Well written Mynaeris.

It must be said tough that some of the flaming starts when someone gets overly offended on their god or mothers behalf, and starts shouting at "the offender" without backing up their opinions with fact or reason.

Some religious people have a tendency to say "you're wrong" without any other reason than thinking you are. And when you push them a bit to get facts or good reasoning they go really really mad.

I have seen threads which should have been factual and inoffensive to the open minded go down the drain this way.

It works both ways.







:

Originally posted by gekko
Some religious people have a tendency to say "you're wrong" without any other reason than thinking you are.

And some atheists immediately se the word Christian and just go rabid.

A little tolerance and respect from all sides would surely make all our lives a little more pleasant.

Jack

I'm going to go waaaaaaaaay out on a limb here and explain the obvious to some people.

This is a Conspiracy Site.

That means (for example) if you're a Mason and spend all your time in the Secret Societies forum only to be "SHOCKED AND APPALLED" at the amount of vitriol and lunacy levied upon Masonry in that forum, you're an idiot. I'll go further to say that if you then continue to engage that forum with much hand wringing and constipation over the level of angst (and even hate) those posters have over Masonry, you're a glutton for punishment.

My advice then to Masons would be to not go there if you don't particularly enjoy debating with people that think you're misled at best or downright evil at worst.

And for the most part it seems the board Masons get that, and rather enjoy engaging the ignorance in that forum with superior wit and knowledge.

That doesn't mean someone can just post meaningless vitriol over and over like "All good Masons eat babies" any more than they can "All good Christians molest boys" or "All good Muslims hate freedom" over and over.

But they can say "I find all Masons, Christians and Muslims horribly misled, at the root of the world's problems, rather hypocritical, bad dressers, and I'm pretty sure some eat babies, molest boys and hate freedom."

I can even say the Pope, the President and Capitalism are all part of the same conspiracy to keep the people down, and I'm grinning to my back teeth the man called the most evangelical Pope in history won't be spreading his lies anymore. I can even say the Pope single handedly killed millions with his stance on condoms and might as well have just dropped a bomb on Africa as evangelized them. I can even say Pope John Paul II is a murderer that deserves the spot in hell reserved for genocidal maniacs like him and Reagen and I'm glad the mouthpiece for the special evil in the world known as Catholicsm is dead.

And you can say I'm wrong. And you can say you don't respect my beliefs. But you can't make me respect your beliefs any more than I can make you respect mine. If you don't get that, perhaps a conspiracy site isn't for you.

This site is not about respecting world leaders. I can't believe that even needs to be clarified.

Originally posted by JAK
A little tolerance and respect from all sides would surely make all our lives a little more pleasant.

Sure, thats my point exactly. Tolerance should work both ways.

"I respect your respect, and you respect my lack of respect" sort of... uh...

















:

[edit on 3/4/05 by gekko]

RANT, I'm happy to see you take that stance. As I mentioned earlier, I don't even use my "ignore" button as it seems to much like censorship. If I get to wound-up over a thread, I usually leave before I say something unforgivable. Usually...

What we have been discussing at this end of the thread (I think) is rather how to disrespect each-other in an inoffensive way, or thereabouts.














:

Originally posted by gekko
RANT, I'm happy to see you take that stance. As I mentioned earlier, I don't even use my "ignore" button as it seems to much like censorship. If I get to wound-up over a thread, I usually leave before I say something unforgivable. Usually...

What we have been discussing at this end of the thread (I think) is rather how to disrespect each-other in an inoffensive way, or thereabouts.
:

Well I'm taking that stance out of a bit of outrage over learning that some members have taken it upon themselves to form a little posse and target members they don't like or find offensive. I can only imagine this is a frequent chat gathering that's taken this position of self appointed mods upon themselves to contact and correct members they don't like.

Let me say the only reason they don't have blistering warns right now is the offended member doesn't take them nearly as seriously as they take themselves. But I'll be more than forthcoming in taking this kind of activity with urgent seriousness of response should anyone ever forward that kind of undercurrent and out of bounds authoritative communication again.

This is extremely offensive behavior on their part no matter what the goal.

Originally posted by RANT


Well I'm taking that stance out of a bit of outrage over learning that some members have taken it upon themselves to form a little posse and target members they don't like or find offensive.

Regulators Mount-up.


Really?

I haven't been attacked yet?

Wow, RANT...

Way to go! You posted EXACTLY what I've been afraid to, because I didn't want to kill another thread or get myself banned for being insensitive. Thanks for being honest and unafraid. It was cathartic to see that, for me at least.



Mynaeris
I agree, emotions are running a little high, okay a lot. I honestly didn't realize the pope dying would affect such sombre attitudes. I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that anyone besides ardent Catholics wouldn't be moved at all. But if the posts in any one of the threads dedicated to him are factual as to the religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) of members, then I stand corrected. People from all walks of life appear to be deeply moved by his passing. Maybe they're just jumping on the bandwagon to merge with what they perceive as the dominant social group, but I think a lot of them really perceived him to be a 'man of peace' and 'the best pope.'

I just couldn't understand it, I still don't really, but I can perceive it now better than before. I didn't before - the thought never occured to me that anybody besides Catholics would be as enthralled as they appear to be. I certainly wouldn't make jokes at the funeral held for my friend's mother, and even if they were ignorant and a tool of opression I probably wouldn't say so until people had left the gravesite.

I will say this though, it was not my intent to hurt anybody's feelings with my comment, as always I only wanted to illuminate. Sometimes people get injured as a result of that, and that's fine by me..but I'm not out to hurt people, just for the sake of sadism. It's an unfortunate thing that it apparently came across that way, and it was my fault for not expressing myself better. I'm sure I could have made my point better. My second post on the subject is probably a much more gentile way of stating my feelings. I'll reiterate here, let me know if this is perceived as trollish, or hateful.

Uete naki yoru neko ni ataeru mono ga nai.

Translation:

The starving cat cries;
I have nothing to give him.

-Santoka Taneda

Edited because though I gave credit for the haiku in the other thread, I forgot to do so here.

[edit on 3-4-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Question is, what to do? I believe a lot can be done without bringing the mods into it. They do a good job, but as there are some 40 000 of us, it would be good if we to could do something.

Oh, there is...(my personal tips, not the views of staff)

1. It takes TWO people to make an argument. Don't be that other person. One man arguing is simply a lunatic screaming at the walls...

2. Kill them with kindness. Simply keep replying, but always keeping a civil tone. In doing so, the opponent will only weaken his position as he continues his rant, and to any other posters, he'll again seem like a lunatic.

3. Don't respond to that poster in the thread, but respond to others (a selective ignore without using the button if you will). This may enrage the opponent further, but it's just baiting to get you to lose your temper. Don't give into it. The moment you then acknowledge it, you lost.

4. If all else fails, and the poster is violating the TOS (terms of service), report them to staff. Really, we're all mature here (or try to be on occassion), so if you can't take the heat, well, you knew it was hot when you came into the kitchen.... So this should be the LAST option.

5. Just remember the reason you came here in the first place....

[edit on 3-4-2005 by Gazrok]

I just heard about this "posse" that has formed to "correct" members they don't like.

If you are on this "posse" bail OUT now. I promise you this, ATS will NOT tolerate mobs running about intimidating other members for ANY REASON.

Clear?

This site is for the OPEN exchange of ideas, POLITE conversation, POLITE debate and the FREEDOM to reply with your opinions or thoughts on ANY subject no matter your perspective on it.

ANYONE who follows the Terms and Conditions has every bit as much a right to post here as anyone else PERIOD.

This is the stuff that INFURIATES ME - splinter groups or "cliques" that go off by themselves and quietly discuss the percieved (by them) deficiencies in others and plot out how they are going to "fix it".

I hope I am VERY CLEAR on this.

m...

So a little posse is going to be running around ATS?

hmm...another day in the life of ATS

Originally posted by infinite
So a little posse is going to be running around ATS

NO

Posses on ATS is nothing new really. Partisans on all sides have a tendency to gang up on members they don't like.

This one seems to have been a bit more organized and overt by the sound of it though. Wonder how they were found out, were they silly enough to post their intent on one of the forums?

Anyway, it's good to see so many replies from mods on the subject, but I must admit I can't quite see any consistency on how to deal with it for the members (except not making posses...).

After nearly 20 years in online communities of one form or another, there is only one method that works well with flamers and trolls --- ignore them.

Flames need fuel. Trolls need to be fed. Never forget that.

Originally posted by RANT
I can even say the Pope, the President and Capitalism are all part of the same conspiracy to keep the people down, and I'm grinning to my back teeth the man called the most evangelical Pope in history won't be spreading his lies anymore. I can even say the Pope single handedly killed millions with his stance on condoms and might as well have just dropped a bomb on Africa as evangelized them. I can even say Pope John Paul II is a murderer that deserves the spot in hell reserved for genocidal maniacs like him and Reagen and I'm glad the mouthpiece for the special evil in the world known as Catholicsm is dead.

And you can say I'm wrong. And you can say you don't respect my beliefs. But you can't make me respect your beliefs any more than I can make you respect mine. If you don't get that, perhaps a conspiracy site isn't for you.

This site is not about respecting world leaders. I can't believe that even needs to be clarified.

Well for a moderator you sure know how to heat things up again.
As allready stated by relentless, and mynaeris (great posts by the way) it is not about your opinion, it is about the way you choose to display it.

Some ATSers, are just better at always sharing their point of view in a very respectfull and polite way (JAK for example) than others (wyrdeone and now RANT for example).

And some, who I will not mention here, share their opinion in such a tasteless and rude way that it makes you wonder what their goal was to even put it like they did, besides just "giving their opinion".

Some people like to shock and like to be harsh. It's not just trolls distorting and derailing threads...

[edit on 3-4-2005 by Jakko]

Jakko

Tereba naite kumoreba naiete yagi ippiki
-S.T.

Discussion forums function by the use of members beliefs and opinions. Without either of these you have no discussion. Yes many people get upset because they don't like the reply that was written by another member. So what. They may not like your reply. Trolls are in the eye of the beholder.

The ability to surf the net for material to use on the discussion forum does not make you almighty. Sometimes this can be downright irritating. Look at some of the questions being posed here. Ok trying not to flame but you get my point. We all have a right to use the forum as long as we stay within the boundaries set for us by our local ATS gov't.

Originally posted by Springer
This site is for the OPEN exchange of ideas, POLITE conversation, POLITE debate and the FREEDOM to reply with your opinions or thoughts on ANY subject no matter your perspective on it.

ANYONE who follows the Terms and Conditions has every bit as much a right to post here as anyone else PERIOD.

Exactly.
So what happens when someone follows the terms and conditions but is NOT POLITELY using his FREEDOM to reply with opinions or thought on ANY subject no matter what their perspective on it?

Not being polite can not be punished right?
The grey area between impolite and rude is huge, and I am wondering when it makes sense to inform a mod about someone being impolite/rude.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Jakko

Tereba naite kumoreba naiete yagi ippiki
-S.T.

You probably didn't just tell me how much you love me, right?
Just to make it clear, my post was not ment as any kind of attack, my apologees if I made it sound like that.
Your way of putting things to words is what makes you unique and not right or wrong. It can come across a bit harsh sometimes, but I think it is a good thing you argue with passion.

Well, now I am totally confused. First we are told by Rant that pretty much anything goes and suck it up , then Springer mentions the words polite as some sort of criteria. (Actually, I think that's all that was being asked for in the first place.)

So which is it? May we get an ATS definition of polite? I am totally serious at this point. Because it is my understanding at this point that anything goes except directly calling another member names. I think polite includes being respectful in real life. Obviously this may not be the case here.

Please clarify.