Prayers, spells and wishes

Someone can pray to a god for someone to fall in love with them [for example], others might cast a love spell [both prayers and spells can use encarnations] and someone might say "I wish". Why is a spell considered sorcery and a prayer not? Apart from the cultural and religious origins, they all seem to be the same thing- is it only the language that is different?

It's only considered bad in the Christian faith and I have no idea why......though I "think" it's more of a "not delve into the "future" that is considered really bad. Why? I'm not sure, it appears that someone high in the Christian faith doesn't want anyone other than those "allowed" to to by the higher ups to do anything considered "gifted". Perhaps it's a way of keeping those that "they" want to look "special" and to keep others from realizing that they too are "like the gods" and can perform things if they try.....


"And the lord said, Look, the man has become as one of us, knowing good from evil: and now, what if he put forth his hand, and takes also from the Tree Of Life, and eats, and lives forever?"
Genesis 3:22

As a side note though....those that follow the "Rede" would never cast a spell to make someone love you...it is forbidden to cast spells that would make anyone do anything that would go against their free will....you may cast something around yourself to make love come into your life...but that's it.

Originally posted by LadyV
it appears that someone high in the Christian faith doesn't want anyone other than those "allowed" to to by the higher ups to do anything considered "gifted". Perhaps it's a way of keeping those that "they" want to look "special" and to keep others from realizing that they too are "like the gods" and can perform things if they try.....

I think you're right.. the word 'prayer' has more 'sacred' connotations placed on it [not that it is or isn't] so there is that inferiority/subordinence to 'god' ackowledged while in prayer. Spells etc. also utilise 'inner power' [?] so those spiritual power restriction are not there.

"And the lord said, Look, the man has become as one of us, knowing good from evil: and now, what if he put forth his hand, and takes also from the Tree Of Life, and eats, and lives forever?"
Genesis 3:22

As a side note though....those that follow the "Rede" would never cast a spell to make someone love you...

I've never heared of 'Rede' before.. how similar is that to wicka? Sounds interesting.

it is forbidden to cast spells that would make anyone do anything that would go against their free will....you may cast something around yourself to make love come into your life...but that's it.

So what happens to the 'caster' if they do something forbidden? khama? I think I had one placed on me [strange and negative experience- didn't work though].. reaki [sp] seemed to lift it thankfully.
Prayer does not have the same restrictions.. 'ask and ye shall recieve'.. if someone has a request that is at the expense of another.. would it be granted? Do spells and prayers use the same 'cozmic lines'? [odd way to put it but I can't think of another way].

here is the short version. I have a longer one but will have to find it.

Bide the Witch's law ye must,
In perfect love, in perfect trust.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
An ye harm none, do what ye will.
What ye send forth comes back to thee,
So ever mind the Rule of Three.
Follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part


here is a sort of guide that accomapies the REDE:

The Power shall not be used to bring harm, to injure or control others.
But if the need rises, the Power shall be used to protect your life or the lives of others.
The Power is used only as need dictates.
The Power can be used for your own gain, as long as by doing so you harm none.
It is unwise to accept money for use of the Power, for it quickly controls its taker.
Be not as those from other religions.
Use not the Power for prideful gain, for such cheapens the mysteries of Wicca and magic.
Ever remember that the Power is the sacred gift of the Goddess and God,
and should never be misused or abused.
And this is the Law of the Power.


[edit on 29-3-2005 by stalkingwolf]

They all seem the same, but draw upon whomever the wisher/prayer/caster has faith in: God, themselves, the supernatural, forces, whatever.

Prayer works. Haven't there been studies on this that I'm too lazy to look up? When large groups of people pray, their prayers are often "answered."

Personally, I believe thought is a powerful thing. All those people thinking and wishing create a lot of energy. It's not 'God' that answers specifically, but the power of thought and will.

True wishing - really feeling that desire and focusing on it, prayer, and spell casting all have the common thread of *focused* thought.

Originally posted by RedBalloon

Prayer works. Haven't there been studies on this that I'm too lazy to look up? When large groups of people pray, their prayers are often "answered."

Yes it does work...just as "spells" and "wishes" work....they are all pretty mush the exact same thing, as you said......thought is an energy form and very powerful, tie it with belief and strong concentration.....and you will have it!

I think that, at least from a Christian perspective, the reason that spells are considered evil is because of characters in the Bible. Characters like Simon Magus in Paul's time and the Witch of En-Dor (no, not the Ewok's home world, lol) that Saul consulted in the OT are evil by Christian standards because they derive power from a source other than God. Therefore, if it isn't from God, Christians assume it must be of the devil (whether spells are of the devil or not, I have no idea) At least scripturally, it seems that most (all?) people who pursued sorcerous power were corrupted by it. Maybe if a person used spells for good, as per stalkingwolf's guide, it wouldn't be so bad, but there's the saying that 'power corrupts', and I think that applies here.

For the record, it should be stated I don't really know much about the occult at all, but this seems a reasonable explanation. Feel free to correct me on any points I may have made.

but there's the saying that 'power corrupts', and I think that applies here.

You mean like inquisitions, witch burnings, mutilations, and priests with little boys?

This is such a good topic, pleeeease research the "conspiracy" here.

Are there prescribed doctrines on how to pray? How not to pray? Was there a purposeful union of majic and spirituality at some point? A falling out? A concerted effort to persecute one? Have books been written on this? Articles? Links? What does the Catholic Church say about prayer? The role of clergy in speaking to God? Protestants? What's the conspiracy theory here? Is there one?

Or should I just move this to Faith Spirituality and Theological Debate with everything else in this forum?

Originally posted by RANT
This is such a good topic, pleeeease research the "conspiracy" here.

Are there prescribed doctrines on how to pray? How not to pray? Was there a purposeful union of majic and spirituality at some point? A falling out? A concerted effort to persecute one?

Thats kind of the wave length I was on.. there is alot of stigma associated with one and not the other [enquisitions had lasting effects] when it's really just sematics.. although prayers sometimes have similarities to spells. I'll be back to this thread when I've crossed reference all the latin/middle english words.. hopefully they may yield some answers.

Prayer is more like a petition to God for something to happen. The more faith you have the more you can do, but also with faith you tend to make prayers that mirror Gods will more.

"spells" are using arcane knowledge to further personal 'desires'. In a way you could say it is easier to be selfish with Spells then with prayers.

Tho of course the Chrisitan church has spent aproximatly 7000 years promoting thier style and discrediting the other ways.

Prayer is more like a petition to God for something to happen.
"spells" are using arcane knowledge to further personal 'desires'

other than phraseology / semantics what is the difference? If by

arcane knowledge

you mean the use of candles,herbs and insence many christian and
eastern religions also use them.

The only real difference if you can call it that is the addressee.

From a Catholic perspective, I do not see a comparison. The primary goal of prayer in the Catholic Church is to unite yourself further with God. Yes, there are times petitions are prayed for, but that is not the primary goal of prayer. So personally, I do not see a comparison between prayers and spells or wishes.

Yes most religions use incense candles and herbs, but many of them think they are nopthing more then symbolic and have no power beyond what they normally are, like smelling nice, or providing a pleasing light.

Here is a spell I looked up on the internet to use as an example

Ingredients:

Pink Candle
Rose Petals(fresh or dried)
Rose Incense
Small piece of Rose Quartz

Light your incense and candle. Place the rose petals in a container or vase next to the rose quartz. Meditating on the candle flame, picture yourself happy and ready to receive love into your life. Breathe the scent of the incense and flowers - remember the aroma. Then, take the rose quartz in your "power hand" (the one you write with, your dominant hand) and "push" these good feelings and sensations into the stone. Carry the quartz with you to maintain the spell - the love surrounding you should attract love to you!

WHen I pray, it is a petition to God, in which the medium used is the Holy spirit. ANYONE can do this, unless they have rejected the holy spirit. (which takes a long time to explain in detail)

THe above "spell" is a recipe used by the user, for the user to create desired effect. I really have to ask you then stalkingwolf, how the examples I used above, prayer, and spell. how are they similar beyond "phraseology and semantics"?

And since you ahve no idea what "arcane knowledge" means, that is knowledge that is only know to initiates or people who use "spells"

I might suggest using a dictionary the next time you post, so you know what words mean

Jehosephat.... you know very little..many, many spells are nothing more than words directed to the god....just like your prayer

The prayer that most ppl think of is the one that is being abused. Your not supposed to just ask for stuff. Dear God I want a million dollars and really cool motorcycle. Thats what some people think when they think of prayer. If you ask for something it is supposed to be the strength or courage to be able to do something. You are supposed to pray for others and to God.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Yes most religions use incense candles and herbs, but many of them think they are nopthing more then symbolic and have no power beyond what they normally are, like smelling nice, or providing a pleasing light.

Here is a spell I looked up on the internet to use as an example

Ingredients:

Pink Candle
Rose Petals(fresh or dried)
Rose Incense
Small piece of Rose Quartz

Light your incense and candle. Place the rose petals in a container or vase next to the rose quartz. Meditating on the candle flame, picture yourself happy and ready to receive love into your life. Breathe the scent of the incense and flowers - remember the aroma. Then, take the rose quartz in your "power hand" (the one you write with, your dominant hand) and "push" these good feelings and sensations into the stone. Carry the quartz with you to maintain the spell - the love surrounding you should attract love to you!

WHen I pray, it is a petition to God, in which the medium used is the Holy spirit. ANYONE can do this, unless they have rejected the holy spirit. (which takes a long time to explain in detail)

THe above "spell" is a recipe used by the user, for the user to create desired effect. I really have to ask you then stalkingwolf, how the examples I used above, prayer, and spell. how are they similar beyond "phraseology and semantics"?

And since you ahve no idea what "arcane knowledge" means, that is knowledge that is only know to initiates or people who use "spells"

I might suggest using a dictionary the next time you post, so you know what words mean

You actually selected a rather biased "spell" to prove your point that spells are selfish. It has been my experience that most spells are not cast on the behalf of the user, but rather for the benefit of others.

A spell of protection is most often cast to protect another.
So while you have been able to find AN example of a selfish prayer, it is not the norm.

And since you ahve no idea what "arcane knowledge" means, that is knowledge that is only know to initiates or people who use "spells"

from your definition then you must be one of the spell casters, as only those
who use them or are initiated into the knowledge know them.

as a side note and at a guess i would venture to say I have a far greater
understanding of both arcane and knowledge than you will ever aspire to.

the funny thing about this topic is that praying came first from Catholosim, and they took it from the spells pagans used in an attempt to abolish paganism. infact the Catholics took many things from paganism and incorprated it into their faith.

Originally posted by moonbeam13
the funny thing about this topic is that praying came first from Catholosim, and they took it from the spells pagans used in an attempt to abolish paganism. infact the Catholics took many things from paganism and incorprated it into their faith.

Are you trying to say that there is no prayer in the Old Testament? I think the rest of your statement is a tad misguided too.

[edit on 4/1/2005 by Relentless]