Question: Why push your faith on others?

Please no mocking. But a link or two would be nice.

You know like a consolidated history of the role of evangalism, witnessing, the role of missionaries in not only presenting a faith but paving the way for capitalism, how Rome converted the world, I don't know. Like an actual "conspiracy" thread kind of thing. Defeat of communism. I dunno. Something not this.

Please.

Were you talking to me RANT?

Originally posted by RANT
Please no mocking. But a link or two would be nice.

You know like a consolidated history of the role of evangalism, witnessing, the role of missionaries in not only presenting a faith but paving the way for capitalism, how Rome converted the world, I don't know. Like an actual "conspiracy" thread kind of thing. Defeat of communism. I dunno. Something not this.

Please.

There is a conspiracy within the conspiracy in that, God obviously has spoken, and those who for 2,011 years have defied him do so based on a conspiracy to oust his regal position because they do not look upon those words as being from God, and where, since the Christian god is dominant in the western world, the conspiracy against the Christian God is led by Satan.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Were you talking to me RANT?

No NSA about mocking, but the whole forum about presenting Religious Conspiracies. They're fascinating. Among the best of all that the conspiracy world has to offer. A phenomenon thousands of years old and even documented. We can do this.

I just hate to see every thread become a theological debate or have to get moved to there. Not that theological debate isn't cool, but it's not a conspiracy.

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by truthseeka
Were you talking to me RANT?

No NSA about mocking, but the whole forum about presenting Religious Conspiracies.

I was merely giving an animated illustration of how the witnessing/conversion is being placed upon people offensively in an excaggerrated way. It wasn't mocking, LOL.

I think people don't do it because they are trying to save anyone. I think originally they try to push faith off because it means a lot to them. I think we all have certain things that mean a lot to us.

Like I think everyone should see the movie Supersize Me. I think everyone should really care about their health or fitness.

I think everyone should meditate in some form. I think everyone should watch a lot of comedy television. I think people should avoid watching too many horror films. My thoughts are my religion, and occasionally I do share my opinion.

I think some people really focus a lot of their energy on something like Christianity or Islam or whatever that just happens to be what comes up the most in conversations. That's all they really know or have come to be passionate about.

I think once you develop more balance, have seen more, you aren't pushing one idea as much. You are more multifaceted. People go through stages.

A study of cult brainwashing technics will reveal much about those who "push their faith".
Its academic, classic programming.

No proof of god, no proof of hell, yet they still spout their garbage like its "truth".

Most of these "pushers" are so lonely that they have to go around bringing other people into their "program" in order to validate their beliefs.

Just look around in the threads around here, these people are way out of touch, associating everything and anything with god and devils. This is text-book clinical associative disorder.

Legalizer, who says thier isn't proof? you have the bible, and peoples personal experinace with spiritual matters. It is jsut you cannot prove them to others as easily as you would a court case.

My life has chaged drastically for the better since I was converted. You don't think that is evidance enough?

Tho I agree some go a little overboard with trying to witness. ANd it hurts me that those people are perventing others from coming to faith.

Answer: I don't.

I've never heard of a forced conversion of the heart.

Originally posted by Light Being
The way I see it, people haven't learned how to properly agree to disagree, and so this has been used as a means of manipulation when it comes to religion.

The main problems with organized religion are:

A. The mention of free will, but no regard with respect to opposing belief systems.

B. The impulsive nature of humanity to insist they can speak and comprehend the truth without hegelian dialect and quantum philosophy.

C. Blind faith, dogma, and the inability to question authority.

Let's start with your number 1: free will is not only a Christian doctrine, (though it is not adhered to by all who call themselves Christians); it is a basic part of our created make-up.

A very familiar verse which points this out is John 3:16, which reads "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

For purpose of this discussion, the "whosoever believeth in Him" phrase is the point: "Whosoever" clearly speaks of choice. Therefore, the assumption inferred in your statement is incorrect.

"Free will" is the choice of humans to choose to believe in the Christ or not. Not the option of choosing another way to everlasting life.

Since this verse also shows the way to everlasting life is by Jesus Christ, Christians don't believe Buddha or some other wannabe Christ will save anyone from death and hell. Hence their insistence that Jesus is the (only) "Way, Truth and Life". (John 14:16 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. )

As for your number 2: your use of esoteric words is a visual of your intellectualism, but what do Hegel's techniques or any of man's philosophies of whatever kind have to do with the Truth? Assuming you do have knowledge and use of both, and so feel you are equipped to "speak and comprehend" the truth, what Truth have you discovered?

Ps 19:7 says, The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple

Do you know the law of the Lord or His testimony?

Number 3, "Blind faith, dogma, and the inability to question authority"

Faith, yes, if you mean Christians believe in Christ, period. Faith in Christ, who is not seen with physical sight in our times, would by that definition have to be believed in blindly, wouldn't you say?

And if you really meant ignorant faith, which is probably closer to your intention, not even. It can take considerable time reading and hearing the Word before faith "cometh", (Rom 10:17) which is why it was required that Jesus send us the Holy Spirit: (John 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[Not that some blessed souls have come to a saving knowledge of Christ and His Cross sans preaching or teaching or even having a Bible, but those are, it would seem, very special cases. Ie, Paul on the Damascus road in Acts 9.]

Dogma as defined in a dictionary is "A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church". But your intention in using the word probably assumes the meaning of "stubborn adherence to wrong-headed beliefs", so prevalent among disputers, and, as it was probably intended to trigger a reaction by its use, I don't think I'll deal with it, except to point out that dogma comes in many forms, not all related to matters of the Spirit.

Absolutely wrong principles (doctrines) are quite often "set forth in an authoritative manner" even by well-educated posters.

As for the "inability to question authority", you are entirely wrong. Your purported knowledge of religious doings should have made you clear on that.

Also, let me make a "dogmatic" statement here: I question your authority (or right, for that matter )to state what is "wrong with organized religion". If you want to be a part of "religion", it is very easy, nor does it require a membership in a church, "organized" or not, at least not in order to be saved from eternal damnation. I gave you the Way from John 3:16. The rest is up to you and your free will.

I pray you will call on the Name by which you must be saved!

Acts 4:10 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
4:11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Jehosephat, since you mentioned personal experiences are proof...

Would you feel that the personal experiences of people who see reptilians shapeshift is proof of their existence? What about the numerous UFO/alien contact reports? How about people who have similar experiences to the one you describe, yet for them it is the revelation to them that a faith other than Christianity is the path to follow? Why do I get the impression that you will say the people addressed by the last question are being misled?

By your own statement, all of these things, even reptilians, are real. And, if holy books cement the proof, people who have these experiences and join a religion other than Christianity have their holy books as proof. Therefore, Allah, Yahweh, Osiris, Zeus, etc. are thus proven. Thanks for your insight into this matter.

My proof will not make anyone believe. All I can do is encourage others to get their OWN proof and direct them how they could if they are interested. It's not even complicated direction. It's just "ask God", but apparently that throws a monkey wrench in the works and I'm all of the sudden a saboteur of the mind . Now, I've never met Rectum Reptiles from Uranus or whatever, but if I get my proof then you can bet I'd believe then. Don't blindly believe what I say, find out for yourself! God is waiting, pick up the phone and sincerely talk. He's not going to stop by for tea and crumpets but you'll get an answer if you keep the lines open. Now if any of this is "pushing conversion" then sorry for the inconvenience, that's the end of my show. This message was brought you by the letters G, the letter O, and the letter D. Everybody wants a sign, then drives right by them because they're too busy looking at the road.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by saint4God]

Hi saint4God,

I got your u2u but got this response when I attempted to answer:

"You may not send private messages to anyone
but ATS Staff until you have more than 20 posts. "

Sorry to have to bring this to the thread. And I'm not real sure it would be wise to put my e-mail out here. Any other suggestions?

Nothing so sinister or pathetic as the implications of some posters. Basically, Christians call it "the Good News". People of all faiths get excited by their faith.

Everyone wants to share good news or something exciting in their lives. If I won the lottery and you were my friend you bet I'd tell you. If I had a date with a supermodel, you'd hear about it. Even something mundane, like "hey that was a really cool picture I took of the sunset", I'd tell everyone I liked about it.

My advice is if you aren't into faith just tell the person, hey I appreciate it but no thanks. 99 times out of a 100 you won't hear about it again from that person.

feel a bit hypocritical here as i don't belive in God and my comparative mythology is suspect but....

i thought that jesus gave us two commandments:
1. love your god above everything
2. love your neighbour as you do yourself

now if you really love your neighbour how can you not want him/her do come to worship god, if you didn't then you're not being neighbourly.

thats why i'll always give christians/mormons/JWs the time of day or at least politeness because they're only doing what the book tells them.

i might try to challenge them as they try to challenge me but really we both probably realise its a lost cause.... they have to try and save me - i have to try and undogmatise* them.

mark

*this might not be a word

Originally posted by truthseeka
From what I understand, religion works really well for some people. For others, it doesn't. I honestly wish I knew people from all kinds of faiths so I could get an idea of what they believe in. For example, I was told that Buddhists have no God; yet, a Buddhist classmate of mine told me that they DO have a God, and they have more than one.

I know personally of two maybe three one is the person with several arms, one is part elephant part man, and let us not forget budda himself.

Normally I know some would be compelled to say there is only one God and no other God shall go before him nor idols , and I myself am inclined to believe this way myself ...but to force upon a person your beliefs and to burn them down as a person only discraces yourself and the God all mighty.

Well, my point is that religion obviously helps the lives of some people. The thing that gets me is when people push their faith on others and/or try to convert them. Regardless of who does it, I disagree with it. Just because something works for you doesn't mean you should attempt to push it onto others. Talking about how great your religion is is one thing, but pushing it on people is a different thing.

What is sad about this way of thinking however is that God and faith there in is only viewed as a cruch of stability.....God should not be followed according to fancy and ease...but more in the love to endure all good and bad to serve God. Pay no never mind to your discomfort for thee shall be rewarded many fold for your faith in the face of adversity is a basic principle we should all follow.

Now, I understand that this is a prerequisite in some faiths, but I still disagree with it. I feel that discussing religious is great; I'm all for it. But, I don't think that we should attempt to persuade others to join our faith.

No not true , there are rules of engagement it is not required that they force anything on you, however if they are in public fora then you should be the one to depart if you dont like their words.....If they come to you one on one however you should ask them to leave you have that right...and freedom of choice both as a human being and by the Will of God.





[edit on 5/4/2005 by drbryankkruta]

Originally posted by curiousity
Hi saint4God,

I got your u2u but got this response when I attempted to answer:

"You may not send private messages to anyone
but ATS Staff until you have more than 20 posts. "

Sorry to have to bring this to the thread. And I'm not real sure it would be wise to put my e-mail out here. Any other suggestions?

Hm, post a bunch more times? It'll be good readin' I'm sure. I'll hear from ya when I can. No hurries no worries.

Originally posted by Light Being
The way I see it, people haven't learned how to properly agree to disagree, and so this has been used as a means of manipulation when it comes to religion.



The main problems with organized religion are:


A. The mention of free will, but no regard with respect to opposing belief systems.

B. The impulsive nature of humanity to insist they can speak and comprehend the truth without hegelian dialect and quantum philosophy.

C. Blind faith, dogma, and the inability to question authority.



Since most organized religions, mainly of the monotheistic variety, tend to have it hard wired to carry out these 3 detremental moral approaches, you can sure as hell bet that jihads and ww3 will carry on until this planet is just a big Disneyland meat factory.



Can't beat the feeling.

You truly are a being of Light.

The problem is the teachings of the Bible are used as proof that those teachings are in fact truth, since devotees to The Bible have decided to and chose if you will to believe nothing else. The mind has then been voluntarily shut to allow consideration for debate on what else those teachings could in fact mean or refer to, or whether or not they even make sense or are indisputable by inconsistencies and contradiction within the same book. Is that then really freewill, where you believe that in order to get into Heaven you must believe in Jesus? Does that mean if all Christians truly reflect on this question will they always ultimately come up with the answer; yes I believe because my own freewill has led me to question whether I believe out of fear, because I want to, or because it makes absolute sense?

The notion of freewill as is known to the world does not come from the OT, but from a few vague verses within the epistles and mostly from the fact it became a focus of attention in the first few hundred years of the church and from which the ideology of same has been taught as readily as the abc. Now try telling anyone using the Roman alphabet that ‘a’ does not come before ‘b’, and the answer is a definitive; yes it does. Yet, ‘a’ comes before ‘b’ only because we humans say so. If the God of The Bible did indeed give us freewill, he certainly has on numerous occasion removed same from others we are led to believe were his enemies, pharaoh of Egypt being only one such person. And we know of this because the book again tells us he did this. Well, we have had no one in Jewish or Christian circles for the last 2,000+ years declaring to have spoken on behalf to say why he has done what he has done, and whose heart he is hardening. So for all any of us know, and I mean anyone from the most wicked to the most pious, Biblical God could be busy hardening hearts, so as to be as unmoving as pharaoh, and yet not be aware of it happening personally.

If honest dialogue about religious dogma, doctrine and disciple is supposed to take place between opposing views, then it behoves the believers to find natural and unequivocal evidence rather than quotations from the book to say: it says we should, therefore we have to, in order to prove the validity of same. Unfortunately, when only verses can be offered and they are countered by other verses and evidence unflattering to the religion, the re-counter is usually met by this cry of anti-Christian.

There is no Christian man, woman or child on this earth vehemently arguing that the way to heaven is through Jesus, capable of discussing why it is that I or any other person cannot believe in God even more so than they and get into heaven unless we are saved, without their need to quote scripture. Nor can they begin to think that Biblical God is in fact not the real nature of God. The dismissal of their own freewill has seen to it that objectivity too has been removed.

Actually many religious followers that are truly devoted believe that spreading the word of God and Jesus teaching is part of their jobs as true believers.

I remember when I was growing up how we used to go around as spreading the faith, occurs my father being a seventh day adventist spreading the word for salvation is part of his religious duty.

While my mother a catholic doesn't do any of that at all.