Idiot school counselor changes Pledge of Allegiance

Originally posted by stumason
Why do you have flags and Pledges of Allegiance in School? Is that not a little bit facist?

Nationalist, not fascist really. What would be wrong with it either way?

"Patria est communis omnium parens", the fatherland is the common parent of us all, no?

(Homeland....LOL...such bollocks... Most of America's true homeland lies on the European continent.

I rather like the 'homeland' distinction. The Britishers have the Mother Country, the germans the Fatherland, the Americans the Homeland.

Wherever the Brits originally came from, that's what they are.

Indeed, the term "British" doesn't simply mean people who are native to the island of britain. People in northern ireland can call themselves british no?
And as far as being the aboriginal peoples of a place, what does that matter? The amerindians were a collection of migrants that came to north america in sepearet waves of immigration.
Or the English, they're a collection of different peoples, angles, juts, saxons, with Normans thrown in later, lots of danes in the center of the island, celts, welsh, picts, etc. Just look at the Scots. The Scots were a group that migrated over from ireland, and replaced the Picts. It used to be called Pictland. The Scots, then, are not native to Scotland. Infact, every group is like that. The "germans" are an aglomeration of lots of different peoples. The Italians are mix of latins, greeks, sicils, sardinians, germans, celts, semitic peoples, heck, even peoples from turkey (if one accepts that the etruscans are lydians). Yet there is that term 'italian', which is meaningless. I've known people from whats now albania and old dalmatia and the like who say they are italian.
Look at Turkey. WHo lives there? The Turks? But the Turkmen are a central asian peoples,more closely 'alligned' with mongols and such than 'arabs' and such.
Whole thing is 'bollocks'.

note the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism. You in the US do not seem to be able to tell sometimes)

Patria, the fatherland, the nation, patriotism, for the fatherland, for the nation. I agree that they are distinct, but its not a stretch to mix and interchange them.

djohnsto77
Creator. Whereas in other governments all your rights are granted by the government, the U.S. says that people " endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." Therefore our government is truly "under God".

A valid point, however it seems to be countered by the Constitution. The declaration isn't law nor precedent for law. I've also heard, and it seems reasonable, that because King George II ruled by divine fiat, that anything declaring independence from the King had to make reference to the only higher authority.

also note
[qote] it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
However american law makes no claim to be subservient to nature/ecology/etc etc

That is true Nygdan.

What I meant about Nationalism and Patriotism is this.

Nationalism has a bad vibe, due to the facists. It promotes one's country above all others, bordering on a superiority complex (sound familiar?).

Patriotism allows you to love ones country, but not at the expense of others.

Thats the difference, at least as percieved here.

Britishers call it the "Mother Country"? Do we? Must be an old one that, I haven't heard it at all. At the very most, when we are abroad, we refer to Britain as "home".

But more commonly, especially when somewhere sunny, "Home" becomes replaced with "#hole"

The school counselor wants to make things "nicer" and doesnt want to offend anyone...She's assenine and should be fired immediately.

I grew up saying the pledge of allegiance, and it felt good to be one nation under God with liberty and justice for all.

I think the liberty and justice for all part could use some rewording under the current state of affairs, if anything.

It should be illegal to trick kids into reciting a pledge. It should not be a requirement either.

Being proud of your country is a great thing. The pledge of allegiance was there to teach children to respect the flag. Adults alike.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Its encouraged in every country one way or another.

Being proud of your current government is something else.


*See my signature*

[edit on 24-4-2005 by dgtempe]

Originally posted by stumason
That is true Nygdan.

What I meant about Nationalism and Patriotism is this.

Nationalism has a bad vibe, due to the facists. It promotes one's country above all others, bordering on a superiority complex (sound familiar?).

Patriotism allows you to love ones country, but not at the expense of others.

Thats the difference, at least as percieved here.

Britishers call it the "Mother Country"? Do we? Must be an old one that, I haven't heard it at all. At the very most, when we are abroad, we refer to Britain as "home".

But more commonly, especially when somewhere sunny, "Home" becomes replaced with "[radio edit]"

Originally posted by dgtempe The pledge of allegiance was there to teach children to respect the flag.

Allow me a question.......why should one respect the flag? Bear with me on this......but a flag is a piece of cloth. It hangs there as a symbolic reminder of the ideology that is used to describe and rationalize the actions of individual and country alike.....In some cases, the symbolism behind the flag is completely irrelavant and actually counter-productive to the reasoning process.....as such, I hold that the pledge of allegiance is lame(apply literal definition of lame to personify the concept...). Look at the words 'pledge of allegiance'.......Pledge....

Source: Merriam-Webster
1 : to make a pledge of; especially : PAWN( 2 : one that can be used to further the purposes of another
2 : to drink to the health of
3 : to bind by a pledge
4 : to promise the performance of by a pledge

and Allegiance...

Source: Merriam-Webster
1 a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government (2) : the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
2 : devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause

To instill this mindset in a person before the advent of proper reasoning skills is antithema to critical thinking and discouraging of personal identity. Sure being American is for all intents and purposes a positive distinction, but as opposed to what? To understand the world at large and the differences between all of the existing distinctions is to be better prepared to form opinions and make decisions that have a resonance beyond 'It's just that way'.....

The thing with ideology is that it is intangible. But it is prevalent in virtually all political speech and as such is used to associate with current events. Ideology can be interpreted different ways depending on the individual. Thus, we have different groups of people citing the same ideology for conflicting point of views. Not very efficient.

I was born in California and have lived their all my life. I do not consider myself American......why should I? I am subject to the laws of the land and don't argue it so on paper I'm American. But not by my hand. To believe myself an american would be to infer a difference with other persons of other nationalities. I'd rather avoid the distinction as it is ultimately immaterial to any conflict. I'm human. And I don't need a pledge to validate my affiliation or realize my good intention toward my fellow man.

quote:
By the way, here is the true Pledge of Allegiance, written by the socialist Francis Bellamy in 1892 as a celebration of the first official Columbus Day:


Hey man, do you have a link to this....I never knew that

And did you know how the kids used to salute the flag when they said the Pledge of Allegiance?




For some reason, it was dropped around the thirties; I'm not sure why....

THAT IS A RIOT!!!!!

Heil! To the Flag.

Screw the pledge and any state enforced "religion".
If this is truly one nation under god, then the god of this nation is a hungry devil who destroyed the original Indian population, who encourages racism and sexism to this very day, who kills innocent people, and jails 3 Million.

Some god, some nation.