

Does History end?



Dare we speculate?

Of course...



Can we win the war on terrorism?

War on an adjective?
I think not.



I request first that you understand the cause of this "war on terrorism" and all that there is and/or was that brought us to this point in time.

Doing my best as are all of us.



Can you tell me about the Axis of Evil?

Yep.

Members include all countries exercising their sovereignty to do exactly what other countries are allowed to do but for some reason are not "allowed" to.



Do any of you fully understand the events of September 11, 2001?

I believe I do within the framework of my understanding and my own reality.



I submit to you that since the dawn of this war on terrorism we have done more harm than good to this world that all humans must share.... And for what?

I agree.
For what?
Power and control.



What have we gained?

Depends who "we" refers to.



What have we lost?

Again, depends on who "we" refers to.

For some it's dignity, some their humanity and some their lives.



Have we made our nations more or less secure?

All nations are now less secure.

We are all connected.



Think about that one!

I did.



Through the isolation and division this war has brought us, could we have only made ourselves more vulnerable to the very kind of terrorist attacks that sent us into a lust for war?

Undoubtedly.



What is the world opinion of the United States of America today?

If your honest with yourself you already know the answer to this.



Was there ever any other options to this war?

Yes but the chain of events was set in motion long ago by forces not entirely whithin humanity's control.



Is the war in Iraq a component of the overall war on terrorism?

War is killing is murder is war.



If the United States of America is attacked by terrorists in the future with weapons of mass destruction who or what nation(s) do we target next?

Anybody "they" damn well want.



Again........ when does it end?

Again... does Histroy end?



Is there anyone among us able to answer any of these questions?

How am I doing?



I am not worried about today.. Or even my own future.. It is the future of my own children and the children of this world I am concerned about.

I'm worried about my own future and that of many others.



Unfortunately none of us are able to see the future we may create are we?

No but we can make the choices that push it in the right direction.



I ask these questions knowing no one can really answer them... But I’d like to see some try!

Knowing the question is to know the answer.
You ask these questions having a pretty good idea of what the answers are. What you seek is validation.



Take on one or all of these questions... I dare you!

I think that's all of them.

Anything else?




Though I will admit.. I am expecting few if any replies here.. And even less answers.

The truth is there are a million more questions, and even less answers.. But you never know.. Someone here, or somewhere may have some of those answers.

How did I do?

.


[edit on 5/23/2005 by Gools]



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?


I’ll give you my honest opinion. It never ends…its what we do…


Are you saying it is human nature to be at war with each other?

Is peace an illusion or just the stuff between wars?

Thank you KL for taking on that one question!


My challenge still stands.. anyone care to take on any of the questions asked here?

I dare you!


Gazz





[edit on 23-5-2005 by UM_Gazz]



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by Gools

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?

Does History end?


Nice post Gools


Thank you for the reply!

Does it indeed!



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Holy Frijoles, Gazz, you sound more like some warped Jim Morrison psychodelic 10 minute rambling tune!

Rather than answer the 5,001 individual questions that you posed (I just whipped a regular member for that violation of civility), let me answer the general thought process.

Ahem.

What Kinglizard said.




Too succinct?

Okay. How about this?
Pick up a copy of 1984, and study it.

Am I saying that we were not attacked 9-11-2001? No, we were and the attackers were as advertised.
What I'm saying is that what should have been a righteous war against those who did us harm, and will continue to do us harm, is going to be a tool by which the megla-elite will reshape the political, economic and societal landscape of the world.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 12:10 AM
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Sorry about the italics, I don`t know how to fix.


Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?


Probably never.



Dare we speculate?


You can speculate so long as you don`t assume.



Can we win the war on terrorism?



I think so. We have yet to clearly define the enemy. Is it all Muslims? I don`t think so. But whomever thinks that a book is worth more then precious life itself is dead wrong.



I request first that you understand the cause of this "war on terrorism" and all that there is and/or was that brought us to this point in time.



September 11th, I will never forget. Whatever their reasons for attacking innocent civilians, it can not be justified.



Can you tell me about the Axis of Evil?



They are like the bullies in school, on a much larger scale ofcourse.

Pre-war Iraq: Saddam runs a country commiting so much violence against his own citizens. There are only a minority of people who enjoy life because they side with him. Others are tortured raped and killed by the masses. This is something that has to be stopped, it can only escalate if left alone. WMD was the reason for invading and the intelligence sucked, bottom line. But we went in and now we can`t just leave.

Iran is adamant about posessing nuclear weapons. They (not the citizens) are a state sposor of terrorism. They always have been. You just can`t trust them with nukes. I hope the people rise up against their government because if they don`t there will be war with that country some day.

N Korea, Kim Jong is like a crackhead. He is just crazy enough to do anything. We need those spy sattelites overhead constantly. That situation needs close monitoring at the very least.

Syria, I believe diplomatics will work best with that country. They are (not the citizens) the lesser of 4 evils, in my own opinion.



Do any of you fully understand the events of September 11, 2001?



I don`t, can`t and will never understand why people could commit such atrocities. I know people who died, I had family in the Pentagon and in the WTC area. Among myself and friends of the neighborhood, we new many of the brave firefighters who died.

When you attack like this, there has to be swift response. I will never be able to explain the horror of how terrible these acts on are citizens were. It is insane to think that we could just sit back and let it cool over and think mabe the CIA would someday find those responsible. It was an act of war, they declared it on our population. I would be just as mad if they attacked only military installations, but I wouldn`t be so sick over it. There methods are just pure evil.



I submit to you that since the dawn of this war on terrorism we have done more harm than good to this world that all humans must share.... And for what?


In my own belief I think you are wrong here. War is ugly and I wish we could advance as acivilization to the point where we didn`t need to go to war, but we are slow evolving creatures. We need to fight for what we believe is right, and because all these terrrorists no is violence, we have to bring it to them. I personally don`t give a damn about what the rest of the world thinks. I feel they (the terrorists) attacked me personally as well as the rest of Americans. I want them all dead because they want me dead. They would be so happy to catch me or a little kid and cut are heads off. You just can`t let that go. The world needs to unite as one at least to defeat terrorism and violence. If the rest of the world gave a damn it would be easier. But the truth is there are so many of these guys, mostly in the ME that almost everyone who lives in that area knows one. Thats why I said before we need to clearly identify the enemy. It may be much larger then we thought.



What have we gained?


Security. Not a whole lot yet, but I do feel my government is truly and whole heartedly trying their hardest to prevent such another attack from occuring. They took the fight to their neighborhood and threw up massive security procedures in my neighborhood. It has worked so far (knock on wood) and I hope we never let our guard down and become to relaxed.



What have we lost?


We have lost countless brave young lives fighting for us in another land. The debt we owe to them and their families is great. I honestly think that we should actually do something for people who serve our country in time of war and for the families of those who don`t make it back home. I for one wouldn`t mind paying a little more in taxes so that they could live the rest of their lives tax free. Its not a great offer, but I would feel like I am actively giving them something back. I think all Americans should consider this. In the meant time I will offer my prayers and thoughts.



Have we made our nations more or less secure?



See above answer for "What have we gained"



Think about that one!


I did and I do every day. Let`s smoke them all out now and liquidate them.



Through the isolation and division this war has brought us, could we have only made ourselves more vulnerable to the very kind of terrorist attacks that sent us into a lust for war?


First off, we did not lust for this war. They attacked us remember. I don`t agree with G Bush on all his policies but I do believe he took the best course of action following the attacks. I also stand by his word when he said " It will be a long a treacherous journey, we must not waiver, our resolve is strong". I don`t know if those were his exact words (pretty close though). He knew it was going to be tough. Heck, he just about predicted the isolation we are in now. But like I said before, I`m not worried about what the rest of the world thinks, this is very personal, and they have yet to grasp the magnitude of it all. The attacks of September 11th will be nothing compared to what these people are capable of. We need to keep the nukes out of that area. This war is very tough.



What is the world opinion of the United States of America today?



Ok, I care a little bit. I wish they were more on our side. I believe it is much easier to not be on our side. It`s a tough war with very tough decisions.



Was there ever any other options to this war?



I honestly don`t think so.



Is the war in Iraq a component of the overall war on terrorism?



I believe it was meant to be, but that looking back on why is not the answer. We can`t just up and leave now.



If the United States of America is attacked by terrorists in the future with weapons of mass destruction who or what nation(s) do we target next?



I`d guess either Iran, Syria or N Korea.



Again........ when does it end?



Either when they have completely stopped all acts of terrorism (probably never) or when we have competely wiped them out (also, probably never). But what else could we do, just sit back and get hit and hit and hit?



Is there anyone among us able to answer any of these questions?



I have tried my best, in the short form. Go easy on me all you who disagree. Don`t attack me for my opinion, if you have a better answer try to sway me with yours. I hate when the thread turns to American bashing vs. Patriots such as myself. If you have better answers, simply state them without turning this into a my country can beat yours thread.



I am not worried about today.. Or even my own future.. It is the future of my own children and the children of this world I am concerned about.

Unfortunately none of us are able to see the future we may create are we?

I ask these questions knowing no one can really answer them... But I’d like to see some try!

Take on one or all of these questions... I dare you!

Though I will admit.. I am expecting few if any replies here.. And even less answers.

The truth is there are a million more questions, and even less answers.. But you never know.. Someone here, or somewhere may have some of those answers.



Gazz




[edit on 23-5-2005 by UM_Gazz]


I too worry about the future of my children`s as well as yours. I genuinely care about you as a person. What else could we do? We were attacked. I think we are doing the right thing. We can disagree here. That`s whats great about our country. But thats the difference between us and the enemy. They have no regard for human life. They kill their own people as well as ours. They make no sense at all. They bomb the Iraqi police who are trying to take back their country so they can send the Americans home. They keep putting their own people backwards and they don`t care. It`s like evil has just ran mad.

[edit on 24-5-2005 by csulli456]

[edit on 24-5-2005 by csulli456]

Moderator Edit: I think I fixed the formatting problem for you... Hope it works.
Djarums

[edit on 5-24-2005 by Djarums]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 12:12 AM
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Sorry about the italics, I`m not sure how I did that or how to fix it.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?

Which war? Iraq in particular or the Terror Wars in general? The Terror Wars end, short of somethign changing, when there are no "Big Man" ruled states, when most states are under the suzereinity of global organizations like the UN, IAEA, and other verifying/inspection/global development agencies. The Terror Wars end when organizations like Al Qaida, internationalist jihadi criminal organizations, are broken up, and have their resources cut off. The Terror Wars end when there aren't any more states that are run by people nutty enough to permit jihadi groups to operate within it.


Dare we speculate?

Speculation can be useful,, tho working with hypotheticals can be a dead end, since there is a near infinite variety of possible hypothetical situations. And ultimately, human systems are chaotic, we can't necessarily predict how they are going to act. Who, for example, looking at the conflict between the Persians and Byzantium, could've seen peasants from england marching on acre and jerusalem? Or contacts between the Assasins and Templars? But speculation allows us, while perhaps not to form concrete plans, to explore what it is we intend to do and what our interests and limitations are.


Can we win the war on terrorism?

Certainly. Why shouldn't it be winnable?


I request first that you understand the cause of this "war on terrorism" and all that there is and/or was that brought us to this point in time.

The root causes of the Boer War and the ensuing raids of the mobile, loose, cell-organized Commandos were not relevant to the defeat of said commandos. The defeat of the zulu columns in south africa similarly had nothing to do with zulu complaints against britain. The Root Causes of Piracy in north africa and the rule of tyrants in the region had little to do with the US wining the Barbary Wars. I don't mean to say it can't, or shouldn't, be addressed, but I am not convinced its necessary.


Can you tell me about the Axis of Evil?

Rogue States, international law breakers, who trade destructive weapons with sub-state organizations and fund international terrorist movements, and who also represent anti-democratic political philosophies, such as Communism, Fascism-Socialism, and Theocracy(er, ism). What puts them above the others and gives urgency to the situation, is that they are already under relatively intense international pressure. Famine and Economic Strife in NK, along with, technically, a war that never ended with a treaty. Global Sanctions with Iraq, and American Sanctions with Iran, in addition to international pressure to reform. And yet they stay the course of their particular tyrannies. Hence, they are die-hards. Hence, they can not, quite probably, be coerced and made to conform and reform, or even give up support for international terrorist groups, by diplomatic means. Or at the very least, they demonstrate a high probability of not being malleable by such methods, when push comes to shove.


Do any of you fully understand the events of September 11, 2001?

What do you mean? The particulars? The Sequence of events? The motivations and 'justifications'? Or the unravelling consequences?
What I do understand about it is that an organization declared war on the US in the, what, 90's right? Then they attacked US embasies, technically American Soil, technically the homeland itself. THen they attacked the american Military, a warship, knocking it out of commission. And ultimately, they attacked the Big City and the Capitol of the US. 'September 11th', as a short term for a global situation, happened years before Sept 11 2001, the US and West simply didn't realize it, or accept it.
I am reminded, vaguely, of a thing a holocaust survivor said. Ever notice how virulent the Nazis were in their anti-semitism? Seemed strange that there were any jews in germany after they came to power no? Why didn't they leave? Becuase they couldn't beleive it. Why didn't they organize into militias? Because they thought it wasn't the answer. Anyway, it was all shocking, and one holocaust surivor, upon being asked stated something like "When someone says they are going to kill you, beleive them'. NK, Iran, and Iraq, are out and out enemies of the US and West, by their own statements. Bin Ladin is fabulously wealthy, and obviously still supported by his extensive and rich family, and he has said that he is going to destroy the US. The threat alone should be sufficient to destroy them, "pre-emptively".


I submit to you that since the dawn of this war on terrorism we have done more harm than good to this world that all humans must share

Irrelevant. The Duty of the United States is to the Citizens of the United States and to the Government of those Citizens, not the international community or the globe. Obviously those interests and duties overlap.

Doing damage to the world is a vague thing anyway. Is Iraq worse off? How many more people are dying now compared to under hussein with the sanctions? And how many is that compared to it w/o the sanctions but when the Kurds were destroyed? Also, do you think that the Kurds give a dam about the 'instability' in southern iraq, or that they'd accept being gassed in their villages in order to prevent this current instability???



.... And for what?

Victory in the Terror Wars.


What have we gained?

The destruction of an enemy. The intimidation of two other great enemies. A geo-strategic position in central asia and the middle east. And a possiblity that the middle east will have democracy and an open society. Indeed, the possiblity that the ideal of the enlightenment, and its products, the american and french revolutions, will go global, and that there will be a militant global democratic revolution.
When the French had their revolution, they exported it abroad, having the Republican Army march all across Europe, knocking down monarchies and tyrants, and establishing modern liberal democratic states. Heck, they created Germany, for example. Now, the US, possibly, is going to start doing somethign like that. In the Future, the world order will, possibly, be better, it will be as better as Europe of today is compared to Europe of the 15 and 16 hundreds, and in similar ways, with supersitution and ignorance replaced by reason and discussion, and the rule of the Church replaced by the governance of the open state.


What have we lost?

Compared to what? The death rate of american soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan is lower than the death rate of american civilians. Lower. If those men had stayed home, more of them would be dead. And rather than having died in drinking binges, car accidents, plane crashes, etc, while the US was terrorized by foreign potentates who wreack havoc with its population and the US population itself terrorized by the seige mentality and extreme restrictions on freedoms that would have to happen if the war wasn't taken abroad, these men and women have died trying to protect the US, defend the West, and possibily build a really great global system.


Have we made our nations more or less secure?

Before the Terror Wars, bin ladin attacked the US three times, for the embassies, then the warship, then the Towers and Pentagon. Before The Terror Wars, US planes were hijacked. Before the Terror Wars, islamic terrorists (seperate from bin ladin) attacked the WTC. Now, what happens? Bin Ladin scrambles about the mountains of waziristan. Hundreds of jihadis are restrained in pens in cuba. Hussein is in jail, awaiting certain execution at the hands of a democratic secular state. How would the US have been safer in not going to war??


could we have only made ourselves more vulnerable to the very kind of terrorist attacks that sent us into a lust for war?

No, because the enemy needs to be able to operate in large bases to train and plan for these things, and to communicate and network without scrutiny and harrasment.


What is the world opinion of the United States of America today?


]'Hatred and unpopularity at the time have ever been the fate of those who have aspired to empire. But it is good judgment to accept odium in a great cause; hatred does not last long, and brilliance of the moment and fame of afterdays remain forever in men's memories'

Said by Pericles of Athens. What is world opinion of Athens today, if world opinion matters?

Why should world opinion matter at all? World Opinion was more agianst the Iraq War than against the US in general no? I mean, you could favour the US more or less, and still be vehemently opposed to the Iraq War, I mean, fundamentally wildly opposed.
Did it stop it? Did it really even slow it down? No. Neither. World Opinion is meaningless.


Was there ever any other options to this war?

Of course. The US could've not gone to war with iraq, and not even gone to war with Afghanistan. The US said to the taliban 'give up bin ladin', they responded 'demonstrate that he did it'. The US could've taken the case to an international court, even an ad hoc one. The US could've avoided war altogether. But consider everything that has been done in the name of security so far, and then consider that thats with the enemy on the run and broken up and without any more big attacks. What would Patriot III (for example) look like after a release of nerve gas in silicon valley, a bombing of the statue of liberty, or a mini epidemic of small pox in New Orleans?? We wouldn't even be discussing any sort of scandal over 'sneak and peak warrants'.



Is the war in Iraq a component of the overall war on terrorism?

I fail to understand how its not. Iraq is an enemy of the US; its not a friend, its not an ally, its not neutral, its an enemy. A bound one, but still an enemy. It permited terrorists to train in its terrority, training on plane fuselages none the less. It had chemical weapons, and didn't demonstrate that it had destroyed them, not to Scott Ritter, and not to Hans Blix. And if you want to talk about root causes being poverty, tyranny, and the politcal and psychological emasculation of arabs, then you talk about Hussein's Iraq. So since they are a regional power providing at least some cover to international terrorists and repress their own people and, indeed, are a fundamental block to democratic reform in the region, how are they not part of the war on terror? I mean, after Afghanistan, who else? Its either Iran or Iraq.


If the United States of America is attacked by terrorists in the future with weapons of mass destruction who or what nation(s) do we target next?

If the US suffers a Big Attack, like 911 or some such, then those responsibly for the attack itself are attacked, and the progress on removing the states and institutions that are breeding grounds for these attacks continues. Afghanistan was a direct attack, a counter attack. Iraq was a pre-emptive and world ordering attack.
If the US is attacked with actual WMD, ie a largescale military chemical weapons attack, a real biological attack, or an actual nuclear detonation (lets exclude dirty bombs for the moment), then things are different.
WMD attacks can only be responded to with Massive Attack and Nuclear Attack. If the US is actually attacked with WMDs from terror groups, then it must respond with the Launch of thermonuclear missiles at enemy capitols and military installations, the Invasion of US-SK-Japanese troops into North Korea, the Nuking and Invasion of Iran from troops in afghanistan and Iraq, the invasion of waziristan (unless the Pak Army agrees to invade), the nuking of Damascus, the Unleashing of the lapdog which is Israel, which whill invade and occupy Egypt, Lebanon, and the arabian penninsula, and the herding of all members of any resistance, from the militias to the towns, from Aleppo to Kabul, into concentration camps.


Again........ when does it end?

Complete Victory. Similar to WWII and WWI. Unconditional Surrender is a minimum. Complete defeat is a necessity.


[edit -coding was mucking with format; corrected -nygdan]

[edit on 24-5-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?

If I knew that...I would be psychic.


Dare we speculate?

No, that is dangerous..


Can we win the war on terrorism?

Most likely not. It's like the "war on drugs". It's going to continue because there will always be those with opposing values.


I request first that you understand the cause of this "war on terrorism" and all that there is and/or was that brought us to this point in time.

Can you tell me about the Axis of Evil?

Per the State of the Union adress in 2002, it was North Korea, Iran and Iraq that made up the "Axis". These are all countries that have been seeking to make or purchase WMDs. The belief is that they would use them or sell them to a group that might.


Do any of you fully understand the events of September 11, 2001?

Does anyone? I think I have a better than average understanding.


I submit to you that since the dawn of this war on terrorism we have done more harm than good to this world that all humans must share.... And for what?

How so? We have taken the Taliban out of power in Afganistan as a result. They killed women for wanting to read. A quote from a women's health survey: "According to the study, women surveyed by PHR in Taliban-controlled areas almost unanimously expressed that the Taliban had made their life "much worse" (94-98%), attributing their declining mental and physical health to Taliban policies. The majority of respondents described their physical (63-87%) and mental (54-85%) health as “fair” or “poor.” Significantly, a majority (57-86%) of women still living under Taliban rule in Afghanistan attributed their symptoms directly to Taliban official policies towards women, despite the presence of armed conflict, devastating poverty, and underdevelopment."

Taking them out of power was harmful? We also removed a regime in Iraq (although not as part of the war on terror in my opinion) that commited crimes against it's own people and the people of Iran and Kuwait, the latter of which was attacked and looted for no other reason than conquest.


What have we gained?

I would think the gains have been more for the women and children in Afganistan and the people of Iraq. Perhaps some stability for the country of Kuwait knowing that tanks won't roll across their border again, intent on conquest.


What have we lost?

Well, from my perspective...we have lost our resolve due to many things. Perhaps the terrorists will win by convincing our own people that their values of freedom and the dream of a free and safe world is wrong to have. We don't care about race or religeon, but we do care if you kill people...especially ours. I guess that is wrong. Certainly taking action is wrong.

The world is not sanctuary where everything is love and flowers as many want to believe. No Shangri-La with fluffy bunnies and white clouds like pillows. This is the world, the real world - violent and uncertain.

People seek to to visit death and destruction on others, so is it wrong to rid the world of them? An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life. When a mad dog kills a child, you kill the dog. But when a man commits the blackest sin, why must we rationalize and sermonize? And when someone does something about it, what is heard?

"Did you have to kill them?"
"Was there a need for such violence?"

It is a question of balance. If a man throws food on the fire, who will have pity on him when he runs around shouting "I'm starving"? So it is with the killer who deals in violence and death, theft and pillage.


Have we made our nations more or less secure?

Matter of perspective. We made things more difficult for those wishing harm, but there will always be holes in any security.


Through the isolation and division this war has brought us, could we have only made ourselves more vulnerable to the very kind of terrorist attacks that sent us into a lust for war?

I wouldn't call it a "lust for war" personally. Our nation felt strongly about it after 9-11 and the President made it very clear then, that this would be a long effort. The people of the microwave-press-a-button-its-done generation seem to think because it took more that a few months...it should be over now and they no longer support it. Do you think giving up and fighting from within makes us safer or more vulnerable? Do you think a good terrorist method is to destroy the will and moral of their enemies?


What is the world opinion of the United States of America today?

Essentially the same...hated. The USA has always been percieved as ignorant, meddling, and bossy in many ways. That perception only changes when a country needs help either from money or support. The USA is the "ex-husband" of the world...hated yet needed when the chips are down.


Was there ever any other options to this war?

Sure, never ending diplomacy. Only problem is that terrorist don't care. They would kill regardless. We are now in a kill or be killed situation (since 9-11). Seems many people would now like us to be killed as pacifists than to actually fight back for our beliefs.


Is the war in Iraq a component of the overall war on terrorism?

In my opinion, sort of. We had a country that attacked Kuwait for power and we pushed them back to their own country, not unlike Germany in WWII. Iraq had sanctions and was to comply with UN inspections as a result, not unlike Germany in WWII. They stalled for 10+ years and the world seemed ok with that. Especially the countries that were being paid with oil or property such as France and Russia. When your taking a payoff...it usually is so you will look the other way.

We also had (flawed) intel that suggested Iraq might make or purchace WMDs at that time. If you were told a teacher "might" shoot your child at school and you knew there had been prior instability, would you go and take action or would you not? What if you were wrong? Your child lives or your child dies. What if you took no action? Would you still feel you did the right thing?


If the United States of America is attacked by terrorists in the future with weapons of mass destruction who or what nation(s) do we target next?

I don't think it's nation that gets attacked unless we find that a nation has supported the terrorist group on some level (funding, weapons, or support). If France sold WMDs to a terrorist group and helped them use it in the USA through funding and support, would you be still debating taking action or not? If diplomacy failed or was being stalled for YEARS?


Again........ when does it end?

Repeat question...see above.


Is there anyone among us able to answer any of these questions?

Is there anyone who would listen to another view anyway?


I am not worried about today.. Or even my own future.. It is the future of my own children and the children of this world I am concerned about.

Would you rather that they die tommorow due to inaction today? That is the possibility, is it not?


Unfortunately none of us are able to see the future we may create are we?

Right, so do we take action or not? It's a moral dilemma. Pop quiz hotshot...


I ask these questions knowing no one can really answer them... But I’d like to see some try!

OK.


Take on one or all of these questions... I dare you!




Though I will admit.. I am expecting few if any replies here.. And even less answers.

Surprise!


The truth is there are a million more questions, and even less answers.. But you never know.. Someone here, or somewhere may have some of those answers.

Don't know that I have the truth, just one view.

Your questions center around opposing groups clashing over values. It has been happening since the beginning of mankind in one form or another. Each group believes itself "right" because it is supporting the values it believes in. That is the way of things.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Okay. How about this?
Pick up a copy of 1984, and study it.

Am I saying that we were not attacked 9-11-2001? No, we were and the attackers were as advertised.
What I'm saying is that what should have been a righteous war against those who did us harm, and will continue to do us harm, is going to be a tool by which the megla-elite will reshape the political, economic and societal landscape of the world.




Damn TC.

I couldn't have said it better. Now if I could just straighten you out on this whole "Christian Nation" thing



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 01:03 PM
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You'll have to straighten out the likes of Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and John Jay loooong before you get to me. As they are all now deceased, you're going to have to wait until you get to the other side to do that. As I don't know that they all were Christians, but some might have only felt that the ethics and principles of Christianity were the best foundation for the new nation, I can't say for a fact that they'll all be in the same place!



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by UM_Gazz

Are you saying it is human nature to be at war with each other?

Is peace an illusion or just the stuff between wars?

Thank you KL for taking on that one question!


My challenge still stands.. anyone care to take on any of the questions asked here?

I dare you!


Gazz

[edit on 23-5-2005 by UM_Gazz]



Well incase you haven't noticed a war or conflict pops up every 10 years or so give or take. So I do beleive that peace is just the thing in between.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Great posts everyone


I'd like to see more.. I think much can be learned about how we think and how we are influenced by the media, and the people we interact with, through the answers posted to these questions.

I hope we can get a few more replies! Again.. answer one, or all.. or as many as you like.. or just comment on anything you've read in this thread.

Next?



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 04:55 PM
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wars are never ended as long as human race is living.

u can speculate but it aint gonna do anithing.

we can win on war against Al Qaeda and other link groups if you are motivated. we won against the Soviet Union but it took half century. it takes patience.

Axis of Evil=Iran, Iraq, North Korea.

i definitely know wat happened on 9/11 but i dont have the feelings to those families who lost love ones. u can never feel how those families feel.

wat have we gained? probably more aware how dangerous Islamic fundamentalism is. and deaths of Al Qaeda members and more intelligence on the group and links by other groups.

wat have we lost? nothing yet.

nation more secure? possibly but its better to feel like there is another terrorist attack everyday so it keeps u aware.

not really. people really cares about protecting the country even if divided.

opinion on America is low but who aint surprise?dats how life is for the rest of the world they got their own problems.

any options? dont know, we use sanction over a decade against Saddam but it didnt do much.

Iraq is important since its like a magnet for terrorists instead of having America being the magnet.

if America is attacked by WMD, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

never ends with human race living.





[edit on 24-5-2005 by deltaboy]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Where and when does it end?

Dare we speculate?

Can we win the war on terrorism?


That's like trying to win the war on bad - it just doesn't happen. You make progress. Maybe a little, maybe a lot, but you make progress. Hopefully, anyway. You will never truly rout all the evil from the world (barring a globe-spanning nuclear holocaust, but, you know, besides that) and you must learn to accept that. That's no reason, of course, to not continue the fight, and to fight as hard as possible, it's just perspective. Not to get cliché on you, but it's the old problem of Good can't exist without Bad; we can't do our service in this world if we don't have an enemy.

An even better analogy would be the Hedonistic Paradox, one of my favorites. This paradox states that when you pursue happiness, you are miserable. It is only by pursuing something else that you are truly happy. We can't win the war by trying to fight it, but we can succeed in other, more subtle ways. No, there is no end, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.



Can you tell me about the Axis of Evil?


I can tell you all about the Axis of Evil. Population statistics, land areas, GDPs, GNPs, entire histories, etc. But you can look that up, no? (Yes, I'm pretty sure I missed the point of this question, but it does answer it.)


Do any of you fully understand the events of September 11, 2001?


Can we ever fully understand anything in history?

I can tell you I understand a lot. September 11th was my fourth day of high school, a high school two blocks away from the World Trade Center. I had the unfortunate displeasure of seeing that day's events go down. (world's worst pun? maybe.) I also read the entire 9/11 Comission Report when it came out (cover to cover, two days!). It was an excellent read, and I recommend it to anyone who can read and has some sort of interest. I read heavily, especialyl for pleasure. I read at least three newspapers a day, and countless online sources. I follow the events very carefully, politics as well. I dominate my classroom discussions, and can at any time argue my views. I understand a lot. Most importantly, however, I find myself to be especially objective on the issue, as I am with most issues, compared to those around me. I have what some might call perspective. (it can kill ya!
)



What have we gained?

What have we lost?


The answer to the former is far less tangible, which is one of the reasons some reports seem grimer than the truth. It's much harder to quanitfy the downthrow of a dictator, whereas it is very easy to count dead bodies. You need to answer the latter, not us, if you're trying to make a point other than an interesting investigation into opur psyche.



Have we made our nations more or less secure?

Through the isolation and division this war has brought us, could we have only made ourselves more vulnerable to the very kind of terrorist attacks that sent us into a lust for war?


Yes. And no. We've made ours, at least, and plenty of others, more secure but are opening ourselves to more attacks. The two are not mutually exclusive. To make an RPG analogy, when you get from level 2 to level 10, you have stronger armor but the attacks do more damage and happen more often.


What is the world opinion of the United States of America today?


Well, I'm not the world, try as I might, but from what I hear, not too great.


Was there ever any other options to this war?


Were.
And yes. From not doing anything to nukes. But moderation (heh) is always best. Perhaps we could have been more moderate initially, but there were plenty of unknown factors at the time. The response from the world was hard to judge, we don't know if waiting longer before taking action would have made anything easier, or worse. To present another option, we could have had a better game plan, but, well, yeah no "buts" to that one.


Is the war in Iraq a component of the overall war on terrorism?


Maybe not initially, but we certainly made it part of it. By going in there, whether they were terrorists or not, Iraqis attacking us are terrorists now. Instead, Iraq could have been an eventual stop in the "War on Crappy Governments," right after we get rid of Democracy.


If the United States of America is attacked by terrorists in the future with weapons of mass destruction who or what nation(s) do we target next?


RUSSIA! Err... whoever is responsible? Whoever is responsible for those responsible, whoever helped, whoever stood idly by, and so on and so forth with varying degress of "targeting," from war to "hey, not cool."



I am not worried about today.. Or even my own future.. It is the future of my own children and the children of this world I am concerned about.


I'm personally worried less for my children (I am young, for what that's worth) but rather more concerned with the fate of the world, the planet, and the race. I don't want us to take any number of paths down a slippery slope, I want the human race as one to make the right decisions for further preservation. That's what I'm worried about not happening.


Unfortunately none of us are able to see the future we may create are we?


No, but that's why we try, that's why ask and why we do. We try and shape the world the way we think it should be shaped, and hopefully enough people agree with you so that your little effort becomes a huge movement. Hopefully, that's how the world ends up, even though you won't ever know it. But we try.

And now, Gazz, I want to know - what do you want? What do you want to happen to this world, to Terra. How do you want it to exist in 50, 100, 10,000 years? Why? And, more importantly, how do you plan to get there? What steps need to be taken to reach that point?



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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Nothing that is going on in the world today is new, perhaps the motives, weaponry, names, reasons and the nations in position of power have change.

But is one thing that has not and are mayhem, death and devastation that always come from wars.

Conflicts have been part or our human nature since the beginning of time.

We have not learned a thing yet . . . we just used more technology with the same results the death of as many enemies as we can target.

We cannot win what is just an ideology,

We will always find an excused to go into wars,

We can call others nations axils of evil, but they can also use it on us when our actions kill many also.

Everything is very sad, but . . . that is the way of human nature.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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Where and when does it end?


When we all eventually kill ourselves, or mother nature does it for us...



Dare we speculate?


Why not? Not much else to do while spinning around on this ball of dirt...



Can we win the war on terrorism?


No more than we can win the war on drugs. You can't fight a practice, and ever "win".



Can you tell me about the Axis of Evil?


Sure, you can't fight an illegal war without creating bad guys. Somebody has to wear the black hat....



Do any of you fully understand the events of September 11, 2001?


Sure, an insane whacko who believes he's on a mission from his god to feed his ego, actually has a few equally whacko followers succeed out of numerous attempts, and ends up inciting the wrath of the world's only superpower.



I submit to you that since the dawn of this war on terrorism we have done more harm than good to this world that all humans must share.... And for what?


To satisfy an even bigger ego than OBL, of course. Still, I'm sure there are quite a few formally jailed children that are happy to be free, or those who spoke out against Saddam, now seeing their families, etc. But, the price for that has far outweighed it.



What have we gained?


Nothing really. Except to prove that we can pretty much take over any nation in a matter of weeks, that isn't a borderline superpower, but still can't develop an occupation plan for said country...



What have we lost?


Numerous personal freedoms, our international rep, and just a little bit of what our nation stood for.



Have we made our nations more or less secure?


Is creating more enemies condusive to increasing security? Probably not.



Through the isolation and division this war has brought us, could we have only made ourselves more vulnerable to the very kind of terrorist attacks that sent us into a lust for war?


Not THAT kind of terrorist attack, but we are more vulnerable in some ways.



What is the world opinion of the United States of America today?


About the same as others view the schoolyard bully.



Was there ever any other options to this war?


Of course. One of them would have been to have at least made sure WMDs were there and could be found when using that as your SOLE justification, for example. Also, a full scale invasion was NOT needed to achieve the military objectives, nor was an occupation. Of course, to give some credit, he DID TRY to do this with a decapitation strike, but was simply unsuccessful due to faulty intel...



Is the war in Iraq a component of the overall war on terrorism?


Yes. For one, Saddam was a small potatoes supporter of terrorism. However, Iraq is no doubt intended to be an oasis in that desert, and a stepping point for future actions.



If the United States of America is attacked by terrorists in the future with weapons of mass destruction who or what nation(s) do we target next?


Well, hopefully the group responsible or the nations harboring them.



Again........ when does it end?


Same answer as above.



Is there anyone among us able to answer any of these questions?


All of us can answer, though we may not be right...




I am not worried about today.. Or even my own future.. It is the future of my own children and the children of this world I am concerned about.


I think the # will hit the fan in our lifetime, I'm afraid.



Unfortunately none of us are able to see the future we may create are we?


Sure we can, the signs are all around, and they don't look rosy...

[edit on 24-5-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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eventually the school yard bully gets beaten up



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