Heaven & Hell are on Earth

In my experience, few people really think about HEAVEN & HELL from an objective standpoint. As in if they exist, where are these places? What are they like? Who is there?

People might reference Dante's 9 circles of HELL allegorically or metaphorically. Christians might believe heaven is gazing at Jesus all day. Why the hell would I want to do that? Nevermind the idealized image of Jesus is totally false. Of course, Christians already violate one of the early commandments in having an image of God / Jesus. Muslims don't have an image of God per se, what do they think?

Buddhists / Hindus accept reincarnation. Some folks believe you reincarnate on another planet. Frankly, in my experience, *those who accept reincarnation don't really integrate the heaven / hell concept.* It's usually just a simplified - I'll be reborn again - as an animal for some. Not stopping to think about how this is logically / "scientifically" possible. "By the Universe" for those who really like to abstract things / use big words / have no idea what they're talking about.

TV might show someone dying and going to meet their parents / relatives in some ghostly spiritual form. Really? What about a baby that died. What about aborted babies? (Nevermind when the soul enters the womb - it's not as early as some think) Are you going to this idealized world and going to encounter a baby? Really...all flights of fancy.

Maybe there's a History Channel episode about this, but frankly I don't know how heaven & hell is depicted in other religions / belief systems that much. I could do a web search, but I'm lazy, as I just want to write this w/ o interrupting my train of thought. Feel free to post videos or weblinks please.

So...I'm here to share what I've learned. I think I mentioned this in a thread a long time ago (Years). Part of another or was it my own, I don't remember. I'm too lazy to search. Maybe I will do that later.

Well..part of the "truth" / story has been put in different places by our Creators. Cuz the big lesson, is we need to learn from others, learn from everywhere. Learning doesn't mean accepting wholesale what you encounter, but constantly adding / removing to "your truth" as you learn more. Sometimes you have to backtrack (significantly). You have to admit defeat / you've been fooled / ignorant.

Anyway - HEAVEN & HELL are on Earth. Just take a look around in the world (Not as easy / impossible to do in the past). If you've traveled a bit you have SOME real life experience. If not, you can look through picture books / watch videos. There are clearly places in the world where life is much more difficult / miserable. Grinding poverty in India, Asia, Africa? Being materially poor, doesn't mean hell. But it usually does in a BIG CITY, of which there are many these days.

Some places are RELATIVELY more miserable. Things could be normal, but still be miserable - if say, you are in a big city and you dislike that. Or in a concrete jungle and you are more into woods / forest. Or you could be relatively POOR in a very RICH place, and this makes things miserable.

Hell comes in different forms. You could be "monetarily rich" but suffering from depression, a different kind of hell. You could lose someone you love / care for and have all the $$ in the world, but you are now in "hell."

There are periods of TIME where a place is better / worse. Afghanistan - used to be much nicer from what I've seen, Europe during WW1 & 2 - for many was hell, and now splashed in the news is Ukraine. But let's not forget many other hotspots / conflict zones. But it's not just war zones, some places that were once lush are now suffering from "endless drought." Or forest fires ruin a once idyllic paradise, overpopulation, or sea level rise, etc..etc..

And underlying all this is the process of RE-IN-CAR-NATION. Your past KARma (Also CARNe - flesh) determines WHERE you are reborn into and your CIRCUMSTANCES of BIRTH. There is a whole system, and in time it will be revealed. There is also intervention / guidance by our CREATORS. They will tend to help those SOULS who are improving significantly or those who have certain tasks / missions to complete. They can also induce suffering - on an individual level or society level. Individual SOUL help is much more limited.

One principle also connected to this is: *WE (can) grow through suffering.*

For while suffering we are more apt to self-reflect / question things.

So anyway....this idea of HEAVEN & HELL will become more stark over this decade and the next. As the "End Times" events are fully revealed. War will destroy existing "more HEAVEN like places." (Which are in reality are cess-pits of deceit & treachery with a superficial veneer). Some places thought to be more "Hell like" will turn out to be more heavenly, as certain folks seek out simpler things.

The "End TImes" is not so much a Buddhist / Hindu concept (in my experience - correct me if I'm wrong). Of course, reincarnation is not a Christian / Islam concept other then in certain minority groups. So...like I said - part of the "truth" / story is in different places. Integrate them and you have a new understanding. There are videos that talk about the commonalities...in Christianity and Buddhism, for example.

Anyway..I'm bored, and this is what I wanted to type.

a reply to: dontneedaname
The New Testament offers two options;
a) Being in the presence of God
b) Not being in the presence of God
No further details are given (except as metaphors) about the difference between the two experiences.

Forgot to add - a new definition of what HEAVEN & HELL is are going to arise as the arc of possibilities of what they can be is going to arise.

More for HEAVEN then HELL I'll add. But that part of the story is better not told, but experienced.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: dontneedaname
The New Testament offers two options;
a) Being in the presence of God
b) Not being in the presence of God
No further details are given (except as metaphors) about the difference between the two experiences.

Might help to know WHO GOD IS. How many people really question that? How many SOULS really want to know beyond some abstract idea. Not many in my experience...

Anyone can claim to "know god" -- look how those lives turned out.

I used the word CREATORS...this is PLURAL. I already know who they are..but chose not to mention that.


Matthew 18 - paraphrased: If you do not become like a child (of the 1st century), YOU WILL NEVER ENTER the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

Bottom line - THERE ARE NO ADULTS IN HEAVEN!!! So..boom right there...all this talk about going to heaven - just lies. If you accept these words of Jesus.

I agree that Heaven and Hell is here but I’d say it is more ‘inside us’ vs here. We are multidimensional which means we have hell dimensions, heavenly dimensions and dimensions beyond heaven and hell.

a reply to: dontneedaname
I was, of course, using the New Testament definition of God, since we are dealing with concepts originating from the teaching of the New Testament.

originally posted by: AcrobaticDreams
I agree that Heaven and Hell is here but I’d say it is more ‘inside us’ vs here. We are multidimensional which means we have hell dimensions, heavenly dimensions and dimensions beyond heaven and hell.

In part that is true. But it's also external. Some folks are "too material" some folks are "too spiritual" I always think to China vs India from a broad NATION level.

China is super materialistic, India is super spiritual. Both are just extremes. And frankly, neither is "the way."

Yes the ENEMY is IN ME, but sometimes there are external threats (or rather issues) which must be dealt with.

I hate that word "dimensional" it means nothing to me in this context.

You have your EMOTIONAL (inside) health, but you also have to take care of your PHYSICAL body / vessel. And also PHYSICAL environment. (Water, air, etc...)

a reply to: dontneedaname

Physicality is more how you experience the different dimensions inside yourself and transforming those physical things (like forgiving someone who abused you) allows you to enter different dimensions inside you. So yes, physicality is imperative but it is all about to experience your inner world. An addiction to drugs or food for instance is an inner experience but kicking the addiction allows you to enter another inner experience. If you die in the midst of addiction, you will want to come back to physicality because you want to transform/move beyond that hell state.

www.transparency.org...

Ukraine and Russia. In place 117, 129 on the Corruption Perceptions Index.

Translation - lots of LIARS in both places. Those scores translate into an F grade when it comes to speaking the truth.

Relatively speaking - some of those souls are more truthful then others. There is difference between HOW our Creators see, and how "the average human" sees LIFE.

Do you think there are LIARS in "HEAVEN"? The "final heaven." Or must you be 100% truthful to enter?

Re-in-car--> NATION. Everyone gets what they deserve. Be careful who you "cry / weep" for.

Learning the ORIGINAL story of the LITTLE MERMAID's plight might be insightful. Endless suffering. [Story comes from Denmark --> usually the most honest / truthful nation..or in the top 3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Since no country scores 100, do you think anyone is in heaven? Ever, in all of recorded history? Was Jesus a liar in some (relatively small) way? Was he not perfect? Did he ever say he was "perfect?" Would you believe that? What is "perfect?" After all, a perfect man/woman to you, might be ugly to another.

DOES THE HELL/ETERNAL CONSCIOUSNESS TORMENT DOCTRINE HOLD UP TO SCRUTINY?

Most folks listen to their priest/preacher/minister and also read their Bibles, and most of the time they hear or see “Hell” mentioned, and they usually accept it as a given, in a prima facie sense. I ask you, however, is it so? Does this word and concept belong in the Bible? Does it really belong in the theology of so many churches? Let’s dig down into the “infernum” of our subject. Infernum? It originally meant that which is below...or simply underground, not the modern understanding of “inferno.”

The witness of the creation accounts

Genesis, chapters 1 and 2, are the basic Biblical story of the creation of the cosmos and everything in it. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” as we read in Genesis 1:1. Note that there is no mention of God also creating Hell. Chapter 1 goes on to state six times that the creation was good, and the last time as VERY good. The existence of Hell would have made it less good, but then, that was before the Fall, so it may not apply. If God made it later, it is not mentioned anywhere, but if you don’t believe me, examine this list of scriptures mentioning creation:

Exodus 20:11
Isaiah 40:26
Isaiah 45:7-8, 18
Mark 10:6
John 1:1-5
Romans 1:20,25
Romans 8:19-22
I Corinthians 8:6
II Corinthians 5:17
Ephesians 2:10
Colossians 1:16-17, 20
Hebrews 11:3
Revelation 4:11

In Isaiah 45:7 we see a mention of light and darkness, but this is not a hint of Hell, if someone were hoping so, for darkness is simply where the light has yet to penetrate.

So, Hell appears to be uncreated, but there is more.

The witness of the translated terms

We will find the origin of Hell presently, but first let’s look at the words and terms it was translated from.

1. Sheol

“Sheol” is from the Hebrew, and generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. It is translated in the KJV and probably other translations into one of three words: grave, pit (about half the time) or hell (about half the time). Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” into three words, as the translators have done. They could have very well let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. I suppose they needed some support for the hell doctrine in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-rendered-as-hell, there is so very little to go that way.

I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses on the “hell” side mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent.

Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were translated in one way or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 - I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “he bringeth down to hell,” but what would they have done with the following, “and bringeth up”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” side of translation.

We have the same problem in reverse, on the “hell” side. Psalm 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” side, thus avoiding the ban on exit from hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We see it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

2. Hades

“Hades” is the best Greek equivalent for the Hebrew term “sheol.” However, it is a pagan word from a pagan culture, and thus, brought in some unfortunate theological baggage. It is translated as “hell” consistently in most Bibles, except for one instance. I wondered if it was a matter of context, so I examined all eleven instances of the word, and found that context did allow in ten, if a whole town (Capernaum) going to hell is not too much to swallow. The one time when “hades” was rendered as “grave” was in I Corinthians 15:55. Now context might have allowed, but Paul’s taunt of, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” follows after Hosea 13:14 “O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction.” If either were rendered as “hell,” it would have violated the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine, and the whole idea would have been exposed if hell were robbed of its victory and subject to destruction.

The last two instances of “hades” to “hell” are in the Revelation, 20:13-14: “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” As these verses stand, they are confusing, and just muddy the waters. “Hades,” in the sense of the realm/place of the dead, would be clearer, and that is precisely what my Bible’s references suggest. The translators may have over-reached themselves here, however, for hell delivering up its dead, and hell cast into the Lake of Fire (destruction?) violate the no-exit/eternal-hell doctrine. Using “grave” or “sheol” would have cleared up the problems.

3. Gehenna

“Gehenna” is used in the Bible some twelve times, depending on the version, and refers to a physical place in the real world that you can visit today. In the OT, it was the “Valley of the Sons of Hinnom,” where children were sacrificed to idols. The form we read in the NT is a Greek transliteration. Now since it is a place in the real world, a fact no one can dispute, I believe its translation as “hell” is NOT justified.

4. Tartarus

This is yet another pagan word from a pagan culture, and only used once, in II Peter 2:4. For the Greeks, it was a prison for the Titans and some people - to Peter, it was a prison for some spirit beings. Should we really hang a doctrine on the single use of a term?

Further, if these four terms were NOT translated as “hell,” would any of us have suspected such a place, such an outcome? If we take the Bible at face value, how do we explain God failing to tell us that He made the place? How do we view God’s sketchy warnings? Why did He warn Adam and Eve of only death...if Hell were a real place? The warnings He gave to many after that follow the same pattern: simple death was the only listed outcome.

So, examination of the four underlying words translated to “hell” fails to support the concept, especially as two of them are pagan terms. So let’s move on to…

The witness of paganism

You the reader may be wondering at this point, something like “What the hell?” and I fully sympathize. Where did this word “hell” come from, anyway? Happily, we have some bread crumbs. Not only do we have the help of our Bible’s marginal references, telling us to “see sheol,” “see hades,” “see gehenna,” and “see tartarus” - we have the following:

1. I have an Oxford English Dictionary, and it lists the year in which a word first appears in the English language. For “hell” that year is about 825 AD. In that period, Norse and Danes were pouring into the eastern part of Britain, and the Danelaw resulted. Nordic words were coming into use as well as Nordic rule, and “hel” was one such word. Here’s a sampling from related languages, again, from the OED:

continued...

Old English - hel
Old Frisian - helle, hille
Old Saxon - hellja, hella
Old High German - helle
Old Norse - hel, heljar
Gothic - halja
Original Teutonic – halja

It’s useful to know that the original meaning of such words was ”to hide, to cover” used as verbs, and “hidden, covered” used as adjectives - a reference to the grave, but not to the common understanding of hell as used today. We pick up breadcrumbs in the 1611 KJV, where we see “hell,” and also “hel,” used twice. We see “hel” (and “hell” and “hella”) a lot more in the epic “Beowulf,” which was written in Old English - actually, it was the Anglo-Saxon language, spoken also on the continent in those days. Under the baptized veneer of the story is a pagan subtext, and the Angles and Saxons were pagans if you go very far back in time. Note in the list above that Old Norse shared “hel” with Old English/Anglo Saxon, and it so happens that that breadcrumb leads to something in the culture of Old Norway.

It is in Norse mythology, that we find paydirt - the pagan Norse believed that if you did not rate going to Valhalla when you died, you would spend the afterlife in Helheim, or “House of Hel.” Hel was the supposed ruler of Helheim, they thought, and was considered a goddess or ogress, and very ugly.

2. Have you ever seen a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell? It is all too familiar: fire, demons and the suffering damned in scenes of torture and misery. The Islamic Hell is much like it, but less inventive. Some other religions have a Hell, and some don’t. So you see, Hell is not exclusively a Christian thing, which might impell you to wonder where Hell came from – it did with me.

The witness of helling

As I said, “hell” is a verb, as well as a noun, and is derived from an old Germanic word, meaning, “to hide or cover.” My father told me about this years ago - if a farmer lacked a root cellar or a cellar/basement under the house, and needed a place to keep veggies or fruits over the winter, he would do the following. First, he would dig a pit or trench deeper than the local frost line. Then, he would line the bottom with straw. On top of that, he’d place a layer of, say, potatoes. More straw went on top of the potatoes, and he would finish the job by shoveling in the dirt previously dug out. This is called “helling the potatoes.” Going to Hell, then, just means going into the ground...or the grave.

The witness of truth

So - having tracked hell down to its likely source in pagan mythology/religion, what should we believe? God has some cheery news for us: the Jubilee. Every 49 years, at a set time, everyone who had fallen into slavery was freed, and had land and possessions returned - see Leviticus 25:8-13. Are you mired in sin? Aren’t we all? The Bible tells us to resist sin, the flesh, the adversary...but so few seem to overcome in this life. However, do not despair - the same Book has the solution: Romans 6:7, “For he that is dead is freed from sin.” The Law of the Jubilee is a foreshadowing of our future.

This is our Jubilee - after a lifetime as slaves to sin, we are freed! How do we know we are all saved? I Corinthians 15:28 tells us, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” Yes, “all” in this verse really means ALL - you, me and everyone! Jesus the Christ really is the Savior of the World, in fact, of the entire created Cosmos! I need to add that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, and is not ID’d as Hell in the Revelation. After a long word study on “fire” in the Bible, which is beyond the scope of this short essay, I concluded that all mentions of fire in the Bible are either natural fire or a manifestation of God, or as I like to call it, Godfire. The Burning Bush Moses found (or did it find Moses?) is a good place to start – the bush on fire, but not consumed. Therefore, I am compelled to see the Lake of Fire as Godfire, which is both punitive, corrective and transformational. I will leave you with I Corinthians 3:15 - “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

       

Evil does exist so there has to be a spiritual place where pure evil solely exists. The spiritual realm would mirror our material realm in that there are people who know they are good or that they are evil and people who follow good and evil.

originally posted by: Smigg
Evil does exist so there has to be a spiritual place where pure evil solely exists. The spiritual realm would mirror our material realm in that there are people who know they are good or that they are evil and people who follow good and evil.

Who follows evil? That is like saying people who do wrong and know they are wrong. Nobody thinks they are evil or wrong. There is always a justification for a greater good-I killed these people to feed my family or I stole so I could get high because I was an addict. Even in Christianity Satan does not think he is evil.

If you eat meat-you partake in terrible torture and death of sentient beings that probably would say you were evil (you surely would say an alien species that farms and eats humans are evil)-but you don’t think you are for doing so because you have to eat.

God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil to allow us to experience truth in our sensations. That tree is termed the lake of fire of suplur and brimstone in revelation. Suplur and brimstone was used by the ancients to refine gold. Likewise the tree of knowledge of good and evil refines our nature until we no longer seek any rewards in egotistical desires (no longer wanting to taste the apple). The first death we experience is when our mortal body dies. If we still have unfulfilled desires we will re-enter the tree of knowledge of good and evil and experience a second death (or more precisely entrapment) of our soul within another egotistical mind/body.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
DOES THE HELL/ETERNAL CONSCIOUSNESS TORMENT DOCTRINE HOLD UP TO SCRUTINY?


continued...

THanks for posting that. Can you provide a link where you got it from?

So...long story short, there is no Hell....other then Hell, Norway? Which I saw as the train passed by.
Or rather - no biblical basis for Hell. Or flimsy one at that.

I mean, is there even a heaven?

Still doesn't negate the idea of re-in-car-NATION. Just somewhere along the line these terms became popular / commonly used.

NATIONality - NATIONalism - interNATIONal - domiNATION - destiNATION ...many others.

Pattern more/less holds across all European, and possibly many other indo-european languages. It's been awhile since I studied it. Different but similar pattern in Chinese.

If you presume that our Creators gave us our language more/less...then the clues are in it.

originally posted by: Smigg
Evil does exist so there has to be a spiritual place where pure evil solely exists. The spiritual realm would mirror our material realm in that there are people who know they are good or that they are evil and people who follow good and evil.

D-evil...look in the dictionary all the words that start with DE...might see common pattern.

u know...like DEvious - DEstruction - DEmon - DEceit - DEath - DEbt....not 100%...but very high %. Must also understand how sounds cancel each other out.

I disagree..."evil" is relative. What is "evil" to you, is not to me. It's just cause & effect.

Is Putin "Evil?" Or is it just cause & effect? Is NATO "evil? or just cause & effect? Are liars evil? Are drugs evil? Is money the root of all evil? Is war evil? Is genocide evil? Is racism evil? Are Jews evil? Is terrorism evil? Is Chucky evil?

Shallow thinking labels thing as evil, rather then discovering the true nature / mechanism. As for the nature behind Chucky, I cannot offer any insight into that.

There is no such thing as "good or evil" in an absolute sense. There's just cause & effect. There are "better" outcomes that we have learned by experience. We might classify that as "good" and the "lesser" outcomes as "evil."

originally posted by: dontneedaname

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
DOES THE HELL/ETERNAL CONSCIOUSNESS TORMENT DOCTRINE HOLD UP TO SCRUTINY?


continued...

THanks for posting that. Can you provide a link where you got it from?

I wrote it.

I believe on Earth it is a combination of the lowest level of Heaven and the highest level of Hell. An individual has (of course) their own free will and they choose their eternal home; by the way they live their lives.

originally posted by: dontneedaname

originally posted by: Smigg
Evil does exist so there has to be a spiritual place where pure evil solely exists. The spiritual realm would mirror our material realm in that there are people who know they are good or that they are evil and people who follow good and evil.

D-evil...look in the dictionary all the words that start with DE...might see common pattern.

u know...like DEvious - DEstruction - DEmon - DEceit - DEath - DEbt....not 100%...but very high %. Must also understand how sounds cancel each other out.

I disagree..."evil" is relative. What is "evil" to you, is not to me. It's just cause & effect.

Is Putin "Evil?" Or is it just cause & effect? Is NATO "evil? or just cause & effect? Are liars evil? Are drugs evil? Is money the root of all evil? Is war evil? Is genocide evil? Is racism evil? Are Jews evil? Is terrorism evil? Is Chucky evil?

Shallow thinking labels thing as evil, rather then discovering the true nature / mechanism. As for the nature behind Chucky, I cannot offer any insight into that.

There is no such thing as "good or evil" in an absolute sense. There's just cause & effect. There are "better" outcomes that we have learned by experience. We might classify that as "good" and the "lesser" outcomes as "evil."

A few years ago the trunk of a male child was found floating in the River Thames then a year or so later another body was found. Each boy was around 10 years old and the arms, legs and head were missing from both. Both children had been sacrificed so let me ask you, do you think the people who sacrificed those two children are evil?

originally posted by: AcrobaticDreams

originally posted by: Smigg
Evil does exist so there has to be a spiritual place where pure evil solely exists. The spiritual realm would mirror our material realm in that there are people who know they are good or that they are evil and people who follow good and evil.

Who follows evil? That is like saying people who do wrong and know they are wrong. Nobody thinks they are evil or wrong. There is always a justification for a greater good-I killed these people to feed my family or I stole so I could get high because I was an addict. Even in Christianity Satan does not think he is evil.

If you eat meat-you partake in terrible torture and death of sentient beings that probably would say you were evil (you surely would say an alien species that farms and eats humans are evil)-but you don’t think you are for doing so because you have to eat.

It all depends on if a person knows what evil is or it can be confusing.