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Babylone and Rome

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posted on May, 24 2005 @ 09:43 AM
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Sacred Tradition


That is the root of the problem.
All else revolves around that.

I believe any tradtions are announced in the bible.
You believe they are from the rcc.

That is surely the root of the problem. (well, not to mention those images and the commandment against them)




posted on May, 24 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997

Sacred Tradition

That is the root of the problem.


Okay, I'll post this one last time and then I'm outta' here.
I have home school duties, swim team for my daughter, and
a few other things going on here.

If you think all Sacred Traditions have to be listed in the bible,
well, the bible itself says otherwise. If you want to hold yourself
to just what the bible has listed... Fine. No problem. However,
at least 1.1 billion Christians have the interpretation that the
bible itself says that it doesn't have all the truth, and to hold
on to Sacred Traditions that are passed on. Also history, and
God's miracles, didn't stop at the end of Revelation. There is life
after Revelation.

The bible doesn't contain all of Christ's teachings. The bible even
says so - 'if all Jesus' teachings were written down, then there
wouldn't be enough books in the world to hold them
all'. - From the book of John

some scripture quotes that support sacred traditions and
oral teachings -

Mark 4:33 - "With many such parables he spoke the word to them .."
(what were the others? Scripture doesn't contain ...)

Mark 6:34 "He began to teach them many things."
(what things? Scripture doesn't contain)

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you can not
bear them now."
(what things? Scripture doesn't contain)

Jon 20:30 - "now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the
disciples, which are not written in this book"
(what things? Scripture doesn't contain)

John 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did;
were every one of them to be written, I suppose the world itself could
not contain the books that would be written."

Acts 1:2-3 - To the apostles he presented himself alive after his
passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days,
and speaking of the kingdom of God"
(what things were taught? It's not written down)

See also Luke 24:15-16, 25-27

So we have Sacred tradition and oral teachings ... which the bible
encourages us to use.

1 Cor 11:2 - "Maintain the traditions ... even as I have delivered them to you."

2 Thess 2:15 "Hold to the traditions .. taught by word of mouth or by letter."

2 Thess 3:6 "... traditions that you received from us"

1 Cor 15:1 - " ... the Gospel, which you received ..."

1 Gal 1:9 - " ... the gospel .. which you received."

1 Thes 2:9 - "we preached to you the gospel of God"

1 Thes 2:13 - "when you received the word of God which you heard
from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as what it really
is, the word of God"

2 Tim 1:13-14: "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have
heard from me ..."

None of the Catholic traditions, which have been handed down for
thousands of years, contradicts what is in scripture. You may find
some traditions that are not in scripture, but they don't contradict
what is written.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
(well, not to mention those images and the commandment against them)


Catholics don't worship statues. It is in the catechism and is taught
in Catholic schools and in CCD class (a sort of Sunday School). This
is basic. Statues in churches are much like pictures you have in
your home. They raise you mind to those whose picture you are
looking at. Statues raise our hearts and minds to God and to the
holy things that His saints did for Him (and this inspires us to do
holy things for God) and that He did in His saints.

Holy Images God commanded in the bible -

Ex 25:18-20 Thou shalt make two cherubim of beaten gold, on the two
sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other
on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading
their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the
other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the
ark is to be covered.

Num 21:9 The Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up
for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. Moses
therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when
they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

3 Kings 6:23 - He m ade in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of
ten cubits in height.

3 Kings 6:28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold. And all the walls of
the temple round about he carved with divers figures and carvings: and
he made in them cherubim and palm trees, and divers representations
as it were standing out and coming forth from the wall.

3 Kings 6:33-35 He made in the entrance of the temple posts of olive
tree four square: and two doors of fir tree, one of each side; and each
door was double, and so opened with folding leaves. And he carved
Cherubim, and palm trees and carved work standing very much out:
and he overlaid all with gold plates in square by rule

Gal 6:14 God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord
Jesus CHrist; by whom the world is crucified to me and I to the world.

Jos 7:6 - Josue rent his garments and fell flat on the ground before the
ark of the Lord until the evening, both he and all the ancients of Israel.
Jos 7:6

Is 11:10 - His sepulcher shall be glorious.

Matt 9:21 - If I shall touch only his garment, I shall be hearled. And the
woman was made whole from that hour.

4 Kings 2:14 - He struck the waters with the mantle of Elias, and they were
divided hither and thither, and Eliseus passed over.

4 Kings 13:21 - When it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life.

Acts 5:15 - They brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on
beds and couches that when Peter came his shadow at the least might
overshadow any of them, and they might be delivered from their
infirmities.

Acts 19:11 - God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.
So that even there were brought from his body to the sick handkerchiefs
and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked
spirits went out of them.



[edit on 5/24/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
That's not what I'm saying. Someone who is saved will still sin but it will be less in frequency and intensity. I agree if someone is saved and says they have no sin they are a liar.


how can you assure that a Born Again person will sin with less frequency ? In fact if they believe they CAN NOT loose their salvation its like a passport to sin even more ? why would I care about sining or not if I "CANT LOOSE MY SALVATION" ??



I believe once saved always saved. When the actual salvation act takes place the Holy Spirit indwells the person. God tells us He will never leave us nor forsake us. And we know that greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world.


True ..God will NEVER forsaken his followers, but anyone CAN abandon and forsaken God even a Bor again... If they couldnt than FREE WILL would not exist. ANYONE ...even a BORN AGAIN can abandon God ... all they have to do is renounce to Him... now are you saying that a Born again person who renounce to God will still enter the "Pearly Gates" ??? Are you saying God is FORCE to receive in Heaven even the Born again People who renounce Him ??


It seems to me if a person believes they can lose their salvation then there is a reason it is lost. What would that reason be? Did the Holy Spirit get fed up with us and leave, no, He will never leave nor forsake us. It would have to be our performance.


EXACTLY ! its your own decision weather you will keep your salvation or not. Its not easy to loose your salvation, but it is Possible. To Calim ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is telling GOD " I don't care, shut up...you are FORCED TO RECEIVE ME IN HEAVEN, because once in the Past ...I repented and Followed you".


If it's our performance then salvation is works and not by the grace of God as a free gift. The Bible tells us it's a free gift.


Nope SAlavtion is bith by WORKS + FAITH...James said "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"... and dont tell me that a person who has FAITH will do the WORKS... no no no...FREE WILL remember...GOD CANT FORCE YOU TO DO ANYHTING. It is your choice and your resposibility to keep FOLLOWING HIM...Why did JESUS tell the sinning Churche in Philadelphia that he WOUDL BLURT THEM OUT HIS MOUTH if they didn Follow him? Following is BEHOND FAITH, its also doing HIS will.


A true acceptance of Christ means you are born again. That is a big deal.


and what exactly is a TRUE acceptance of JESUS... simply BELIEVE?? and dump everything on the CROSS??? and just sit on your Salvation, name it , claim it and wait for the Rapture ?...i dont think so ...


If you think you lost your salvation, then you never had it to begin with!


well thats a very judgmental statement... how could you possibly know what I have or not ?
I simply dont live in denyal ...Jesus was VERY VERY CLEAR about the path to HEAVEN... its narrow and straight,.... not filled with "guarantees". Furthermore, like I stated before Jesus WARNED sinning Churches of "BORN AGAIN CHURCHES" about the fact that either they would change or they would not enter Heaven = LOOSING THEIR SALVATION. If it was not Possible to anyone to loose their salvation why would Jesus make that VERY CLEAR warning ?

I know Once Saved Always Saved is HEAR CANDY, sounds GREAT, but it doesnt have one foot to stand on.

Besides SALVATION is suppose to be a GIFT FOR THOSE WHO FOLLOW JESUS AND DO HIS WILL, not just believe.

According to ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, you can do whatever you want no metter what YOU WILL GO TO HEAVEN ANYWAY. It completly denyes the human follen nature, that Jesus warned YOU MUST OVERCOME.

Now if you are guaranteed Heaven and Can NOT loose your Salvation why bother Overcoming or Repenting or Following Jesus ? Why Bother if you cant Loose your Salvation ?

[edit on 24-5-2005 by BaastetNoir]



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir
According to ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, you can do whatever you want no metter what YOU WILL GO TO HEAVEN ANYWAY. It completly denyes the human follen nature, that Jesus warned YOU MUST OVERCOME.

[edit on 24-5-2005 by BaastetNoir]



When a person feels a conviction of their sins and receives Christ as Savior and Lord you are saved. You have been given a new nature. You have a desire to stop sinning because you realize what it cost Jesus. Does it stop all at once, no we are still in the world that's filled with temptations and still in our fallen physical bodies and have an enemy constantly attacking us. But I know I don't want to hurt Jesus anymore than I already have, that is a great deterrent not to sin. Do i still, yes but because I want to change the Holy Spirit has a vessel that desires the same thing as He desires. 2 trying to acheive the same goal can accomplish more than 2 pulling in opposite directions.



posted on May, 24 2005 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir
well thats a very judgmental statement... how could you possibly know what I have or not ?



Sorry, when I said you, I didn't actually mean you. I should have said a some person. I wasn't being specific about you just in general is what I meant.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 05:58 AM
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The bible doesn't contain all of Christ's teachings


That is not what I said.
I said that the traditions spoken of when the bible says


2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
are nothing different then whats in the bible.
We have no reason to believe otherwise.

Now there is other tradition spoken of in the bible.



Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;


Every time I hear someone say 'church fathers' i think of that because things like the graven images cannot be found among the worshipers of Christ in the bible. It comes in from the rcc 'church fathers'.

That is what Im saying when I say this is the root of our split.

Do you want to let this be handled in the other thread by croat so it wont have to be said twice..and all the answers will be in one place?



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
I said that the traditions spoken of when the bible says


2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
are nothing different then whats in the bible.
We have no reason to believe otherwise.


Actually, we have no reason to believe that the traditions and oral
teachings that they are speaking of ARE in the bible. I posted MANY
quotes showing that the bible doesn't hold all truths. I posted MANY
quotes showing that the bible doesn't list all the oral teachings.
You didn't read what was posted again, did you?

Even the one you quoted above says it ... 'whether by word...'
Go back and read the quotes and comments. There is absolutely
nothing that says oral teaching and tradition is strictly to be what
was revealed in scripture. The exact opposite is true. Scripture
says so.


Every time I hear someone say 'church fathers' i think of that because things like the graven images cannot be found among the worshipers of Christ in the bible. It comes in from the rcc 'church fathers'.


The Church Fathers are simply those who were in the Church for the
first three hundred years or so. They are the ones who put the bible
together. And it's amazing that post after post after post has shown
you that the Catholic Church does not worship statues, and yet you
still continue on that it does. You aren't reading what is posted again.

Also, I posted many examples of 'graven images' that God commanded
to be made and/or used .... the serpant for Moses, etc. Did you read
those?



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
things like the graven images cannot be found among the
worshipers of Christ in the bible. It comes in from the rcc
'church fathers'.


:shk: Wrong again. READ!
Read what the Church fathers said.

From Catholic Answers dot com
Idolatry Condemned by the Church

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently
condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against
this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question
of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed
us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took
for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and
assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the
consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no
attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the
true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the
profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no
different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is
committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they
possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to,
or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is
someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other
than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What
anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece
of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and
the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use
of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. ANYONE WHO SAYS
OTHERWISE DOESN'T KNOW HIS BIBLE.



[edit on 5/25/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir
I know Once Saved Always Saved is HEAR CANDY,
sounds GREAT, but it doesnt have one foot to stand on.

We call it soul candy. Tastes great .. no nutritional value.
It's a dangerous notion ... like the escapist rapture 'theology'.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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Um, jake, I've read alot of your post and they seem to have a definite anti-catholic flavor. I'm not catholic, but I have known many and I can tell you that the ones that I know believe that Jesus Christ is the risen Son of God who died for our sins. So that makes them Christian.

Anything other than that is church doctrine. There are alot of things that Christians teach and believe that I don't believe. I question everything including God. I question him all of the time in my prayers. I refuse to believe anything just because someone says it or alot of people believe it.

Prayer and communion with the Holy Spirit help me in my understanding, and through my understanding, my beliefs. And yes I am a Christian.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is
committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they
possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to,
or reposing confidence in them" (374).


Did Catholic answers dot com not want to confuse the non-catholic by quoting what the CCC says on this point?

Emphasis added:
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God.

There ya' go. You answered everything in this one sentence.
Excellent work Raphael. Glad you posted that.

No one 'divinizes' plastic statues. No one 'divinizes' marble.
Even morons know that a plastic statue made in Taiwan
is not God. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught that.
The church says not to. It would be ignorant. Plastic or
marble or wood are not God. Major 'DUH!!" inserted here.

That's why it is so frustrating ... idiots out there jumping up and
down saying ... 'oh .. Catholics think a hunk of plastic made in
Taiwan is God'.. Frigg'n stupid, obnoxious, and condensending.
We aren't a bunch of idiots, but that's how real idiots treat us.

God is a carved piece of wood. Yeah, right. :shk:
Nobody divinizes Abraham Lincoln's statue in Washington D.C.
Nobody divinizes Statues in churches.
Nobody divinizes pictures in homes of family and friends.

Honoring someone ('all generations shall call me blessed') and
DIVINIZING their likeness are two very different things.

My God. If only people would read the Catechism instead of
listening to that moron Jack Chick ... or listening to the anti-
everyone-but-us cults that are out there. EDUCATION denys
ignorance.



[edit on 5/25/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Now if you are guaranteed Heaven and Can NOT loose your Salvation why bother Overcoming or Repenting or Following Jesus ? Why Bother if you cant Loose your Salvation ?

[edit on 24-5-2005 by BaastetNoir]



Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

believed- to have faith, assurance, entrust one's spiritual well being to
Christ

sealed-to stamp for security or preservation

earnest-A token of something to come; a promise or an assurance.

I say that a true acceptance of Christ in which a person has the Holy Spirit indwell them is literally a guarantee of salvation and I believe that is what the Bible teaches.

The growth rate of our spiritual life and the reduction in the intensity and frequency of sin that a person committs, is related to how much of ourself we give over to God and how much we want to learn about Him and change.

Why bother changing because if you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, He changes us as we let Him and desire that also. Some want fast growth and some are slower in their growth.

Faith in Christ alone is salvation and not works nor our performance, if it was the last 2 no one would ever reach heaven or eternal life with God.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Honoring someone ('all generations shall call me blessed') and
DIVINIZING their likeness are two very different things.


Beware the fine line. Simply claiming a creature is not divine, does not negate the sin of idolatry.

Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."



[edit on 25-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 03:17 PM
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So thats your argument FF? Because the bible doesnt define that unknown oral tradition, we can let the rcc do it?
No.

As for the graven images..

First

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

There is your first verse about idols. We are talking about images.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

DONT EVEN MAKE IT

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Question:
Do catholics bow in front of graven images of mary?
What does the mary apparition command faithful catholics to do?
Do catholics pray to mary?
What does God say NOT to do?

1.) Dont make the image
2.) Dont pray to it

Even in Egypt they didnt think the statue was the actual God. They had many such statues of the same thing. The statue was representative of the idol. No one things the statue is the mary. It is the symbol that people bow in front of to pray to mary.



Why would you do those things?



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 05:24 AM
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Quote//
Christians pray in the presence of Icons (just as Israelites prayed in the presence of Icons in the Temple), but we do not pray to the image.

3. Do Icons work miracles?
To put this question in proper perspective, let's consider a few other questions: Did the Ark of the Covenant work miracles (e.g. Joshua 3:15ff; 1st Samuel 4-6; 2nd Samuel 11-12)?
Did the Bronze Serpent heal those bitten by snakes (Numbers 21:9)?
Did the Prophet Elisha's bones raise a man from the dead (2nd Kings 13:21)?
Did St. Peter's shadow heal the sick (Acts 5:15)?
Did aprons and handkerchiefs that had touched St. Paul heal the sick and caste out evil spirits (Acts 19:12)?

The answer to these questions are, Yes, in a manner of speaking. Nevertheless, to be precise, it was God who chose to work miracles through these things.
In the case of the Ark and the Bronze serpent, we have images used to work miracles. God worked a miracle through the relics of the Prophet Elisha, through the shadow of a Saint, and through things that had merely touched a Saint.
Why?
Because God honors those who honor Him (1st Samuel 2:30),
and thus takes delight in working miracles through his Saints, even by these indirect means.
The fact that God can sanctify material things should come as no surprise to those familiar with Scripture.
For example,
not only was the Altar of the Temple holy,
but anything that touched it was holy as well (Exodus 29:37).
To reject the truth that God works through material things is to fall into Gnosticism.

The Jews understand the difference between veneration and worship (adoration).
A pious Jew kisses the Mezuza on his door post, he kisses his prayer shawl before putting it on, he kisses the tallenin, before he binds them to his forehead, and arm.
He kisses the Torah before he reads it in the Synagogue.
No doubt,
Christ did likewise, when reading the Scriptures in the Synagogue.

www.orthodoxinfo.com...

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (i.e. idol), or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor shalt thou serve (worship) them..." (Exodus 20:4-5a).

Now,
if we take this as a reference to images of any kind, then clearly the cherubim in the Temple violate this command.
If we limit this as applying only to idols, no contradiction exists. Furthermore, if this applies to all images—then even the picture on a driver's license violates it, and is an idol.
So either every Protestant with a driver's license is an idolater, or Icons are not idols.

6. Doesn't Deuteronomy 4:14-19 forbid any images of God? How then can you have Icons of Christ?

This passage instructs the Jews not to make a (false) image of God, because they had not seen God, however, as Christians, we believe that God became Incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ, and so we may depict that "which we have seen with our eyes" (1st John 1:1). As St. John of Damascus said:

"Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted.
Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh,
and conversing with men,
I make an image of the God whom I see.
I do not worship matter,
I worship the God of matter,
who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter.
I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God.
How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God's body is God by union, it is immutable.
The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul."

The Scriptures do command the Israelites to bow before the Ark,
which had two prominent images of cherubim on it.
In Psalms 99:5,

it commands: "bow before the footstool of His feet...."
We should note first of all that the word for "bow" here, is the same word used in Exodus 20:5,
when we are told to not bow to idols.

And what is the "footstool of His feet"?
In 1st Chronicles 28:2, David uses this phrase in reference to the Ark of the Covenant. In Psalm 99 [98 in the Septuagint], it begins by speaking of the Lord who "dwells between the Cherubim" (99:1),
and it ends with a call to "bow to His holy hill"—which makes it even clearer that in context, this is speaking of the Ark of the Covenant.
This phrase occurs again in Psalm 132:7, where it is preceded by the statement "We will go into His tabernacles..." and is followed by the statement "Arise, O Lord, into Thy rest; Thou and the Ark of Thy strength."

Interestingly,
this phrase is applied to the Cross in the services of the Church,
and the connection is not accidental—because on the Ark,
between the Cherubim was the Mercy Seat,
upon which the sacrificial blood was sprinkled for the sins of the people (Exodus 25:22, Leviticus 16:15).

If you look at the passage in question (2nd Kings 18:4),
you will see that the Bronze Serpent was not destroyed simply because people honored it,
but because they had made it into a serpent God, called "Nehushtan."

I.X
helen



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 07:58 AM
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2 kings 18:4
The jews did not pray in the presence of Icons.
Only the priests were allowed into the inner temple anyway.

Back to the commandment.
It clearly says to not even make them.
You can write 10 pages of commentary but it will not change the commandment. To willfully go against the word of God is to reject grace



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
honors and reveres a creature in place of God,

And once again ... no one honors or reveres creatures
IN PLACE OF GOD. The Catechism is very clear about that.
Catholic teaching is very clear about that. Mary doesn't
replace God. Abraham Lincoln's statue sitting in DC isn't
replacing God. The picture you have of your mom on your
living room wall isn't replacing God.

Come on folks.... Catholics are not turnip truck idiots.
No one thinks Mary is God. No one thinks the pope is God.

'all generations shall call me blessed' - that is the biblical
prophecy. That's what we do. She is blessed among women.
BLESSED .. not turned into God. Big difference.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir

how can you assure that a Born Again person will sin with less frequency ?


Because that's what I am living. I can feel it in my own life. I know and feel God working to change my condition. That's why Jesus came, to remove our sin debt and sent the Holy Spirit to live in us and change us. He renews our mind and changes our old way of thinking. He teaches us right from wrong and convicts us of present sin so that we know what is wrong and we can turn away from it.




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