Howard attacks Blair's character

news.bbc.co.uk...

is it me, or am i hearing the cries of a dying party

I am pleased to announce it is "you".

The Conservative Party has a larger membership than any other political party in the UK and is the only major party that has not moved ideologically from its position on the centre-right of British politics.

The Labour party has attempted to move into LibDem/left-Tory policy areas and has, successfully, stolen some Tory swing votes. However, the Labour Party will not remain in power for ever (fate willing) and the LibDems are unlikely to replace the Labour party as the opposition because they are too close on too many issues.

The people are complaining (around their dinner tables) about the amount of tax they must pay and, at the moment, they are swallowing (with their dinner) Blair's line on tax being good for public spending. A time will come (not long from now) when the ("it's the economy stupid") economy stops ticking along so nicely, a Tory government will return, taxes will reduce and services will not get worse (or improve) and people will remember why the Conservatives have been in power more than any other party.

Gavin Ayling
www.gavpolitics.co.uk...

No one will vote the tories back in, they ruined the country last time and i dont want them doing it again.

Originally posted by infinite
No one will vote the tories back in, they ruined the country last time and i dont want them doing it again.

Actually they didn't and here's why:

- Thatcher reformed the British economy in a brave way that even Labour now embraces. The UK was languishing in comparison to the rest of the world and she brought it, kicking and screaming, to the fore again.
- Major embraced the ERM (wrongly) and made the mistake of not publicising the demise as a reason to never go into the Euro (though, of course, he never could being a europhile).
- Major was a Blairite in many ways and his mismanagement of the economy (to the extent that he did) has been continued under Brown/Blair.

Michael Howard's ideology is much more Conservative (with a big C) and Thatcherite. I hope that the UK does get a new Conservative government so that the troubles of the 80's can be correctly categorised as a brave period, rather than a mismanaged period.

Brown's master-stroke was to give the Bank of England independence. Since then the economy has stablised in a way that the Tories could not undo and, to all reasonable observers, could only improve upon (lower taxes and benefits creates a more vibrant and productive economy).

Gavin Ayling
www.gavpolitics.co.uk...

Originally posted by GavinAyling
- Thatcher reformed the British economy in a brave way that even Labour now embraces.

- I disagree.
This gov is running the economy far more in line with the general approach used in 'Social democrat' economies throughout Europe.

For instance Thatcher would never have raised NI/tax to increase investment into the public services. Thatcher deliberately engineered mass unemployment to effect labour relations and control inflation (which peaked at 20%+ under her).
This gov has done nothing of the sort, nor anything even close to that.

The UK was languishing in comparison to the rest of the world and she brought it, kicking and screaming, to the fore again.

- She rebalanced the role of Labour v Capital somewhat (at grotesque cost) .....pity they took something that had gone too far in one direction and went way too far in the other themselves.

IMO the UK economy was transformed mainly by north sea oil.

- Major embraced the ERM (wrongly) and made the mistake of not publicising the demise as a reason to never go into the Euro

- No.
They went into the ERM at a totally unsustainable rate.
It had nothing to do with the actual ERM/EMU systems themselves and everything to do with the (as usual) short-sighted expedient tory economics/politics.

In fact the total inability of the gov and the BoE to 'buck the markets' proved the myth of this so-called 'economic sovereignty' tories imagine we have.
The hugely costly failure of 'Black Wednesday' proved that when it comes to it we have so little 'economic sovereignty' alone to affect any real change.

- Major was a Blairite in many ways and his mismanagement of the economy (to the extent that he did) has been continued under Brown/Blair.

- That's an amusing interpretation/view.
Major's economic performance (especially once debt is taken into account) stands no genuine comparison.
How about his recession, the return of the peaks of Thatcher's worst mass unemployment, inflation at 11% and record interest rates/home repossessions?
Where is the parallel with this gov there, hmmm?

Michael Howard's ideology is much more Conservative (with a big C) and Thatcherite. I hope that the UK does get a new Conservative government so that the troubles of the 80's can be correctly categorised as a brave period, rather than a mismanaged period.

- I think this is wishfull thinking in the extreme.
Besides they had 2 very deep and very damaging recessions.
The early 1980's and the early-mid 1990's.
They hurt far too many people far too deeply for that to ever happen, IMO.

......and mark my words, the proof of this deep and engrained 'national memory' will be clearly apparant on May 6th.

Brown's master-stroke was to give the Bank of England independence. Since then the economy has stablised in a way that the Tories could not undo

- Yeah right, so they'd (try to) have everyone believe.

Except that they are talking much of the same nonsense they talked before they got started last time.
All that 'we're not going to cut, we'll just increase spending more slowely' stuff.
Fool me once........

and, to all reasonable observers, could only improve upon (lower taxes and benefits creates a more vibrant and productive economy).

- ROFLMAO.
By "reasonable observers" you must mean tories and tory economists?

Lower taxes and benefits do not operate in a bubble, they are part of a dynamic and complex economy.
The effect of benefits (especially the benefits for working people) are enormous and hardly only negative. It may be that when looked at narrowly there is a marginal negative effect for some areas of the economy but looked at overall that can hardly be the case.
Ditto lower taxes.

To try and claim the UK is a 'high tax economy' is absurd. True they may be slightly higher than the very lowest fleeting troughs of the tory years but on a comparison with the UK's post WW2 rates this remains a period of historically low taxes.

In any event we are talking about the measures this gov has introduced which have led to the longest period of sustained growth in the UK since records began.......as opposed to what?
The ideas and theories of the party which gave us the 2 deepest and most damaging recessions the UK has had since the 1930's?

IMO it is exactly this kind of approach loaded with exactly that kind of simplistic and ultra partial rational that is why the tory party can convince only itself it is so reasonable .....

.....as the rest of us pass on by and leave them to their internal conversations and back-patting.......and go on to elect a Labour gov with a 3rd huge majority on May 5th.