A preacher, a salesman, and a hypnotist...

This post, as with pretty much all my posts, is an effort in futility. But that's never stopped me before. This post is geared for those that still may not understand why christians have such a deep faith and belief. You will not get a logical answer from a christian if asked why they believe; for no logical answer exists. So I'm here to give some insight from my experience.

A little background so you know that I know what I'm talking about. I attended my first church service at one month old. I attended my last church service at age 17. I went to sunday school and the morning church services. I went to the sunday evening church services. I went to the wednesday night services. That would represent 4 separate services per week for 17 years. That's about 3,500 services. I've been to about 40 different churches in about 5-7 different denominations. Even went to a jehovah's witness meeting once or twice. All, of course, against my will.

The preacher, the salesman, and the hypnotist have much in common. If you've had the opportunity to go to a group hypnotist session or a sales seminar, you already have some idea about church services. The first thing that needs to happen is to even out the energy in the crowd. You need to get people to follow instructions and move in unison. In a church service it goes something like this...

1. Stand up
2. Pick up you hymn books
3. Turn to page 666 (sorry, had too)
4. Sing in unison
5. Turn to page 435
6. Sing in unison
7. Sit down

The hymns are very soothing and very simple. Organ music and low beat per minute counts. The mentality of the crowd is quickly evened out after a few hymns. This gets the crowd used to taking instructions and acting in concert. It also opens the mind up to be able to receive the message better.

There may be further instructions depending on the church and denomination. For instance, babtist churches have some sort of statement of faith that is repeated every service. The offering plates are passed around this time as well.

Then it's time for the preacher. Many sermons start with a popular salesman technique. I think it's called the "Yes" technique. A series of questions are given that have a yes answer. A salesman might ask, "are you tired of products not doing what you want", "do you want to save money", etc. etc. The preacher does the same.

"Are you sick of the way you're living?" -- "Yes!"
"Are you tired of being persecuted for your faith?" -- "Yes!"
"Do you want to live in eternal bliss?" -- "Yes!"

And many different combinations all with obvious yes answers. This gets the mind in the yes mode. Everyone is either thinking yes or saying yes at the same time. The power of this can not be understated here.

Then it's time for the sermon. Any good preacher has rhythm to his sermon. This is important. You need a good roller coaster rhythm. Monotone will just put the mind to sleep. You need each sentence to flow up and down with emphasis. This gets the heads in the audience moving in affirmative action, up and down. You need movement as well. Some good preachers will move back and forth across the stage. So you have this up and down back and forth motion going on. And you have the group mentality following it. Very powerful stuff. If the preacher notices attention waning he may add some more yes questions in the middle of the sermon. In fact, it's good practice to scatter yes questions throughout. Of course, all good sermons require a guilt factor. So you verbally bring the audience from feeling a little guilty on something they may have done or thought back to them saying yes. Over and over, up and down, back and forth, for anywhere from 1-4 hours. And the whole thing comes together like an entralling movie.

If you have ever went to a theater during the day and was really entralled in the movie you will know the feeling. When you step outside into the sun and reality hits you it's the same feeling after coming out of a good church service. And it better be good because you just payed for it, just like a movie.

This hypnotic effect is very penetrating. It bypasses the conscious mind. Just like a good hypnotist can get you to think you're a chicken; a good preacher can get you to believe in his interpretation of the bible. Now, do this for years on end and you will soon see why you cannot and will not be able to persuade most christians to think outside of the box created by the preacher. Just imagine going to a hypnotist 3,500 times. Or hearing a sales pitch 3,500 times.

I hope that this may help lend some understanding to those that get frustrated with christians. Once you understand how it's done the frustration should slip away. Hopefully, you will also be able to see the futility of attempting to open up their minds to something beyond their beliefs. There's no way in hell that some words on the internet are going to be able to undo the programming caused by going to church. That programming can only be undone by the individual. And it takes a lot of consious effort. Most would rather be fed than to feed themselves.

Well, there's plenty more to it but I think that covers the basics. My only intent is to spread understanding to alleviate some frustration I see in religious related posts.


EDIT: Removed an errant "s". And spelling.

[edit on 4-29-2005 by ShadowHasNoSource]

I am in a wonder,and I will ask this to myself,what do they teach them in theology? The art of seducing people. the vast majority are people are ignorant of theology and religion..so that's why we get bunk everytime..

Brilliant!

Brilliance would also know this is just another thread by a person disgruntled with the Christian faith.

As usual, this will be sent over to the religion, philosophy, spirituality and "This is where you're wrong about my religion" forum at BTS.

Come back when you have a conspiracy.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Brilliant!

Brilliance would also know this is just another thread by a person disgruntled with the Christian faith.

As usual, this will be sent over to the religion, philosophy, spirituality and "This is where you're wrong about my religion" forum at BTS.

Come back when you have a conspiracy.

Yea, God forbid I tell the exact mechanics of how the religious conspiracy is hypnotically induced.

Oh well, told ya'z it was futile.

Well maybe that's how it works in America. I can tell you that church is nothing like that where I go.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Well maybe that's how it works in America. I can tell you that church is nothing like that where I go.

Enlighten please.

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
This post is geared for those that still may not understand why christians have such a deep faith and belief. You will not get a logical answer from a christian if asked why they believe; for no logical answer exists. ]

Church isn't about going and sitting and throwing a couple of bucks into a plate and leaving and doing the same thing next week. It's about learning who God is and what are our responsibilities are after salvation. The church building is a place where people who's lives have been changed can go and people who want a change in their life can go. It's about getting involved and learning that living for God is not something you do for 3 or 4 hours a week.

When you have been changed by accepting Christ and He now lives in you(literally) the goal is to live EVERY MOMENT(and I mean moment) knowing that God is with you in every thought you have, every action you take , every word you say, every deed you do. You are presenting the God of the universe to the world. That is an awesome and overwhelming thought and causes the best that God wants you to be to come out. He should be the first thought you have when you wake up and the last thought that you have before falling asleep.

If you have co-workers at your employment then you could be standing a couple of feet away from them and the two of you working together accomplish a task. Maybe his/her insight and yours together helps decisions get made. But the distance no matter how far it is hinders true capabilities. Things that never get mentioned. Plus you don't know what this person is thinking 24/7

Now when you have accepted Christ and God has taken up residence in you, you are not 2 feet away from God, He's right there with you there is no distance between you and Him. He's not 10 million, billion, trillion, light years away, He's right there in you. He knows your thoughts before you do and can INSTANTLY talk to you and you can INSTANTLY hear Him, and vice versa.

The "church"(people who trust Christ) is about being of use to God. It's about changing from what you were into the "likeness" of God. I'm sorry you never got that part, because that is the part that God wants you to have.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I'm sorry you never got that part, because that is the part that God wants you to have.

That is what I got out of it. Once I mucked through all the fire, brimstone, sin, hell, inconsistancies, limitations, hypocrisy, and general ego of those that claim to know the Eternal and Infinite Creative Source while simultaneously limiting the thinking of themselves and those they speak with.

Of course, I know other people that got the right things out of it. But a quick look around shows that people like you are not in the majority.

I mean how can anyone put limits or definitions on the Infinite? That doesn't make any sense. And to interpret the bible completely literally and believe it 100% makes no sense either.

[edit on 4-30-2005 by ShadowHasNoSource]

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource


That is what I got out of it. those that claim to know the Eternal and Infinite Creative Source while simultaneously limiting the thinking of themselves and those they speak with.

Of course, I know other people that got the right things out of it. But a quick look around shows that people like you are not in the majority.

I mean how can anyone put limits or definitions on the Infinite? That doesn't make any sense. And to interpret the bible completely literally and believe it 100% makes no sense either.

[edit on 4-30-2005 by ShadowHasNoSource]

I'm a little confused with the response, but I am trying to respond further so things can go deeper.

God is infinite, I agree, but He does want us to begin, while on this earth, to know and understand and find out who He is. This understanding does not limit the thinking of mankind, it actually is where we start to learn and will never stop.

When you begin to grow in the knowledge of who God is you become aware of what is truth and what are lies. Lies limit what a person can become. Truth when learned leads to deep understanding and when it comes to knowing God, once He has gotten a truth into our thinking He then moves onto preparing us to receive another truth about Himself and He also teaches us who we can become and what we can do.

I don't know if you know who Tony Evans is, but I read a comment he made in one of His books. He said, "Do you know why a christian will live with God for all eternity, because it's going to take all of eternity to know who God is." Do you grasp that. God is infinite and we are going to live with Him. Every "day" we will find out something new about God as He reveals Himself to us. And we will get to apply this info to what He will have us "working" on throughout the ages and it will change us into more than what we were the "day" before. We will never ever ever be bored. So yah, we will never know everything there is to know about an infinite God, but that's a good thing. That should encourage not discourage.

I am not saying this to puff myself up but I agree there are alot of people who have never been born again like Jesus said a person must be. Accepting Christ is a BIG DEAL. It means a surrender on our part and listening. It means a change from an old way of thinking and living to a new way.

When you read the Bible interpret it literally if possible. If not then something deeper is hidden and even in the literal stuff things are hidden. Example in Revelation ch. 6 it says the "stars" of heaven will fall to the earth. OK, if stars fell to the earth ,the earth would be pulverized into little peices, but Christ is going to return to stand on a physical earth, so there must be something deeper in this verse. If you can afford too buy a Bible concordance it is a very good investment. For when you look up the word stars in it you find out it is referring to angels. Now the verse can make sense. Angels could fall to the earth and it wouldn't be pulverized. By the way it is fallen angels who will come to the earth to deceive.

Start to know an infinite God now, it is possible.

You are getting into the real sticky stuff of personal interpretation. I don't want to get into that simply because it does no good for either person or the people reading. I respect your interpretation.

I'll explain my response thusly. The best counterintelligence is where 99% is truth and 1% is a lie. It makes it nearly impossible to tell them apart at that ratio. My intent for this post was not about personal interpretation. It was about showing (from my experience) that church services parallel hypnosis sessions and sales pitches. I said nothing about God but to connect it for you I would say: I seriously doubt God wants everyone to accept things at face value without asking questions and searching deeper.

I did not mean for this....

You will not get a logical answer from a christian if asked why they believe; for no logical answer exists.

...to be taken as challenge. It is simply reality. Your response was not logical, it was faith based belief. For it to be logical you would have to prove God scientifically. And I fully realize that endevour is impossible from our current position.

If you have more thoughts on the main subject of the thread I'll be happy to continue. I'm not getting into personal interpretation.

Church services (in the U.S.) that parallel hypnosis sessions and sales pitches, has a conspiritorial ring to it despite what certain people may think. That point was not even addressed so it still stands despite this thread being in BTS.

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
Church services (in the U.S.) that parallel hypnosis sessions and sales pitches, has a conspiritorial ring to it despite what certain people may think. That point was not even addressed so it still stands despite this thread being in BTS.

OK, subject material. I Timothy 4:1 & on Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;.............


So God made it known before either one of us was born, that this was going to happen, that SOME would not believe properly. That christianity would be abused and misrepresented. The key word is SOME. So go seek out a church that is correct. No, that would require time and effort on my part, it's easier to complain because I can do that from my own house.

Here's an idea start a Bible study in your house with a couple of other people. Seek out the truth about God. That's how the church I attend started 20 years ago, in someone's house and now there is a facility and 180 who attend on Suanday and other activities during the week.

Instead of complaining do something about it.

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
I said nothing about God but to connect it for you I would say: I seriously doubt God wants everyone to accept things at face value without asking questions and searching deeper.

Well, here is the good news, He doesn't.

Psa 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, [or] as the mule, [which] have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

I did not mean for this....

You will not get a logical answer from a christian if asked why they believe; for no logical answer exists.

...to be taken as challenge. It is simply reality.

In order to believe something to be true, one must collect evidence. When the evidence meets or exceeds a "burden of proof" one believes something to be true. If it does not, they will not. The burden of proof for the existance of God varies from person to person. Some require more evidence than others.

This is the way we come to believe anything to be true and it is perfectly logical.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Instead of complaining do something about it.

My point would be that the church is not only unneccessary but could be detrimental to the spirit if disernment isn't used. My discourse was not complaining. It was an objective analysis of my experience. The sprinkle of sarcasm is just the way I write. You have judged my thread through your own bias. Why not see my thread objectively instead of feeling you must defend your position?

Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."

I know what the bible says. Your quote only insinuates that because the bible says it that my analysis is of no consequence. My analysis wasn't meant for those that use the bible for a crutch. It was meant for those that don't read it. It is not my fault this thread got stuck in the this forum. Now it's destined for a painful death. That last sentence was complaining.

Instead of sitting around reading a 2000 year old book why don't you get out and experience God for yourself. I don't need to sit around beating a dead horse and limiting myself. I've read the bible completely. And just like any other book I move on when I'm done.

There's a whole freaking world that "God" has presented for you to learn from.

Anyway, leave it to a christian to turn things into a battle. :bnghd:

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
This is the way we come to believe anything to be true and it is perfectly logical.

Just because you put belief and logical in the same sentence doesn't make belief logical.

Why do so many require this mental construct known as belief? I don't require belief. And therefore I don't require a defense. I don't need to quote a book to back myself up. I can see from a christian perspective but the majority of them have limited themselves so much they are unable to see from another perspective. By this they are denying God. Limiting God is an attempt to deny the experiences of God. All experiences are valid. All sins are valid. The world is perfect. If you don't wake up and SEE the fullness of existence you will be but a dream. The world is not here for you to resist, overcome or block out. Or to limit.

If I wanted to ask the bible what IT thought of my experiences I would have searched it online. My thread was asking for HUMAN reactions. You know, those organic constructs that get stuck so easily on one train of thought while missing out on the ineffable infinity of existence.

The reactions to this thread (minus the first post) were defensive. What is it that requires your defense? God? Please think about that.

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
My point would be that the church is not only unneccessary but could be detrimental to the spirit if disernment isn't used.

Instead of sitting around reading a 2000 year old book why don't you get out and experience God for yourself. I don't need to sit around beating a dead horse and limiting myself. I've read the bible completely. And just like any other book I move on when I'm done.

There's a whole freaking world that "God" has presented for you to learn from.

I guess I should have asked first what your definition of "church" is. The catholic curch, or the physical building, or true believers from all over the world, or the idea of a meeting place where organized services are, or that there is a God, etc.

Could you narrow it down.

There is a thing about the Bible, You can't read it once though like other books and get all there is to know from it. You could read a verse 100 times and on the 101st time God will show you something new. As a christian we live in the world, and try to make an impact for Christ on it. I think that's different than what you are talking about.

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
Just because you put belief and logical in the same sentence doesn't make belief logical.

Why do so many require this mental construct known as belief? I don't require belief.

The reasoning prior to that statement made belief logical.

You simply fool yourself if you believe you do not require beliefs. For example, when you stated that "no logical answer exists" that was a belief. The evidence you had of the existance of a logical answer did not reach your burden of proof, therefore you believed that such an answer did not exist. If it were not for this belief, you would not have made the statement.

The reactions to this thread (minus the first post) were defensive. What is it that requires your defense? God? Please think about that.

Defensive because they disagree with your perception? Or defensive because they defended their beliefs? I did not defend anything I believed in my first post. In fact I defended something you said, and then shared my thoughts on how beliefs are logical. You on the other hand were quite defensive when I pointed it out. What is it that required your defense?

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
The reasoning prior to that statement made belief logical.

I can take very logical steps to jump off a building. That does not make the jumping logical.

You simply fool yourself if you believe you do not require beliefs.

Who says?

For example, when you stated that "no logical answer exists" that was a belief.

Taken out of context. In the context of human society the statement is correct.

The evidence you had of the existance of a logical answer did not reach your burden of proof, therefore you believed that such an answer did not exist.

Belief is what you attributed to it. I deal in relative probability. My posts do not represent belief. They represent different planes of understanding based on the subject matter and the general audience.

If it were not for this belief, you would not have made the statement.

Incorrect. Please read the disclaimer in my signature. This thread was originally posted in ATS under Conspiracies in Religion. The general tone of the thread was meant for the general audience of that forum. The sarcastic points were meant for humor based on the audience. The general statements were also meant for a less religious audience.

Defensive because they disagree with your perception? Or defensive because they defended their beliefs?

I did not defend anything I believed in my first post. In fact I defended something you said, and then shared my thoughts on how beliefs are logical. You on the other hand were quite defensive when I pointed it out. What is it that required your defense?

Defensive because they weren't rebuffed based on verifiable experience or evidence. It was based on feeling. Then it goes on a personal interpretation of God and what God thinks and what God does and where God is and how far away God is. If I had posted this in this forum I would have expected it and probably constructed my post differently.

All your original post did was further steer the thread off target. And I'm at fault as well for taking the bait.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I guess I should have asked first what your definition of "church" is. The catholic curch, or the physical building, or true believers from all over the world, or the idea of a meeting place where organized services are, or that there is a God, etc.

Could you narrow it down.

Look at my original post. Can you verify or discount from personal experience if what I stated was correct while leaving out the statement concerning belief not being logical? My specific focus was church services of a good part of the denominational spectrum within the United States.

There is a thing about the Bible, You can't read it once though like other books and get all there is to know from it. You could read a verse 100 times and on the 101st time God will show you something new. As a christian we live in the world, and try to make an impact for Christ on it. I think that's different than what you are talking about.

It was a general statement. With something like 3,500 separate services (can't think of a better word to include sunday school) I'm certain I've read many parts of the bible many times over. Church was like school. It was a bunch of people attempting to teach me something I didn't need to be taught. Not the point though. Can you verify or discount the parallels I've drawn given actual experience?

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
I can take very logical steps to jump off a building. That does not make the jumping logical.

Just to repeat what you actually said: "You will not get a logical answer from a christian if asked why they believe; for no logical answer exists." I did explain quite logically why people believe. Now you are arguing whether what they believe is logical, and not whether the reason why they believe is logical.

Taken out of context. In the context of human society the statement is correct.

In context: "You will not get a logical answer from a christian if asked why they believe; for no logical answer exists."

I say to you quite plainly, I, as a Christian believe because the level of evidence I aquired met or surpassed my own personal "burden of proof".

You were not clarifying the context, you were adding to the context.

Placed in the context of society, an accurate statement would read: You will not get a logical answer from a christian if asked why they believe because many/most have not logically considered why they believe.

Belief is what you attributed to it. I deal in relative probability. My posts do not represent belief. They represent different planes of understanding based on the subject matter and the general audience.

www.m-w.com - belief
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

That you chose a method of assigning probabilities to give your belief more structure is moot.

Incorrect.

Yep I was. One does not need to believe something to be true to write it.

Defensive because they weren't rebuffed based on verifiable experience or evidence. It was based on feeling.

There are 3 ways of assigning probabilities. The classical approach, the relative frequency approach, and the subjective approach. You discount the third as viable because it relies on personal judgement. But, personal judgement does not make it less viable, simply less verifiable.

But I do understand what you saying.

All your original post did was further steer the thread off target. And I'm at fault as well for taking the bait.

Actually, it is not off target. This one statement gives the rest of your argument the link between correlation and causation. If there were no other cause, then the correlation is more likely to be the true cause.

In effect, you use a false premise to further obscure your "Correlation implies causation" fallacy (cum hoc ergo propter hoc).

[edit on 3-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Also to note, you failed to take into account Roman Catholic Mass, which from my memory does not fit your model and Roman Catholics account for more than half of the Christians.



[edit on 3-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]