Demoralizing our troups while they fight our enemies

These troups are our Fathers, our brothers, our sisters, or our mothers.
They put their lives on the line for us every day. They endure the unimaginable so that we sitting here at our desks can enjoy our moca and donuts in peace.
How we view them and support them at home directly effects their ambition and drive to complete their tasks on the frontline.

www.azconservative.org...

www.pabaah.com...

Those that are protesting against what our boys are doing over seas you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and i completely respect that. However the flip side is that you should think about how you are effecting our soldiers in the field. You may be subjecting them to the very death that you claim to be protesting against. This post does not mean that i support 100% of what our administration has been involved in. However, these soldiers are our own people and allies helping our own people. These are citizens and blood from your own country. Irregardless of the circumstances you should be supporting your own countrymen in time when they are fighting for their lives and our lives.

The causes and subjection of war will always be debatable. Protest the administration if you will, HOwever DO NOT demoralize your own Fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters when they fight on the front line for you!!

This is simply another side to think about when supporting or protesting the war. This is meant to respect both side opinions and can be debatable. Just keep our soldiers in mind....support them and respect them irregarless the circumstances.

Carburetor

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Mr Carburetor]

Unless I suddenly became insane, I will never support voluntary and willful killing of human beings. If these were involuntary conscripted draftees, maybe it would be different, but this is not the case. This war is absolutely wrong and obvious to most at this point. Those who are fighting over there were allegedly supposed to do so in defense of the nations they originated from. They are not and it has been proven that they are not now. If they cannot figure that out and get out of the situation and return to their home countries to one day become defenders of their nation, then I cannot support them.

If our countries and their leaders wish to continue these police actions, then an actual international police force that does more than shoot everything that moves will have to be created. Using lethal force even after the conflict is allegedly over as is the case with Iraq and Afghanistan is not something that is going to create a stable region free from violence. The collateral damage as its called creates rebellion from those who have suffered the loss of their family and friends.

Protesting soldiers to demoralize them is one of the only ways for the anti-war crowd to do anything about wars that are taking place at that moment in time. Since policy makers do not stop these wars even with protests, demoralization of the fighters of these wars to eventually stop the war itself is about one of only things that can be done outside of violent revolution against the system that began the war. Wars are fought these days primarily for profit. Once soldiers become demoralized enough to stop fighting, business cannot continue and the war has to end. This is basically what ended the Vietnam Conflict though I doubt protests against soldiers had much effect in that case. Attrition in the battlefield itself was the biggest factor.

That is always a key argument for the left wing.
If you reside from a country not involved in the war, then i can see how you may care none that soldiers from other countries are demoralized and suffer losses. (maybe experiencing a few terrorist attacks on your homaland may change your mind)
However residing from a country involved in the war, you subject your own countryman to defeat. Justifications of the war asside, you can place question and protest the administration involved. However once again the flip side is that you are effecting the death toll yourself by demoralizing your own people on the frontline. It goes both ways.

You can do both you know.

I was originally for this war, and even because of the hidden (not publicized reasons). However, there is a right and a wrong way to go about this, and in my opinion, this administration did the WRONG thing at almost every turn.

However, I completely support our troops. I know people over there in almost EVERY branch of service. They're friends, kids of friends, fathers of friends, husbands/wives of friends, etc. Those in my office (and myself) get letters from troops all the time, as we organize care packages from home and send it to them.

Just wanted to point out that you can be against this war (or at least the way it's being directed) and STILL support the troops you know.

BTW, a short list of great things to send....(based on personal correspondence)

1. Prepaid Phone Cards
2. Well- packaged baked goods from home
3. Books - especially western novels for some reason
4. Games (like boardgames, decks of cards, etc.)
5. AA Batteries
6. Diversions (baseballs, frisbies, basketballs, footballs, etc.)
7. CDs and DVDs
8. Letters from kids
9. Journals, pens
10. Disposable Cameras

And i would also like proof FRITH....
...that our soldiers are shooting anything that moves.
Lets put a rifle in your hands and have insurgents and terrorists shoot at you and run into a crowd where you cannot identify him. Have a terrorist blow up a car next to you on a daily basis. We will see if you would stand there, or if you will fire back to protect yourselve at what you believe may be the target.

As a family member of as soldier over sees, the demoralization of our soldiers puts him at more risk of both death and unessessary ridicule for serving his country. If you have a family memeber involved then you are certainly welcome to put your family member at risk if you wish......however irregardless of what the circumstances of war are, i will back these ladies and gentleman 100% so that they can achieve their mission 100% and have that much a better chance to come home saftely.

Originally posted by Gazrok
You can do both you know.

I was originally for this war, and even because of the hidden (not publicized reasons). However, there is a right and a wrong way to go about this, and in my opinion, this administration did the WRONG thing at almost every turn.

However, I completely support our troops. I know people over there in almost EVERY branch of service. They're friends, kids of friends, fathers of friends, husbands/wives of friends, etc. Those in my office (and myself) get letters from troops all the time, as we organize care packages from home and send it to them.

Excellent!! This is exactly the point i was trying to make. Thanks Gazrok for understanding my point
Carburetor

Mr Carburetor-

Why don't you save yourself a ton of typing and just come out and say you don't think citizens should be allowed to protest the war? I mean it sure seems like that is your real feeling.

"I support the right to protest, but it's hurting our troops" seems to be your stated position, but what do you offer for a solution? Stop protesting? I too have family and friends in the military and in the line of fire and that is EXACTLY why i protest! why should their lives be risked for a cause that wasn't even based on truth?!?

There were no WMD.
Saddam was not linked to 9/11.
Saddam was not linked to bin Laden.
We are clearly not welcome in Iraq.

If the lives of my brothers and friends are not worth protesting for, i don't know what is.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by negativenihil]

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
And i would also like proof FRITH....
...that our soldiers are shooting anything that moves.
Lets put a rifle in your hands and have insurgents and terrorists shoot at you and run into a crowd where you cannot identify him. Have a terrorist blow up a car next to you on a daily basis. We will see if you would stand there, or if you will fire back to protect yourselve at what you believe may be the target.

I think my initial repost described pretty much everything you ask above. It doesn't matter that these men and women are over there trying to figure out who is the enemy or not, they are NOT supposed to be there at all. The invasion and subseqent occupation created these insurgents, terrorists, or whatever you want to call them. I would never find myself in such a situation to begin with. Those who do should do the intelligent thing and LEAVE.

As far as proof as you request, I am not in Iraq. I am in the United States. The only proof I have is of the multiple reports I've read of soldiers shooting at innocent targets. Photos of dead non-combatants, and other semi-non-physical proof items because I am not physically in Iraq to scrape bodies off the ground to show them to you.

As a family member of as soldier over sees, the demoralization of our soldiers puts him at more risk of both death and unessessary ridicule for serving his country. If you have a family memeber involved then you are certainly welcome to put your family member at risk if you wish......however irregardless of what the circumstances of war are, i will back these ladies and gentleman 100% so that they can achieve their mission 100% and have that much a better chance to come home saftely.

Do as you wish. You're not the one killing. Its the people you support who are.

Their mission is wrong and thats all I have to say at this point in time.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Frith]

Originally posted by Frith
Unless I suddenly became insane, I will never support voluntary and willful killing of human beings. If these were involuntary conscripted draftees, maybe it would be different, but this is not the case. This war is absolutely wrong and obvious to most at this point. Those who are fighting over there were allegedly supposed to do so in defense of the nations they originated from. They are not and it has been proven that they are not now. If they cannot figure that out and get out of the situation and return to their home countries to one day become defenders of their nation, then I cannot support them.

If our countries and their leaders wish to continue these police actions, then an actual international police force that does more than shoot everything that moves will have to be created. Using lethal force even after the conflict is allegedly over as is the case with Iraq and Afghanistan is not something that is going to create a stable region free from violence. The collateral damage as its called creates rebellion from those who have suffered the loss of their family and friends.

Protesting soldiers to demoralize them is one of the only ways for the anti-war crowd to do anything about wars that are taking place at that moment in time. Since policy makers do not stop these wars even with protests, demoralization of the fighters of these wars to eventually stop the war itself is about one of only things that can be done outside of violent revolution against the system that began the war. Wars are fought these days primarily for profit. Once soldiers become demoralized enough to stop fighting, business cannot continue and the war has to end. This is basically what ended the Vietnam Conflict though I doubt protests against soldiers had much effect in that case. Attrition in the battlefield itself was the biggest factor.

I tend to disagree with you on this.....
when they opted into the service, it was for a noble cause...to protect our country..(although I admit it might have been because they couldn't find a decent job, had no healthcare, wanted a college education, ect..) They are sworn to protect our country, and the military is built as a heirarchy, where the little soldiers are expected to just obey the orders that are passed down and well, everything is on a need to know basis.
If a true threat to our country were to occur, well, I think that this arrangement would just about be necessary to defend our nation. our servicemen and women are doing the jobs they were sworn to do, protect our country by obeying the orders that they are given.
the condemnation, the criticism, ect...even for the prison abuse, should be laid at the door of the white house and pentagon, the ones whose orders led to the mess we have now.

What you seem to be saying is that we can convince them to stop the war if we attack our troops in an effort to emotionally destroy them....
well, what I am saying is we could also stop it if we forced those in power who issued their orders to begin with to be accountable for thier own actions instead of allowing them to hide behind the innocent troops!



[edit on 4-4-2005 by dawnstar]

just how do you propose that they leave....it's a long dangerous walk home from Iraq!!!

[edit on 4-4-2005 by dawnstar]

As an Army Combat Engineer currently serving in Iraq it's nice to hear people supporting "us" and not necessarily the war that we live with everyday here.

Now for someone like you Frith to sit there and make a statement about us "voluntarilly and willfully killing other human beings" is absurd we didn't come here to do that we came here to stop just that. We don't sit here everyday and go out and shoot people we are actually helping the Iraqi poeple to rebuild their own country and they are doing all the work. What we are doing is giving them a reason to have pride in their country and themselves so that we don't have to be over here.

If you had the balls to come over here and see how the average Iraqi citizen lives here compared to all the palaces that Sadaam has in every major city where his friends and family once lived it would sicken you. When we go out on patrols it's great to see the children who half the time don't have shoes or ragged clothes on sitting there waving at us. The houses that you see in the small towns way out and literally mu brick houses and they only have power for 2 hours a day.

So you think we are such a bad guy well what about how these people lived before we came here to free them from Sadaam's tyranical rule. Let's put this into a little perspective for a moment. When we go out on patrols we have a large arsenal of weapons ranging from the typical M-16 all the way up to a .50cal machine gun. Now the .50cal is a large weapon and probably strike fear into someone at the other end of the barrel but it doesn't; now when I pull out my 9mm pistol their eyes get big and they litterally shake in terror by the sight of this tiny pistol. The reason for this is that Sadaam's people used to just walk down the street and shoot people in the head for no reason what so ever. That is exactly why we came over here was to stop this from happening and that's it.

Listening to an uneducation ingorant moron such as yourself sickens me when you are probably going to be the first one crying and running around frantic when terrorists strike in your town next because all people like you can do is protest the war instead of thinking of other ways to help us get home faster by helping the Iraqi's become a soveriegn nation of the people, for the people, and by the people.

Originally posted by negativenihil
Mr Carburetor-

Why don't you save yourself a ton of typing and just come out and say you don't think citizens should be allowed to protest the war? I mean it sure seems like that is your real feeling.

"I support the right to protest, but it's hurting our troops" seems to be your stated position, but what do you offer for a solution? Stop protesting? I too have family and friends in the military and in the line of fire and that is EXACTLY why i protest! why should their lives be risked for a cause that wasn't even based on truth?!?

There were no WMD.
Saddam was not linked to 9/11.
Saddam was not linked to bin Laden.
We are clearly not welcome in Iraq.

If the lives of my brothers and friends are not worth protesting for, i don't know what is.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by negativenihil]

Sure, I will come out and say that i don't support protesting and demoralizing our troups. My point is that i do this respectfully. I understand that others have a differerent point of view. I simply offer a flip side view to protesting. Sure i don't wish my family member to have to go to war. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE AT WAR AND HAVE BEEN FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

My major disagreement is somthing like what FRITH says. He claims that our soldiers shoot random innocent people.
To both Negativenihil and Frith......these soldiers are people just like us. Do you believe they really go over there and shoot random innocents at will???? Would you???
Basis of the fact is that they are doing their best to both route out terrorists, and insurgents all the while protecting their own lives. The image of innocents dying left and right comes from the media ...not the soldiers intent themselvs.

To Frith: You claim i support the soldiers killing innocent people?? Wrong! I support the soldiers that are fighting the terrorists and insergents that have killed many innocents for decades. The people who killed many of our own at 911. The peope who supported Saddam who murdered hundreds of thousands of his own citizens.

Originally posted by dawnstar
Just how do you propose that they leave....it's a long dangerous walk home from Iraq!!!

Walk, run, jog. Whatever it takes.

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
To both Negativenihil and Frith......these soldiers are people just like us. Do you believe they really go over there and shoot random innocents at will???? Would you???

Don't drag me into your little pissing match here, i have said no such things.

Did you miss this part?

I too have family and friends in the military

No where have i said they are off randomly shooting people, so please - next time don't put words in my mouth.

I simply offer a flip side view to protesting. Sure i don't wish my family member to have to go to war. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE AT WAR AND HAVE BEEN FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

And your "flipside" is what? remaining silent while our brothers are killed every day in a war that we started - a war that was started on lies?

IncognitoGhostman

My highest respects and wishes to you. Please know that there are a great many people here that wish you the best. My brother is a Propulsions Aviation Tech in the AirForce. Goodluck to you brave gentleman.

Carburetor

Originally posted by negativenihil

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
To both Negativenihil and Frith......these soldiers are people just like us. Do you believe they really go over there and shoot random innocents at will???? Would you???

Don't drag me into your little pissing match here, i have said no such things.

Did you miss this part?

I too have family and friends in the military

No where have i said they are off randomly shooting people, so please - next time don't put words in my mouth.

I simply offer a flip side view to protesting. Sure i don't wish my family member to have to go to war. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE AT WAR AND HAVE BEEN FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

And your "flipside" is what? remaining silent while our brothers are killed every day in a war that we started - a war that was started on lies?

I appologize negativenihil .....you did say no such thing. I was simply trying to make a point that our soldiers are not over there to murder innocent people. Since you have a family member over there, i was simply asking the question. I know you really don't think that your family member is over there to murder innocent people. I certainly don't believe my brother is there to do that. I am not trying to create a pissing match. Just simply debating my post and beliefs. Once again i appologize for offending you as it wasn't attended that way.

Originally posted by Frith

Originally posted by dawnstar
Just how do you propose that they leave....it's a long dangerous walk home from Iraq!!!

Walk, run, jog. Whatever it takes.

ummm....I see...

I have friends that do business in canada on a regular basis, they told me that the rules are changing, soon you will need a passport just to get into canada.....so, even if they make it back to the states, it's unlikely that they will be able to hide in Canada. Are you offering the use of your cellar for them to hide in for the duration of the wars?

oh, and um....you forgot swim!!! there's a long swim between Iraq and home!

Originally posted by IncognitoGhostman
As an Army Combat Engineer currently serving in Iraq it's nice to hear people supporting "us" and not necessarily the war that we live with everyday here.

Now for someone like you Frith to sit there and make a statement about us "voluntarilly and willfully killing other human beings" is absurd we didn't come here to do that we came here to stop just that. We don't sit here everyday and go out and shoot people we are actually helping the Iraqi poeple to rebuild their own country and they are doing all the work. What we are doing is giving them a reason to have pride in their country and themselves so that we don't have to be over here.

If you had the balls to come over here and see how the average Iraqi citizen lives here compared to all the palaces that Sadaam has in every major city where his friends and family once lived it would sicken you. When we go out on patrols it's great to see the children who half the time don't have shoes or ragged clothes on sitting there waving at us. The houses that you see in the small towns way out and literally mu brick houses and they only have power for 2 hours a day.

So you think we are such a bad guy well what about how these people lived before we came here to free them from Sadaam's tyranical rule. Let's put this into a little perspective for a moment. When we go out on patrols we have a large arsenal of weapons ranging from the typical M-16 all the way up to a .50cal machine gun. Now the .50cal is a large weapon and probably strike fear into someone at the other end of the barrel but it doesn't; now when I pull out my 9mm pistol their eyes get big and they litterally shake in terror by the sight of this tiny pistol. The reason for this is that Sadaam's people used to just walk down the street and shoot people in the head for no reason what so ever. That is exactly why we came over here was to stop this from happening and that's it.

Listening to an uneducation ingorant moron such as yourself sickens me when you are probably going to be the first one crying and running around frantic when terrorists strike in your town next because all people like you can do is protest the war instead of thinking of other ways to help us get home faster by helping the Iraqi's become a soveriegn nation of the people, for the people, and by the people.

Your mission wasn't to protect the Iraqi people. It was to defend the United States of America from imminent attack from ready to launch WMD. Your mission has changed to allegedly be what you claim it is now, but thats not what you were there for initially. The United States military is not supposed to police other nations. Since the U.S. did not get permission to attack from the UN, the ONLY goal of the mission could be to defend the U.S. from imminent attack. There was nothing of defense value in the country so you and your military brethren need to leave the territory now to defend against real and unimagined threats.

Being on a conspiracy site should show you that I'm not an average ignorant citizen of the United States. Terrorist threat has been highly promulgated. No WMD, indefinite detention of alleged terrorists without criminal charges put upon them, and overturning of convictions or no convictions of those who actually are charged and find their way to trial. Most of it is bunk and most buy into it without question.

I know the military has to defend its reasoning and its Commander in Cheif without question. Thats what they instill into you through training and legal repurcussions from your contractual obligations. I'm not about to argue with somebody who is in the military trying to defend its actions because I'm dealing with somebody who cannot and will not publicly admit any wrongdoing for one reason or another.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Frith]

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
I appologize negativenihil .....

Apology accepted. i do understand debates can get heated quickly - so let's just move on.

I Know for sure that my brothers are not over there to shoot random civilians - the military has been a bit of a tradition to certain parts of my family, so it's not like they all signed up when the war on terror was started (most have been there for quite some time). They are over there because they have been ordered to do so.

Anyway- one question you may have missed, what exactly is your "flipside" to protesting?

Frith i agree......this is a conspiracy site.

HOwever conspiracy is debatable. Aparently you may have missed a huge event called 911 ?? where thousands of our own citizens died?

The US is taking a pro-active approch to protecting this nation. Saddam was a huge threat. He gased hundreds of thousands of his own people, invaded kuwait!!! Whether he did or didn't have WMD has not been fully proved on either side. The conclusion that "They couldn't find any" doesn't mean there wasn't a threat. Now I agree that our administration didn't have enough evidence to Justify the war by WMD,.....however after 911 the US was not going to sit and let somthing happen again. The new future fight of terrorism is being pro-active and removing the threat before it can establish itself.

Originally posted by negativenihil

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
I appologize negativenihil .....

Apology accepted. i do understand debates can get heated quickly - so let's just move on.

I Know for sure that my brothers are not over there to shoot random civilians - the military has been a bit of a tradition to certain parts of my family, so it's not like they all signed up when the war on terror was started (most have been there for quite some time). They are over there because they have been ordered to do so.

Anyway- one question you may have missed, what exactly is your "flipside" to protesting?

Thanks for understanding.
The flipside view that i simply trying to show is the demoralization of our troops. It has been shown as my links indicated and as soldiers have come back and indicated that protesting can be directly demoralizing on our soldiers who are trying to fight on the frontline. Now protesting got thrown in as the main discussion, however im talking broadly on all fronts of not supporting our troups from protesting to Michael Moore movies to sending negative letters directly to soldiers.