I believe we (Americans) view the interactions between the US and Japan during WW2 incorrectly.

Hear me out. No offense to anyone who lost family at Peral Harbor, but it was a military base and the people there were soildiers, right? Soildiers join the military expecting to go to war. In actually from a military family, I know how that is. When Japan attacked, it was attacking a military target during a war. The element of surprise is a valid strategy. From a strategic and moral perspective, was it really that bad of them to do? What does the US do (a bit later)? They destroy two full cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing hundreds of thousands of civilization men, women, and children. Now of course stopping them from supporting another country in that war is good and may have saved many innocent lives around the world, and I'm not denying that. I'm simply stating that in my opinion, the attack on Pearl harbor sucked, but it was not a great evil like its taught in schools. The whole Hiroshima and Nagasaki thing was through. Am I wrong?

a reply to: Jeremiah33three
The flaw in your argument is "during a war". No state of war was in existence between the United States and Japan at the time. Legally, the two countries were at peace. That is the point of the indignation that followed the event.

a reply to: Jeremiah33three

War is evil, people who support or downplay it are evil. There is nothing heroic or worthwhile with war, whoever is telling you different is part of the problem.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I suppose I missed that point. That does negate my argument.

a reply to: Jeremiah33three

that's all bullsh@@, japan was no better than germany, was all about about expanding their rule across the world and they thought they were the superior race just like the nazis in the 30's, and attacked anybody that they thought stood in their way or whose territory they wanted.

The Japanese were for the most part have been brought up to believe.American saved Japan. Some old timers still hate Americans.

a reply to: Jeremiah33three

War had not been declaired when Pearl Harbor was attached. The Japanese diplomats delivered the declaration of war to the American President after the attack. This was because the secretary that typed for the diplomats was out that day and they could not type fast enough.

That is the very important part you left out.

War is very bad and should always be so because we should not engage in war as a sport.

a reply to: Jeremiah33three
There is a possible argument that the oil sanctions imposed by America provoked war, because Japan could not fight in China without oil, but they didn't actually bring the war into existence. I wondered if you were going to explore that line.

originally posted by: BernnieJGato
a reply to: Jeremiah33three

that's all bullsh@@, japan was no better than germany, was all about about expanding their rule across the world and they thought they were the superior race just like the nazis in the 30's, and attacked anybody that they thought stood in their way or whose territory they wanted.

You mean a bit like the USA?

Japan sort of sucker punched the US with the attack on Pearl Harbor. They did so believing that the US was about to enter the war and attacked as a preemptive strike. From a strategic point of view it wasn't a bad idea. Japans biggest weapon in WWII was its navy. Putting a hurt on the US Navy was necessary if they were to have any chance of dominating the Pacific.

The real problem with the attack on Pearl Harbor was that many believe it wasn't a secret. British Prime Minister Churchill allegedly knew of the attack ahead of time but did not inform Roosevelt. The theory is that Churchill wanted the US involved in the war because he knew we would take up sides with the Allies and help save Britain from the Axis powers. The prevailing theory is that Britain intercepted radio communications regarding the attack on Pearl Harbor. However, it is commonly accepted as fact that the coordinated attacks by Japan that took place on December 7th were all conducted in radio silence by the Japanese. There were no radio signals to intercept.

Japan was certain the US was going to enter the war and knew that crippling the Navy was necessary. Britain wanted the US in the war to take some of the heat off of Britain, whether they knew of the attack ahead of time or not. The attack on Pearl Harbor was the event that fully mobilized the US and gave hope to the Allied powers that help was on the way.

The US didn't have to nuke Japan, the war was already won. It was a message to Russia and a chance for the filth to use their new toy.

originally posted by: midicon

The US didn't have to nuke Japan, the war was already won. It was a message to Russia and a chance for the filth to use their new toy.

Tell that to the Solders and Marines that were going to invade mainland Japan.

As bad as the nukes were they saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

originally posted by: Jeremiah33three
Hear me out. No offense to anyone who lost family at Peral Harbor, but it was a military base and the people there were soildiers, right? Soildiers join the military expecting to go to war. In actually from a military family, I know how that is. When Japan attacked, it was attacking a military target during a war. The element of surprise is a valid strategy. From a strategic and moral perspective, was it really that bad of them to do? What does the US do (a bit later)? They destroy two full cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing hundreds of thousands of civilization men, women, and children. Now of course stopping them from supporting another country in that war is good and may have saved many innocent lives around the world, and I'm not denying that. I'm simply stating that in my opinion, the attack on Pearl harbor sucked, but it was not a great evil like its taught in schools. The whole Hiroshima and Nagasaki thing was through. Am I wrong?

Look up the "Rape of Nanking", "The Bataan Death March" and "Unit 731".

a reply to: midicon

The US didn't have to nuke Japan, the war was already won. It was a message to Russia and a chance for the filth to use their new toy.

true japan would have lost eventually, they were driven back to their island for the most part and were ready to die down to the the last man, woman, and child if the U.S. and allies invaded.

i forget how many the estimate was for the death for civilians, and soldiers on both the japanese and allied side. it was in the millions if i recall correctly it was as high as 10 million, most would have been japanese civilians.

the estimates that the death toll for both nukes were 250, 000 the on high side.

what's really sad is, the hard headed japanese leaders didn't surrender after the first one. it took two, how stupid is that.

a reply to: Jeremiah33three

No great evil?

Maybe educate yourself on the "medical" experiments they conducted on the southeast Asian people. Look into their concentration camps.

They were just as bad if not worse than the Nazis.

I've always found it strange how Japan gets a pass for their atrocities just because we nuked them.

originally posted by: Jeremiah33three
Hear me out. No offense to anyone who lost family at Peral Harbor, but it was a military base and the people there were soildiers, right? Soildiers join the military expecting to go to war. In actually from a military family, I know how that is. When Japan attacked, it was attacking a military target during a war. The element of surprise is a valid strategy. From a strategic and moral perspective, was it really that bad of them to do? What does the US do (a bit later)? They destroy two full cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing hundreds of thousands of civilization men, women, and children. Now of course stopping them from supporting another country in that war is good and may have saved many innocent lives around the world, and I'm not denying that. I'm simply stating that in my opinion, the attack on Pearl harbor sucked, but it was not a great evil like its taught in schools. The whole Hiroshima and Nagasaki thing was through. Am I wrong?

If you look at it, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved lives. During the invasions of Saipan and Okinawa, Japanese civilians were told by their Army to commit suicide rather than be captured. They did. Right after the bombing of Hiroshima, there was an attempt by some in the Army to take over the Government because there was talk of surrender. US estimates were for over a million casualties for the invasion of Japan. That was just Allied casualties, that wasn't counting Japanese military and civilian casualties.

My Father had just finished Marine Boot Camp when the bombs were dropped on Japan. His unit was to be part of the invasion.

originally posted by: stosh64

originally posted by: midicon

The US didn't have to nuke Japan, the war was already won. It was a message to Russia and a chance for the filth to use their new toy.

Tell that to the Solders and Marines that were going to invade mainland Japan.

As bad as the nukes were they saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

There was no need for that invasion. Blaockades and further destruction would have brought an early surrender.

a reply to: Terpene

Human mythology has always gravitated towards war and bloodshed.

It is burned into our collective psyches that war is inevitable and at times desirable.

If there were all wise beings, one would think that they could conquer through love and understanding, a place for everyone under the sun.

Modern war is modern mythology, and the plebs will be swayed one way or another.

The only beneficiaries are the elite, and they craft the mythology surrounding the bloodshed they conscript you for.


War is for suckers, crafted by psychopaths who revel in their supporters need for their twisted authority.

The scary part is that I'm surrounded by billions of true believers who support their almighty idol for the bloodshed that they promise.

It's very spiritual unless you're part of the elite, at which point it becomes digital numbers on a screen representing wealth.

Amen.

originally posted by: midicon

originally posted by: stosh64

originally posted by: midicon

The US didn't have to nuke Japan, the war was already won. It was a message to Russia and a chance for the filth to use their new toy.

Tell that to the Solders and Marines that were going to invade mainland Japan.

As bad as the nukes were they saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

There was no need for that invasion. Blaockades and further destruction would have brought an early surrender.

absolutely NOT true. Japan was hoarding tanks and suicide planes and boats and preparing to fight to the death.
even though the country was starving the ruling class refused to consider surrender.

a reply to: Jeremiah33three



The u.s. military like to say Pearl Harbor. But the world doesn't care about Pearl Harbor. All the other countries surrounding Japan that were being invaded give a rats ass about Pearl Harbor. The children and women in Nanking being burnt alive aren't thinking about some Harbor somewhere of pearls. Korean sex slaves dont care for some Harbor somewhere in a fancy island with fancy drinks and young military men. Pearl Harbor is for movies and the U.S. fairy tales they need for newspapers. There's far more atrocities going on in the countries surrounding Japan that were being taken over and forced to do as the imperialists ordered or they were raped and beheaded. China was over ran... They were starving farmers. The Japs wielded swords and when hungry.... They ate their captives like Sashimi. Fresh. They didn't like complying with anyone because they were the greatest. Their racism was far deeper than just a skin tone. Korea was their brothel and killed any Koreans who spoke Korean... Wore traditional Korean clothes, hair, or ate Kim chi. They were not nice enough to build a camp for their slaves. They would try to get as much heads as possible to get rank in their military. They didn't have holes dug for dead Koreans like Nazis did with Jews.... They decapitate a Korean prostitute child for a speed bump when they don't even drive cars. Jews were allowed to speak their native tongue? Right? You couldnt do that under imperial rule. Nazis were pretty nice folks compared to all the chinamen beheaded to Katana swords. Have you seen the pictures of what Japanese do to innocent farming villages outside of Japan? They have the high ranking officer stand proud over hundreds of Chinese heads.

Them getting nuked over Pearl Harbor is just politics and Hollywood. The real reasons are not for the feint of heart. And would not be a good movie because of how brutal they were. 571 was a base the Japs had in northern China. You don't want to read about what they did there. It is hidden history. They were supposed to be a scientific lab for cleaning water. Nor do you want to read about the rape of Nanking. Its best to just accept the official Pearl Harbor story. You will not sleep at night otherwise.