A Second American Revolution

Do you think that a second revolution in America is possible.

I have been wondering about this and been deeply disturbed by the actions of our government.

The PATRIOT act is supposedly designed for terrorism, yet it includes powers over US citizens.

In the context of a new revolution, it is possible that terrorism is just a red herring , and the PATRIOT act is really aimed at US citizens trying to organize for change.

If anyone started organizing any revolutionary group, something I think is an implied right in the bill of rights, they could be immediately spied upon and arrested without charges.

Now obviously this is just a thought experiment on my part, I think our government would have to be outright fascist before we'd see the populace desire a revolution. We are too comfortable and too complacent to try anything like that in the present day.

It is an interesting thought, however, and our government while perhaps truly trying to battle terrorism, may be opening the door to a fascist police state. If the foundations are there it could only be a matter of time until someone takes it that far.

So, can anyone out there think of a possible scenario for a second american revolution?

What do you see as the final step that would unite the populace? And how do you see it being carried out?

Disclaimer: I'm not a communist, nor a "leftist anti-american". I was reading a book about a fictional future fundamentalist government in the US and it's second revolution and it got me thinking, so please regardless of your politics, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

read some books like USA vs Militia. they tend to explain how they started goin bonkers on each other.

As it stands right now, the US is way too big, has way too many people, and is a mix of way too many cultures/ideas/beliefs for any revolution to take place.
Plus, life is way too comfortable.

You'd really have to be a paranoid person if you go around thinking about the Patriot act all the time. Or are willing to overthrow the government because of it. Reality is the average person simply doesn't care, as long as it's not affecting them.

I agree that the way things are now, it won't happen. I was trying to speculate on the future. I'm not paranoid about the PATRIOT act, but it does give powers to the federal government that decades down the line could be abused.

With the recent manuevering by the republicans to discredit the judiciary, it is entirely possible that we could be saddled with some kind of fundamentalist government in the near future.

Does anyone else see this? Can anyone else speculate on some kind of revolt in the future?

having a militia is still legal, as is easily recognised by the "Minutemen" in Arizona. training for combat is still completely legal as can be recognised by the many private security forces trained in the US. but, it has always been treason to call for revolution, to incite the overthrow of our government, always, nothing has changed that. here's how the founding fathers wanted it to work- if you have the balls to get up and talk about putting your own government down, you have the balls to handle the consequences, which may include death by hanging, if caught, or during battle.

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Now obviously this is just a thought experiment on my part, I think our government would have to be outright fascist before we'd see the populace desire a revolution. We are too comfortable and too complacent to try anything like that in the present day.

I agree, we are too complacent. However... I am still looking for those willing to help incite revolution. It is not a matter that we are oppressed to the point of insanity; Rather that our thought processes must change, and if something is not done now, then when? When it's too late?

There has already been a second American revolution, you call it the civil war, and a civil war is nothing more than a revolution.

Revolution is the phrase used by victors to make their treachery sound noble.

I absolutely do think another revolution in America is possible. And for all the reasons you stated. In fact, I think it’s already starting to happen. If we keep going in the current direction, I think it will happen.

I’m also not anti-American. I love America! I love my country and I want to see it returned to it's honorable and respectable position in the world.

From the Declaration of Independence:
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
...
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Regarding Patriot Act’s power over US citizens (especially those trying to organize for change) you may have seen this:
Who's Watching the Watch List?
I believe this is much more common that we know. And notice that this isn't a case of mistaken identity. This guy really is on the Watch List with no way of finding out why and no recourse.

Regarding the possibility of a Fascist State you touched on, I’m sure you’ve all read this:
14 Characteristics of Fascism

Originally posted by LeftBehindWhat do you see as the final step that would unite the populace? And how do you see it being carried out?

I don’t know that it would be one large uniting factor. More like the 100th monkey or critical mass. It could just get to the point where people of every stripe have had enough and revolt.

I think the basis or cause for revolution is happening slowly and covertly. So that not many people notice. There are lots of distractions and 'pretty colors'. The people who do notice are called conspiracy theorists and whackos; extremists. They are disregarded and held in contempt. At least part of the reason most people don't notice is because they're afraid to. It's so much easier and safer to think that everything is going to be ok and that our government is taking care of us.

Finally (thank God!), another thought on the 14 characteristics of Fascism:
I personally have seen or experienced all of the following:
- increased use of patriotic and religious paraphernalia,.
- increased disdain for the recognition of human rights.
- a mindset of the need to eliminate perceived common threats
- a glamorized military with domestic agenda being neglected.
- abortion and homosexuality are being suppressed,
- the media is to an extent government-controlled. Protests are not aired.
- an obsession with National Security
- religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders,
- a mutually beneficial business/government/religious power elite is forming
- the middle class is suffering, their jobs being shipped overseas.
- free expression is being openly attacked.
- the are willing to forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism
- friends and associates appoint each other to governmental positions and use their authority to protect their friends from accountability.
- there are fraudulent elections.


[edit on 14-7-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Most Americans are too lazy and apathetic to get out from in front of their plasma screen TV with the 600 channels to go VOTE.

Do you really think that a group of people that cant be bothered to cast a ballot are going to go nose to nose with a Abrams Battle Tank?

We don't need a Civil War to fix America we just need to vote the crooks out, both Parties and replace them with Independents, Libertarians, Constituionalists, etc.

And whenb THEY become corupt (and they will) replace them with others.

Originally posted by fledgling666
...it has always been treason to call for revolution, to incite the overthrow of our government, always, nothing has changed that...

Well, that's not how the Constitution defines Treason...Let's take a look, shall we?
Article 3, Section. 3. Clause 1:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
Clearly, the US Founding Fathers did specify that treasonous attacks are against the United States, but did not include the government itself in that definition. The Founding Fathers have also stated in other writings that if the government itself becomes a threat to the God-Given Rights & Constitutionally-Granted Liberties that the US supposedly defends, then the government itself is guilty of Treason. However, I never advocate any kind of violent revolution, it's the duty of the United States to change the government if it becomes Treasonous to the United States. The government is not the United States itself...It's supposed to be a representative of the United States. When it's failure to perform the duty of maintaining the liberties, rights & freedoms of the Unitied States leads to attacks on our own soil, then that very government is guilty of Treason.
Bush proclaims that the War on Terrorism is for spreading Democracy & freedom...But the Constitution says that the form of government in the US is supposed to be a Republic. The US is not supposed to be a Democracy in the first place, so any "war to spread Democracy" is a lie that leads to the deaths of American citizens, both at home & abroad. The government has always been secretly messing around with the governing structures of other nations...The Contra Arms affair, the CIA being responsible for training Osama bin Laden & his followers in use of terrorist tactics & countless other such acts that have taken place all over the globe. Of course other nations are pissed off at us...The US government has been messing with their economies, social & political structures for decade after decade. The government has been inciting the enemies against us & even training them with the knowledge of how to attack us. Doesn't that sound more like Treason, as defined by the Constitution, than you're definition does?

Originally posted by P8triot
However... I am still looking for those willing to help incite revolution.

I agree that there must be a revolution...But I never advocate a violent one. Better by far to take a peaceful way, but as history has proven time & again, no matter what peaceful steps are taken first, a revolution always comes down to violence. The only way to a peaceful revolution is if the public demands the change before the problem reaches "crital mass" or the "100th monkey", as so adroitly phrased by Benevolent Heretic earlier.
Still, I hope for a different tactic, if for no other reason, to make a break away from the mistakes made in history: The government is, by Constiutional definition, the "employee" of the United States...Representatives & servants of the Public. The tone & tenor of the Constitution & other writings by our Founding Fathers defines & (even more strongly) limits the government to essentially a Civil Service job. If you had employed some jerk who gets out of control, what would you do? FIRE HIM. Remove them from offices that require them to swear (or affirm): "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." It's not just the President who is required to make such an oath...It's all of the highest offices in all three branches of the government.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
At least part of the reason most people don't notice is because they're afraid to. It's so much easier and safer to think that everything is going to be ok and that our government is taking care of us.

And this is where I think the US Public has gone wrong: Like any other employer, we must constantly watch out for the employee...Giving guidance where possible & discipline when needed. For the most part, John Q. Public has failed to watch over his employees & let them run amok without discipline to the point where the only peaceful recourse left is to fire them from their jobs & replace them with people who have a better "work ethic".

Originally posted by Amuk
Do you really think that a group of people that cant be bothered to cast a ballot are going to go nose to nose with a Abrams Battle Tank?

Consider the fact that the US population currently exceeds 92 million people...At most, the entire military represents 2 or 3 percent of that number. Also consider that the majority of the military is spread out around the globe, leaving only a fraction of that number still on home soil. Considering all of this, the real question should be: How could the crooks in government stand up to that?
Not everyone in the US is a couch potato...But, more importantly, seriously deluded & blind to the truth of what the government has become. If even half the population sees the truth & stands up to shout, "You've become jerks & crooks & we won't take it anymore, so you're fired", don't you thnk that would make a difference?

Originally posted by Amuk
We don't need a Civil War to fix America we just need to vote the crooks out, both Parties and replace them with Independents, Libertarians, Constituionalists, etc.

Actually, the 2-party system currently in place both have the same goal: Absolute power over the whole Citizen Body...They just have differing philosophies on how to do it. The key here is that both parties want control over the People, but the United States of America was founded on the idea that the People are supposed to control the government.

List some explicit examples of our rights being taken away without due course. When an issue arises that is of a fundamental threat to our civil liberties and birth rights as Americans you will see the people speak for themselves. Case in point is the recent Supreme court decision over the eminent domain action in the US State of Connecticut. The people responded and The state of CT has placed a moratorium on Eminent domain proceedings. I can guarantee you will see the state of CT change their eminent domain law to specifically correct the recent abuse on CT citizens.

On a side note, the constitution is a document that helps to ensure that our country does not experience the fluxuations that many countries experience with coops and revolutions. Other countries do not have a document that allows representaion and a voice for the people. The first indications things are headed downword in the USA would be blatent "repetition" of decisions by our Supreme court and legislature that contradict our constitiutional law.

Recent Supreme Court decision I write of:
www.leesburg2day.com...

[edit on 14-7-2005 by IntelRetard]

[edit on 14-7-2005 by IntelRetard]

So, can anyone out there think of a possible scenario for a second american revolution?

What do you see as the final step that would unite the populace? And how do you see it being carried out?

If we have another civil war/revolution (a revolution is simply a successful civil war ), then it will NOT be like the last civil war. It'll be more comparable to Iraq, or Vietnam. That is to say, there will not be armies lining up in fields or on the streets, shooting into each other Napoleon-style. In modern times, guerilla warfare is what's used.

Civil war/revolution this next time around will take the form of terrorist-like bombings on important buildings, people defending themselves and their property individually from feds. People should/will stock up on weapons and anything else they may need to protect themselves. Some feds show up at your house to take you away? You would defend yourself as you could with what you had and pray you don't die in the process.

Security would likely be set up in important locations similarly to how it is in Iraq if things got too bad, and then people would resort to firing at security forces from a distance, or placing explosives nearby. Like I said, bombings, etc. It wouldn't be "conventional." Those days are over. The US military is too strong to face head-on.

Having said that, how in the world do you think we alone could once and for all take out our government? We would most likely need foreign help, because I seriously doubt those guys are going to give up and say "OK, you win, we'll hand power back over to you." It's never worked like that in history. This war would just be a long, bloody, terrorist-like mess without help from abroad.

Those are my thoughts anyway. I still don't know how likely outright civil war would be, or how you would define it, but domestic terrorism becoming a problem in order to 'fight the power', so to speak? I could see that happening. I could even see that happening on a very large scale. I don't know what the end result would be, but it's definitely possible.

PS - Yes, living conditions would have to get much worse. A depression, or even sky-high gas prices driving families into the ground could possibly do this. With the debt, China and Japan no longer supporting the dollar, the rising price of gas, etc., you can predict some economic trouble is definitely going to hit us eventually as a result of all of this. And as far as a single unfiying event, personally I think it would be more like an on-going, accumulative type of thing.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by Amuk
Most Americans are too lazy and apathetic to get out from in front of their plasma screen TV with the 600 channels to go VOTE.

Do you really think that a group of people that cant be bothered to cast a ballot are going to go nose to nose with a Abrams Battle Tank?

We don't need a Civil War to fix America we just need to vote the crooks out, both Parties and replace them with Independents, Libertarians, Constituionalists, etc.

And whenb THEY become corupt (and they will) replace them with others.

Easier said than done, since thsoe who are in power now are in there because of our voting. Also let's not forget the atrocity that was Election 2000. Oh, and did you forget that the justices on the Supreme Court have lifetime appointments? When the ultimate question of Constitutionality comes up who do you think makes the final decision?

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Originally posted by Amuk
Do you really think that a group of people that cant be bothered to cast a ballot are going to go nose to nose with a Abrams Battle Tank?

Not everyone in the US is a couch potato...But, more importantly, seriously deluded & blind to the truth of what the government has become. If even half the population sees the truth & stands up to shout, "You've become jerks & crooks & we won't take it anymore, so you're fired", don't you thank that would make a difference?

Isn't that just what I said?

My point, to all those would be revolutionists yearning for a war with the Federal Government that could cost hundreds of thousands, if not MILLIONS of lives, that turning off the tube and stop fantasying about leading your brave rebel band (no doubt made up of your high school cheerleaders) through the rubble that once was Wal-Mart to retake the country from the mean old (fill in the blank) long enough to vote these crooked bastards out of office would be a THOUSAND times more cost effective.

your point about the employee was on the money. If your employee doesn't do his job to you incite your fellow employees to help you take him out in a hail of gunfire or do you simply fire him?

Originally posted by Amuk
We don't need a Civil War to fix America we just need to vote the crooks out, both Parties and replace them with Independents, Libertarians, Constituionalists, etc.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
Actually, the 2-party system currently in place both have the same goal: Absolute power over the whole Citizen Body...They just have differing philosophies on how to do it. The key here is that both parties want control over the People, but the United States of America was founded on the idea that the People are supposed to control the government.

Again we are saying the same thing here.

This is why you vote THIRD PARTY.

I myself am a Libertarian but there are other parties out there, any vote for the Big Two is just a vote for the same old crap

Originally posted by CyberianHusky

Easier said than done, since thsoe who are in power now are in there because of our voting. Also let's not forget the atrocity that was Election 2000.

Maybe YOUR voting, not mine, I voted for Badinark (The Libertarian Candidate)

To be effective AT ALL we MUST move away from the two party system.

To be effective AT ALL we MUST move away from the two party system.

You do understand that this is as likely, if not less so, as people moving away from the tube, as you put it? Badnarik was even arrested for showing up at a Republican/Democrat debate and handing out fliers. Arrested for trespassing on public property, no less. The chances of the two-party system letting one of these guys get in is slim and none. They'd have him shot first, Bobby Kennedy-style.

Amuk, the problem with third parties in America is that each third party is not mainstreamed enough to be in the same level as the Democratic Party or the Republican Party is.

A third party must have a broad, mainstreamed support of the American people, politically on many issues, it must be appealing to them enough to be a real direct challenger to both parties.

Ross Perot's Reform Party came near success in getting a wide, mainstreamed support of the American people but the Dems and the Reps got the majority of American voters over the Reform Party.

It's just a question of comfort and convenience with the American people that both parties have the advantages over the third parties.

Jeffersons original draft of the Constitution as well as the final constitutionl listed the crimes that were perpetrated upon the people. Ill list some of them and you judge for yoourself whether this administration is operating in the same manner.

www.duke.edu...

First, is the call for change:
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a people to advance from that subordination in which they have hitherto remained, and to assume among powers of the earth the equal and independent station to which the laws of nature and of nature's god entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the change.

The Government of the people for the people:
governments are instituted among men, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government shall become destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it.

We will take the abuse for awhile, but only for so long:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, begun at a distinguished period, and pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them to arbitrary power, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government and to provide new guards for future security.

Look at the list of things they were pissed off about back then. See if you can agree with some of it.

1:He has refused his assent to laws the most wholesome and necessary for the public good: Executive order for war.

2: He has erected a multitude of new offices by a self-assumed power, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people and eat out their substance: GW and Rummie have done what the hell they wanted to.

3: He has kept among us in times of peace standing armies and ships of war:

4: He has affected to render the military, independent of and superior to the civil power:

5:For imposing taxes on us without our consent;

6: For depriving us of the benefits of trial by jury; GITMO

7: For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses; GITMO

There are all kinds of points to be made about a revolution. But the draft clearly states that we would rather accept a some discomfort for a good series of time before we go and uproot the entire system. The mere fact that we as a people cannot call a public vote on action in the US is my biggest beef. If the Executive office can vote, then we should be able to vote as a body when we feel we need to.

Government in the US is merely a shadow of business. At the present day, your job and your Government conrol your freedoms.

IF you dont think so....the other day I was taking a walk in Seattle. 6 Bicycle police side by side looking for J walkers. I talked to a homeless man. He cant even sit down for more then five minutes or so without having somone harrass him for a camping violation. I too was noting that I could not just go have a seat somewhere without being considered to be loitering. Is that freedom? Is that Liberty? We are strangling ourselves with our own controls.

Peace

When I think about a revolution ever happening, I look at all the shady characters on ATS who are the ones calling for a revolution. Then I think, "If they're successful, it'll be people like THEM in charge when it's all over!" Then I pray that there is never a revolution!!!

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by CyberianHusky

Easier said than done, since thsoe who are in power now are in there because of our voting. Also let's not forget the atrocity that was Election 2000.

Maybe YOUR voting, not mine, I voted for Badinark (The Libertarian Candidate)

To be effective AT ALL we MUST move away from the two party system.

While that's probably true, I haven't yet found a third party candidate that I feel can properly lead the country. And under the current climate I can proudly say "at least I didn't vote for Bush." Just because you voted for a Libertarian doesn't mean you are out of the collective "we" on this one. It's an unfortunate dilemma. If you want to get away from a two party system you have to support a third party. But if you cast your vote for a third party candidate then you are, in essence, throwing away your vote in a two party system.