Who's lying?

My mother in law is a fundamentalist Christian, and I am a not so fundamentalist (actually almost not at all) Catholic. We get into major discussions, to put it nicely, about all sorts of religous topics.

For one, did Darwin really recount his theories on his deathbed? I had NEVER heard about that before she told me. I did some research online and there are all sorts of "facts" and "evidence" to back up both sides of this story. Does anyone have any good evidence either way?

Another topic is that in the Catholic religion, when we pray to Mary to ask her son Jesus to help us in our times of need, that we are worshipping a false idol. A true Catholic knows that we do not pray to Mary for her intervention, just to ask if she would ask her son to help.

The same goes for patron saints. We have one for almost everything you can think of.

And who came up with this idea that the world is only 6000 years old? I believe in evolution, she thinks I am absolutely wrong.

The major topic of debate is whether or not Mary stayed a virgin her whole life. We as Catholics believe she did. My mother inlaw seems to think that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and in this sense I mean literal blood siblings. Why haven't I heard about this? Is there any factual (or at least written) evidence of this anywhere? Bible does not count by the way, well, I guess it does.

This idea from revelations that only 144,000 people will be marked for salvation at the end of the world is another thing she has passed by me. I have read that too, but come on now, that cannot be a literal statement. What would happen to the 6 billion or so other people on this earth? Johova Witnesses believe that one too. ( i don't think i spelled that right)

All I have to say is that the Catholic religion has been around a lot longer than the modern day idea of Christianity sooo........

And while we are on the subject of religion, I have heard that Mormons believe that when they die, men will rule a planet that is inhabited by a large number of wives, all pregnant of course. Is that true?

Religion can really be silly sometimes.

Come on James the Lesser, I know you will probably read this and I KNOW you will have quite a few "facts" to give me.

Originally posted by seraph5


For one, did Darwin really recount his theories on his deathbed? I had NEVER heard about that before she told me. I did some research online and there are all sorts of "facts" and "evidence" to back up both sides of this story. Does anyone have any good evidence either way?

heresay at best. You either believe the woman who said it, or you dont.
There is no way to tell

Another topic is that in the Catholic religion, when we pray to Mary to ask her son Jesus to help us in our times of need, that we are worshipping a false idol. A true Catholic knows that we do not pray to Mary for her intervention, just to ask if she would ask her son to help.

What did Jesus say to do? Does anyone in the bible pray to dead people?

And who came up with this idea that the world is only 6000 years old? I believe in evolution, she thinks I am absolutely wrong.

The bible.
It gives ages and times that add up to just under 6000 years. When Peter says that a day is like a 1000 years, and a 1000 years is like a day...it is now believed this is what he meant.
Adam was told that he would die that same day he ate from that tree. He died at age 930 years. Day one.
God created the earth in 6 days...the 7th is a day of rest.
Christ comes back at the end of the 6th day...and then rules for 1000 years (last day). Day of rest

The major topic of debate is whether or not Mary stayed a virgin her whole life. We as Catholics believe she did. My mother inlaw seems to think that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and in this sense I mean literal blood siblings. Why haven't I heard about this? Is there any factual (or at least written) evidence of this anywhere? Bible does not count by the way, well, I guess it does.

check that thread
www.belowtopsecret.com...

This idea from revelations that only 144,000 people will be marked for salvation at the end of the world is another thing she has passed by me. I have read that too, but come on now, that cannot be a literal statement. What would happen to the 6 billion or so other people on this earth? Johova Witnesses believe that one too. ( i don't think i spelled that right

)

JWs are wacked.
the 144K is being discussed in another thread somewhere but I cant remember.
Anyway..they are the jewish witnesses that will cause billions to be saved during the tribulation. They will be like the prophets of the OT. If you read revelation it says that the number saved during the trib is uncountable it is so big.

All I have to say is that the Catholic religion has been around a lot longer than the modern day idea of Christianity sooo........

Great. Now you are in the same boat with the Jews who rejected christ, Islam, and Hinduism. They've all been around longer. Im just saying that time is not a good thing to equate with truth

And while we are on the subject of religion, I have heard that Mormons believe that when they die, men will rule a planet that is inhabited by a large number of wives, all pregnant of course. Is that true?

Maybe they should trade with the muslims. They get virgins.

Religion can indeed really be silly sometimes. Christianity is a personal relationship with God and is very different than a ritualistic religion


Do you read your bible much?
No matter what opinion anyone here gives you, the only thing that matters is whats in the bible.



If your serious about wanting to know, then U2U me and I will point you to the right scripture.
Since you are seeking advice from james , I will leave it at that.

For jake 1997:

First off I just want to thank you for taking the time to give me such an ellaborate answer.

"heresay at best. You either believe the woman who said it, or you dont.
There is no way to tell"

Well, according to some, Lady Hope claimed he did recant and Darwin's kids and the doctor said they heard of no such thing. The doctor was present, but who is to say if those who quoed the doctor are telling the truth. I personally do not think that someone who worked their whole life on a theory would recant at the last second.

" What did Jesus say to do? Does anyone in the bible pray to dead people? "

According to the Catholic religion, Mary did not die. She was brought into Heaven body and soul just as did was it Abraham? So, we are not praying to dead people, except patron saints, and they are there because they "specialize" in an area of human suffering or conflict. They ask JESUS to help, we ask them to ask JESUS.


"The bible.
It gives ages and times that add up to just under 6000 years. When Peter says that a day is like a 1000 years, and a 1000 years is like a day...it is now believed this is what he meant.
Adam was told that he would die that same day he ate from that tree. He died at age 930 years. Day one.
God created the earth in 6 days...the 7th is a day of rest. "

Now, let's travel back 2000 years. How many people would have any concept of a billion or even a million for that matter. Maybe, like so many other things in the Bible, the number 1000 is just symbolic for a really long time. We attempt to put God's time in terms of human time and I do not think that is possible. So, 1 day could be a billion years just as it could be 24 hours. But, in my opinion, God is infinite, so why is it so hard to believe that a day to Him is onger than a day to us?


"Great. Now you are in the same boat with the Jews who rejected christ, Islam, and Hinduism. They've all been around longer. Im just saying that time is not a good thing to equate with truth "

I was half joking here. However, I think I do have a good point. The Catholic religion has dogma and doctirne that are the equivalent of oral tradition (oh, I hope I am right about this). It has a lot more than just the Bible because of what has accumulated in over 2000 years.


"No matter what opinion anyone here gives you, the only thing that matters is whats in the bible. "

I do believe a lot of the new testament, however, the old testement is more of a story to me in a lot of ways. For one, I do not believe in Adam and Eve as the story in Genesis puts it. I do believe there was a first man and first one that through the hand of God had the ability to think, to choose. But the made from clay deal, well, I think that means God made us from the Earth.

Hard to take what is in the Bible as the last source for truth when I do not believe that all the stories are factual.



"Religion can indeed really be silly sometimes. Christianity is a personal relationship with God and is very different than a ritualistic religion"

I totally agree with you. I love Catholism, and the relationship I have with God. When it comes down to it, what matters the most to me is my own persoanl relationship with God.







Christ comes back at the end of the 6th day...and then rules for 1000 years (last day). Day of rest

Originally posted by seraph5
A true Catholic knows that we do not pray to Mary for her intervention, just to ask if she would ask her son to help.

The same goes for patron saints. We have one for almost everything you can think of.

Bible does not count by the way, well, I guess it does.

This idea from revelations that only 144,000 people will be marked for salvation at the end of the world is another thing she has passed by me.



I have heard that Mormons believe that when they die, men will rule a planet that is inhabited by a large number of wives, all pregnant of course. Is that true?

Religion can really be silly sometimes.

Don't get hung up on Darwin. If he did recant excellent, if not he still believed a lie.

You don't have to ask anyone to be the mediator between you and Jesus. Because of what He has done, a person who has accepted His sacrifice for sin can go directly to God. God wants to be a Father to any who come to Him through Christ.

The Bible is the authority. If you don't read from it daily, you need to start.

Mormons and Jehovah witnesses are out to deceive, plain and simple. The denomination is a lie.

There are more than 144,000 who are saved for eternity. Those are aome who will feel a specific role in the tribulation.

Religions that are based on lies are deceptive and deadly , and they keep someone away from the truth. satan is out to deceive, so you have to read the Bible for yourself.

Please read what I wrote to jake 1997.

I do not think it my right to tell another that my religion is right, and theres is wrong. Religion may have many faces and sides, to stand and judge another is something only God can do.

The Bible is a wonderful book, however, there are a lot of discrepancies in the Bible and I believe that the translation of the text has made it lose some of the true meaning.

I also believe in evolution. I believe that thru the will of God, we have evolved thru countless centuries to become what we are today. And if I am wrong, then I will never know. Not until I am dead anyways.

I think that what it boils down to is who gets the credit? God or man?

(KJVR) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them

Thats 200,000,000 demons there.
that was written 2000 years ago.

I dont think you give them enough credit. The engineering deeds of the anceints involved some pretty heavy math as well.

About judging religions...

The bible tells you to do it. Paul even names names.
All you are doing is comparing what the denomination teaches to what the bible teaches.
If it differs from the bible...then its not of God.

Im not going to push it beyond this but ..you are right that it is RCC tradition that says mary never died. Its not in the bible at all.

Nor is evolution. If God is really a God...then he can create you 'as is". Genesis says just that.
As is. No assembly required.
Any God that cant do that... is not worth toilet paper

Bing...Bing...Bing....Bing.........

*Script* Announcer exclaims: We have our winners!!!

.....And the "most bias statement of the thread" award goes to:

*script* Crowd goes wild, screaming and whistling
*script* Que 30' x 30' Television onscreen. Show:

By dbrandt
Mormons and Jehovah witnesses are out to deceive, plain and simple.

*script* Announcer: These people believe in their cause. Just like you believe in yours. We all decieve only ourselves. :shk: Here is your award.

:bash: :bash:

*Script* Crowd goes wild. Screams for more.
*Script* Announcer motions for quiet.
*Script* Announcer shouts in his best "Tonigh Show Ed Mcmahon" voice:

..............And the "least bias statement of the thread award" goes to:

*script* Que 30' x 30' Television onscreen. Show:
*Script* Crowd goes wild, insane, tries to rush onto the stage.

By seraph5
I do not think it is my right to tell another that my religion is right, and theirs is wrong.

*Script* Announcer yells above the crowd:

seraph5 is the Winner.... here is your reward for tolerating other faiths and recognizing their right to believe what they wish to believe. :w:

*Script* Crowd boo's loudly.
*Script* Announcer sighs.....Says to crowd: OK, OK, I know what you really want....
*Script* While seraph5 is not looking.....

:bash: :bash:

*Script* Crowd goes wild...Shouting more...more....more....rushes the stage.
*Script* Announcer: Now back to our sponser...... "Who is Lying? The Eternal Debate". Co-sponsered by "Why is JTL not responding?"

......or see next post for clarification.




[edit on 14-5-2005 by makeitso]

Originally posted by seraph5
I do not think it my right to tell another that my religion is right, and theres is wrong.

It would be a sadistic God who would not want a person to know the truth. Since there is only 1 God who is a real God, and that is not an attribute of Him we can rule that out. Jesus Christ wants us to know the truth. So He has given us the Bible so we can find out who He is.

You either read it or don't read it.

If you read it you either believe it or don't believe it.

If you believe it you either respond to it, what God says or you choose not to respond.

If you respond affirmatively and accept Christ then you are no longer stuck in sin, you have been freed from it's power.

God then begins to mold you into what you can truly be, and you agree to take on responsibilities given to you by God Himself.

One of those responsiblities is to tell others about Christ, to pass on what you know to others, so that they realize they must make a choice also.

As a christian, that is one of the things that changes about you. You HATE lies and want to know the truth only. The Bible is the truth about God, there is no way to be politically correct so that everyone gets a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

The Bible is about embracing Jesus Christ as the one and only God.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by dbrandt]

I can agree with the bias award. It was pretty funny. Was i at least a close second?
The mormon and JW doctrine ..is out to deceive. Flat out, not bones about it.
If the bible is the source...then compare it back to the source. Case closed.

If your not bias toward Christ, then your not a christian.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by seraph5
I do not think it my right to tell another that my religion is right, and theres is wrong.

It would be a sadistic God who would not want a person to know the truth. Since there is only 1 God who is a real God, and that is not an attribute of Him we can rule that out. Jesus Christ wants us to know the truth. So He has given us the Bible so we can find out who He is.

You either read it or don't read it.

If you read it you either believe it or don't believe it.

If you believe it you either respond to it, what God says or you choose not to respond.

If you respond affirmatively and accept Christ then you are no longer stuck in sin, you have been freed from it's power.

God then begins to mold you into what you can truly be, and you agree to take on responsibilities given to you by God Himself.

One of those responsiblities is to tell others about Christ, to pass on what you know to others, so that they realize they must make a choice also.

As a christian, that is one of the things that changes about you. You HATE lies and want to know the truth only. The Bible is the truth about God, there is no way to be politically correct so that everyone gets a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

The Bible is about embracing Jesus Christ as the one and only God.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by dbrandt]

Now for one, every single religion believes that they are correct. Christians, Catholics, Jehova Witness, Jewish.......... So, you can say that YOU are right, and everyone else is wrong? For a fact, for certain? See, I have faith there is a God. He created us. He gave us everything alive today and everything that once was. What I CANNOT SAY, IS THAT MY RELIGION IS 100% CORRECT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG!

Have you ever heard about the elephant and the three blind men? Well, here is the story

One day, three blind men who lived together and were friends all their lives, heard that there was an elephant in the area.
"Let us go find this elephant," one of them said, and the other two agreed.
Soon, they came upon the elephant. One blind man grabbed the elephant by the trunk and noticed how it resembled a snake.
Another blind man grabbed the elephant by the leg and noticed how solid and like a tree trunk it was.
The last blind man placed his hands upon the elephant's massive sides and noticed how it resembled a solid wall.

After, they all came together to discuss what they found.
"An elephant is like a slithering snake, contorting and moving," one said. The other two exclaimed in potest.
"no it is not, an elephant is like a tree trunk, solid and round"
"You are both wrong, the elephant is like a wall that rises and falls"

The three blind men argued over this until they finally stalked away, never to talk to each other again.

So what I am trying to say is, WE are the blind men. We are all talking about the same God. And, we see only part of God's plan, a plan that was simplified and put in a way that was understandable to people of thousands of years ago. To say that God is as simple as what is written in the bible, well, I don't think that would be giving him enough credit.

I do not think the writers of the Bible would have had any idea what God was talking about if he wrote "And I created the world in 4 billion years. You started as tiny microorganisms, moved on to this and that......" Whatever, all i am saying is that science as we have it today did not exist at these times. We now know much much more about the laws of the universe, the process in the history of life, all things we came to after many other scientific findings. As our knowledge has expanded, we are beginning to understand some of the mysteries of God, hwo he decided to do things.

God gave us something called "reasoning". We can look at a situation, analyze it, come to a conclusion. He is the one who gave us the ability to perform science, and to say that although science has brought us vaccines, medicies, disease treatments, electronics, everything that you use today, but that science is wrong about everything that pertains to the origin of life, well that is picking and choosing pieces of info that back up what you want to prove.


To sit and say that we are all wrong and you are right, well, that is one of the biggest things of Fundamentalist Christians i have come across that I really don't like. How do you know the Bible is correct even? You say it is, you have faith it is, but all it is is words written on paper. And, there are different translations and books even for each religion. So what makes you so sure yours and only your Bible is 100% correct?

I do admire you for you faith, but be careful when telling people that they are wrong in their beliefs. It is not fair, and I think entirely incorrect, to say that only Christians will go to Heaven, that all nobelievers will go to hell. Who are you to say. And, Jews don't even believe in Jesus Christ and THEY are God's chosen people.


I believe we are all looking at the same God, and it is a human trait to want to fight and argue about whose image of God is correct. And most don't seem to see that many or even none may be the correct idea. Just believe in God, follow your heart, you were given a conscience so you could distinguish between right and wrong, and know that HE did all, sees all, and LOVES all.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by seraph5]

I believe we are all looking at the same God,

I could say that for some. Not all.
Do you know the beliefs of all of those you mentioned?

Is Jesus Christ the son of God or not? At least one of them denies that. Who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh? That is from satan.

Do you worship that God who has no son? Be very carefull when you say that we all worship the same God. The bible says different.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

If you are blind, it is because you dont read your bible. Jesus says your eyes will be opened if you follow him. Mine are open.

I will only ever tell you to read the bible and pray. DO that. Dont tell anyone to stop judging the fruits of 'religions' until you do read it. Jesus says to judge the fruits.

Yes, but not when we have the same basic beliefs. False religions, ie worshipping false idols. yes, the Jews do not believe in Jesus. Yet, they are God's "CHOSEN PEOPLE". So please, explain that one.


I also left a very lengthly message on the "jesus brothers" at below top secret for you.

Originally posted by jake1997
If you are blind, it is because you dont read your bible. Jesus says your eyes will be opened if you follow him. Mine are open.

I think I would rather be blind.

Jhn 9:39-41
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Thank you Raphael. You put that so eloquently.

Originally posted by seraph5
yes, the Jews do not believe in Jesus. Yet, they are God's "CHOSEN PEOPLE". So please, explain that one.

People don't want to give up their sins and sin habits.

Sex for example, sex is for growing a committment and intimacy between 2 people(man and a woman) who are married. This is the boundaries God has established for it. Is all sex performed in the world within that boundary, no it isn't. Most people have strayed out of those boundaries and according to God have sinned. People don't want to give that up.

It was the same 2000 years ago as it is today. Sex was the same 4000 years ago as it is today. People's hearts are the same as they were thousands of years ago. There is no difference between those Jews of 2000 years ago and people of today.

People of EVERY generation who reject Christ do so because He came to deal with the sin problem of mankind. Mankind is seperated from God and those who reject Christ are ON PURPOSE choosing to embrace their sin instead of Jesus Christ.

The Jews were to live for God and by so doing draw people of other nations to God. When the other nations saw the blessings and care God gave them, they would be drawn to God also. That didn't happen. They were drawn into the world and even told God they wanted to be like the other nations. So God let them and removed His protection and blessing upon them.

That is the answer to your question.

Originally posted by seraph5
Have you ever heard about the elephant and the three blind men? Well, here is the story

We are all talking about the same God. And, we see only part of God's plan, a plan that was simplified and put in a way that was understandable to people of thousands of years ago. To say that God is as simple as what is written in the bible, well, I don't think that would be giving him enough credit.

The story doesn't fit Christianity. God called out the Jews to be a distinct people given over to Him. They were to be completely different than the rest of the world. There was to be a contrast between what they believed and did and what the world believed and did. They didn't want to do that. They wanted to be like the rest of the world.

Christians are called to be a distinct people who live for God. If someone has accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit lives in us. We have that extra boost from Him that the Jews didn't have to carry out the distinction. There is a contrast between Christianity and other religions, there's supposed to be. You can't get around it. Your right and wrong and christians right and wrong will probably not match most of the time.


Your comment about the simplicity of God I will agree with partially. I differ this way. God's plan for mankind's salvation and restored relationship to Him, is in the Bible and is simple enough for a child to understand.

God Himself is not simple. He has let us know alot of things about Him through the Bible. The Bible also is meant to show us who we are to become. It is filled with people's successes and failures so that we have example's to follow. It is also filled with direct, to the point instructions from God for living this life.

Do we know everything about God, no. That's why people who come to Him through Christ are going to live with Him for all eternity. Because it's going to take all of eternity to find out everything about Him.

To say that God doesn't want us to know Him is completely false and not who He is.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by jake1997
If you are blind, it is because you dont read your bible. Jesus says your eyes will be opened if you follow him. Mine are open.

I think I would rather be blind.

Jhn 9:39-41
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Those people he spoke of denied he was he messiah

They were blind to that

Mat 15:14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."


Jesus did not preach interfaith anything.
You must believe and repent
You must be born again

Many will come to Jesus and say "But I said you are Lord" and Jesus will say "I dont know you, get away"

Those folks who believe that watered down stuff and preach religion is all the same are in for a rude awakening


Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What does He say?
by their fruits ye shall know them

Now, let me ask you

are you born again?

1Jo 2:22 And a liar is anyone who says that Jesus isn't truly Christ. Anyone who says this is an enemy of Christ and rejects both the Father and the Son.

so now I will ask again

You named mormon and JW's....
JWs deny Jesus is the son of God
That is no different then Islam

That fruit is poison

Originally posted by jake1997
What does He say?
by their fruits ye shall know them

The pharisees did not see because they were too full of the words they read and their own arrogance.

Gal 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The Parisees actually did see but their greed for power caused them to reject Christ.
They were expert in the scripture but could not submit.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: