Does God Judge a Nation for it's Leaders or It's People?

a reply to: ketsuko

So basically the biggest plan ever conceived by the ultimate intelligence out there was to sacrifice himself, to himself, to save us from himself, so that only through himself, we may live for himself.


Forgive me if I'm not feeling the deep spiritual connection I should probably be feeling right now according to those who do.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

He allowed the enslavement of the Hebrew people in Babylon.

I think this part speaks to what I wrote on page one:

Oppression is, contrary to popular belief, a shared responsibility between the oppressed and the oppressor. God wants us to be free.

To allow tyranny when Christians have a duty to oppose and even fight tyranny is to disobey the will of God directly. The reward for chosing to live under the yoke of tyranny is the suffering that will accompany that choice.

Life isn't something that just happens to us. We are here in this world acting upon it and making changes in ourselves and in others in perpetuity. The enlavement of any people is a number of things. But all add up to a concession of responsibility in the end. The oppressed and oppressor is a mutual relationship. We all often chose chains, knowing their weight, as the last act of our freedom.

It's a big middle finger to God. Both are unjust conditions for human beings in that relationship. The oppressor will surely go to hell but the problem is that too many things have to go wrong for a people to allow themselves to be enslaved. They are, after all, one half of that relationship they get to experience hell directly and immediately.

The reason I think oppression at these scales keeps happening is that we have continually interpreted what God allows vs what God enforces. God allows our slavery because we chose it. We give in to all the sins that collectively lead to a rotten society. God enforces his will, however. Those two look very different for the reasons mentioned above.

a reply to: 19Bones79

He also provided us with the ultimate example of how we should be, and we killed Him for it. No matter how hard we try, none of us can live that life perfectly, not in this world.

We gave that up when we chose to go our own way over His.

a reply to: projectvxn

Wow, how do you arrive at all that, did you read the same bible

Jesus Himself lived under Herod a tyrant
He also said to turn the other cheek
Love your enemies


But you want Christians to fight?
Any biblical support for your argument?

originally posted by: BrokenCircles

originally posted by: The2Billies

Atheists: There is no God, so do whatever you need to in order to gain power, be successful, get money, obtain personal gratification. There are no consequences so you are free to do whatever you must to others in order to obtain personal power, success, money and gratification. Because this is all there is.

So do you think that not believing in God, automatically makes you a greedy power-hungry asshole?

You may find this hard to believe, but it's actually possible for someone to not believe in God, while still being an all-around good person.

You should see some of those in the church and leadership who are unbelievably greedy, power hungry bent on money and success, exploiting the poor
I know many non believers I rate as better people over fellow Christians

Not all Christians believe what was written above about the “doing what ever is needed” atheist attitude

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: BrokenCircles

originally posted by: The2Billies

Atheists: There is no God, so do whatever you need to in order to gain power, be successful, get money, obtain personal gratification. There are no consequences so you are free to do whatever you must to others in order to obtain personal power, success, money and gratification. Because this is all there is.

So do you think that not believing in God, automatically makes you a greedy power-hungry asshole?

You may find this hard to believe, but it's actually possible for someone to not believe in God, while still being an all-around good person.

You should see some of those in the church and leadership who are unbelievably greedy, power hungry bent on money and success, exploiting the poor
I know many non believers I rate as better people over fellow Christians

Not all Christians believe what was written above about the “doing what ever is needed” atheist attitude

Again, it's not about doing good stuff; it's about being forgiven when you screw up.

You can do good things, but the standard you'll be judged against is perfection. If you accept God, accept Christ, then the recognition stands that you are sincerely trying to walk God's way; thus you have forgiveness when you screw up. You may be reconciled to God the Father in your error.

Without that reconciliation with God the Father, then you must prove that you can indeed walk the walk alone and be perfect.

The other side of the equation is if you listen to yourself going on and on about how much good works people who aren't Christian do, you start to sound like they are buying themselves into Heaven. Like they are setting up such a store of good works that they can outweigh a leger of sins.

And if that's the case then Luke 23:39-43 is puzzling indeed:

One of the criminals who were hanged there was [a]hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other responded, and rebuking him, said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our crimes; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Because here you have a thief who freely admits that he and the other man crucified with Christ deserve what they are getting. They are criminals, but he rebukes the first thief telling him to show some fear of God, and asks Jesus to remember him. All he does is show faith, and Jesus answers indicating that he is saved.

a reply to: Raggedyman

First of all, calm down. I'm having a philosophical discussion and am not admonishing Christians to fight anything or anyone. But yes, there is a command by God to stand in opposition to and deliver others from the yoke of tyranny.

The command of God to Christians is to follow his commandments. While the Bible in Romans admonishes us to respect the civil authority, the book of Acts and many others shows us many instances of disobedience by Christians of government mandates that violated God's commandments.

carm.org...

Resistance to tyranny really does seem to be obedience to God.

originally posted by: 19Bones79
a reply to: The2Billies

Let me ask you this.

What is your opinion of someone who believes in doing good for goodness sake and not expecting any reward for it in a supposed afterlife?


Is that not more sincere?

Good is relative with no foundation.

There is no universally agreed upon "goodness"

But I suppose one could feel their goodness is better than another's goodness.

But without God even answering this question or commenting on this question is moot.

a reply to: okrian

I gotta admit, that some comedy gold right there.

a reply to: projectvxn

To allow tyranny when Christians have a duty to oppose and even fight tyranny is to disobey the will of God directly.

Jesus didn't fight tyranny. He told slaves to obey their master. St Paul said Christians must obey and submit to their governments, because God put them there, and the Romans were pretty, pretty tyrannical.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

You'll get no argument out of me for that. But it isn't as cut and dry as you might imagine. Jesus was a passive resister but even he turned over tables in the temple in a rage for the depravity on display. He even admonishes his disciples to sell their cloaks and arm themselves.

That doesn't mean that there is no duty to resist tyranny in the Bible.

I made my case for that three posts up.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

It also says that wives are to submit to their husbands, but husbands are to be as Christ to their wives.

In other words, if He were advising the master, how ought the master to behave toward the slave or servant?

The other thing to understand is that the Roman institution of slavery while being slavery and even the Biblical notion of it was in cases different than the chattel slavery we are taught about here in the modern West. Yes, there was chattel slavery in Rome, but there was also a different kind. There were plenty of cases of non-Romans who were well educated selling themselves into wealthy Roman families in the hope they would be manumitted or buy themselves out of slavery through their service. The idea was to both gain Roman citizenship through the practice and the patronage of the wealthy Roman family they served as springboard into bettering their station and the stations of their descendants.

Additionally, slavery in the Bible was designed to be more of an indenture system to pay off debts with a 7-year Jubilee intended to free all slaves. This system broke down, and it was likely one of the things Jesus was intended to address through his ministry.

a reply to: projectvxn

That doesn't mean that there is no duty to resist tyranny in the Bible.

Jesus told his disciples to arm themselves against theft. He also told them to give Caesar what is Caesar's.

That doesn't mean that there is no duty to resist tyranny in the Bible.

I don't disagree that Christ taught that Christians should be altruist, abide with the sojourner, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, house the homeless and minister to the weak and sick, whether or not they cosmically chose their enslavement. (karma). But I don't think Christ would have approved of, for example, the US Vietnamese war, supposedly fought to liberate Vietnam from tyrannical Communist rule.

Jesus taught that this world, "Satan's world", is temporary, and not the end goal. There are many mansions in Heaven, however, what you bind on earth, right now, you bind in heaven. So, keep up the good work and fight the good fight!

a reply to: Sookiechacha

I think part of the problem is epistemic.

The lack of knowledge of the world during the age of the Roman Empire and during Jesus' time is an issue. Back then rulers were considered to be divinely ordained to rule. This is not an uncommon interpretation of the ruling class from the ancient world.

In much the same way that I, as a soldier(former now), am duty bound to disobey criminal orders, I believe God expects the same from us.

a reply to: ketsuko

It also says that wives are to submit to their husbands, but husbands are to be as Christ to their wives.

That's not to say that their can't be tyranny in a marital relationship.

In other words, if He were advising the master, how ought the master to behave toward the slave or servant?

It's true, Jesus taught love, and encouraged people to love one another as they would love themselves.

The other thing to understand is that the Roman institution of slavery while being slavery and even the Biblical notion of it was in cases different than the chattel slavery we are taught about here in the modern West.

Romans procured their slaves from nations that they captured, as did the Hebrews, in their day. During the times of Jesus, the Jews were under Roman Rule. I don't recall Jesus ever calling to overthrow the tyrannical Roman government. Although, many Jewish leader did advocate such things. Ergo, the Siege of Jerusalem in 70AD.

a reply to: projectvxn

In much the same way that I, as a soldier(former now), am duty bound to disobey criminal orders, I believe God expects the same from us.

Some people have a more military calling. Others are called to foreign lands as missionaries. Others are called to endure and abide closer to home, with family, neighbors and collogues. Maybe, run for office.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

I would never dare to venture into politics. Corruption seems to be endemic for the profession. An argument I would levy against St. John and even God with regard to obedience to the government.

I think government should always be viewed with suspicion and it's corruption assumed. No free people could afford to do otherwise.

a reply to: projectvxn

LOL

I wasn't suggesting that YOU should run for office. I meant the people called to stay closer to home, to care for family, commune with neighbors, encourage commerce and local businesses, AND, perhaps, run for office.

Sure, the system is flawed. Such is the nature of life on Planet Earth.

a reply to: 19Bones79

There's another story that has a lot of themes in common with the biblical story. The god Odin sacrificed himself onto himself. The greatest sacrifices made to him were hung and speared... He did it to himself to try and prevent their version of end times, Ragnarok.

Oral tradition always loses out to a written one, for instance I think Muhammad knew the necessity of unaltered religious documents. Islam hasn't changed whereas asatru (Viking pantheon) seemingly changed with the times, their stories reflect this. That said it's very possible the authors of the very few documents we have related to them may have been influenced by other religions. Artistic liberties?

Forgive me if I'm not feeling the deep spiritual connection I should probably be feeling right now according to those who do.

Religions tend to have things in common. I mean after all everything is borrowed anyways isn't it? It's the connections and similarities that peak my interest. Personally I think some stories and themes that are similar have a basis in much older oral traditions.

Like a game of Chinese whispers where nobody speaks the same language. I'm with you though, it's mostly all gobbledegook to me too. The colour of your cloth doesn't necessarily reflect the kindness in your heart and I personally find the attitude of only through Christ or whoever to be rather authoritative.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Raggedyman
Resistance to tyranny really does seem to be obedience to God.

No Jesus never said to resist tyranny, Jesus commanded each and every follower to go out and love others
Christ could have called an army of angels prior to the cross
Jesus could have organised an army of rebels to overthrow Rome

But He didn’t, Jesus taught His followers to change their own hearts