A thread for seekers who want to explore the Christian path..

Hi ATS,

I've not done a thread like this before, but when I think of it, I wonder why it hasn't crossed my mind to invite questions in this sort of way in the past. I've been a Christian for eighteen years now, and if ever there was a man who went to the absolute limits in asking questions concerning his faith, I believe I could sit with him as an equal. I've witnessed a stack of arguments on ATS concerning things of the faith, but I generally sat to one side, not really wanting to get involved, even though I probably should have participated to some extent.

I started out on my spiritual path as a curious & science-minded youth in the North of England, with absolutely no spiritual path of any sort. Our family was associated with the Anglican church (Church of England) in our village, because my father was a chorister, as was my stepmother - though she had genuine faith, while he was simply an all-round musician with absolutely zero in the way of faith (& a bucket-load of cynicism to go with it). In the Sunday School I was forced to attend, I asked my first serious question - how could Adam & Eve have been the precursors of all the genetic diversity in the world today? I decided there & then that if the first story in the book was tainted, the rest must surely be worthless too (that this inference is a logical fallacy didn't cross my mind at the time). I became an atheist on the spot, which stuck with me for something like seven years thereafter.

In my mid-late teens I began to have unusual experiences of a paranormal/ supernatural sort, and so I became somewhat agnostic, though I still firmly rejected Christianity at the time, believing it to be bigoted & intolerant - I won't get into those events in this OP, but feel free to ask questions if you like. This accompanied a time of severe familial & social upheaval in my life, as I was going off the rails, in with a bad crowd, ingesting illegal substances & engaging in foolish talk/ behaviour - I wound up in the gutter after five years of trying my hardest to get there [/sarc]. I was kicked out of my former home, I wound up travelling the country from place to place, in between begging & accessing welfare, from shelters to the streets, in a tailspin from which at any moment I could have met my end, and that in any number of ways. Indeed I had a knife held to my throat in a London hostel, an incident which saw an associate of mine getting nastily slashed across the face, a frightening experience as the guy who did it was a huge, powerful bloke, and we knew him to be a psychopath (one of many living there at the time, in one of the roughest London boroughs). I was spending every day locked in my room, trying to get wasted, trying to escape from the constant storm of depression, the sense of failure, the various & ongoing dark paranormal experiences, accompanied by perpetual anxiety & paranoia.

In the midst of these experiences, I had prayed aloud in desperation, to a God I wasn't sure existed, whom I barely dared hope to believe in, tentatively & instinctively committing my life to Him if indeed He existed & would accept me. My prayer was answered the very next day in a clear & unequivocal manner, and suddenly there was a spark of hope, which drew me onwards (through many more chaotic experiences) until suddenly, I found myself free, or as close to free as I'd ever felt before. I had decided to spend some time with a Christian church who did outreach with the homeless in London, and I went up to the boarding house they had outside of London. I was out in the fresh air, in fields & orchards, working on their farm - reading scripture, learning the guitar, sharing life with other believers, receiving prayer ministry at their lively worship services, listening to edifying ministry - it was incredible, and it turned my life around. I was suddenly on some new sort of adventure, perceiving visions & deeply meaningful dreams (where previously there had been only nightmares). Indeed it was the onset of often glorious supernatural experiences, destroying the darkness that had consumed me prior to this new season in my life. While getting to grips with my newfound faith, I met my present wife - we shared our faith (but not much else, at the time) - thankfully this was enough to see us through the early years. Sadly, for a time I then backslid into my old ways, on & off - despite being a heartfelt & fully committed Christian at my core. Ultimately, God brought me to my senses, and in time our marriage developed into a solid & dependable force of unity & mutual love, by which we raised our two sons who are now both teenagers, themselves happy & engaged on good paths.

Presently I find myself missing our regular church engagement greatly, missing the fellowship - the simple human contact & shared prayer encounters - it's devastating that this pandemic has reached into even the most inmost, precious aspects of our faith, alongside the various ways it's rampaging through the fabric of our world, our society & our culture.. I have a deep anger against those whose (possibly deliberate) bad counsel is seemingly hell-bent on making the pandemic situation much, much worse than it should have been - though it's hard to know who to point the finger at, seeing as I do believe that a) There is a real virus, though less prevalent & deadly than is claimed in the mainstream media and b) Our governments are largely scrambling to genuinely fight against it..

In part as a means of hopefully bringing some comfort to those of you who have queries regarding faith, hope, prayer, the Christian life in general, or any aspect of it in particular, I'd like to offer to respond to everyone based on what I've learned in my own questioning journey of faith, as it has formed through fire & flood over the past eighteen years. I have always remained deeply interested in science & the entire spectrum of spiritual, supernatural, paranormal & plain weird events, beliefs & experiences, as a long-term member of ATS, and I've questioned just about everything it's possible to question when it comes to uncertainty over the tenets of my belief system. My doubts & fears have tested me, severely at times. Despite this, God has always brought me through, and thankfully I find now that I'm able to agree with the age-old refrain, "It is well with my soul". I'm at peace, despite frustrations at the disruption afflicting our world at this time. I hope that perhaps, in the midst of the storm, I can help you to find peace also.

Ask away, any serious questions welcomed, God bless you all.


FITO.

If the rest of Genesis is a chronological sequence of events, why would someone believe the story of Eden is a re-telling of Day 6?

If you were to read the book chronologically, it would seem man was created on day 6, then after day 7, God created a garden and Adam and Eve, the father and mother of God's chosen people, to tend to the garden.

And it would also make more sense when you consider Cain would have nobody to lead in the land of Nod, nor a wife to bear him a son, unless Adam and Eve had hundreds of children, who were all sentenced to wander through the land of Nod...

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
So you a follower of christ or paul?
And do you believe the two christianitys presented are equaly good?

Hi FlyInTheOintment,

I consider myself a Gnostic Christian, to me the bible is clearly an esoteric teaching, thinly veiled in symbolism and allegory.

Many of the eastern orthadox branches of Christianity would agree with this premise, while the west seems lost in outward appearance and literal interpretation.

The Jesus prayer is a personal favourite, and while I don't do it unceasingly, I do pray a lot.

In this, Jesus clearly points the way.

The Jesus Prayer,[a] also known as The Prayer, is a short formulaic prayer esteemed and advocated especially within the Eastern churches: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."[3] 

The prayer has been widely taught and discussed throughout the history of the Orthodox Church. The ancient and original form did not include the words "a sinner", which were added later.[4][5] 

It is often repeated continually as a part of personal ascetic practice, its use being an integral part of the eremitic tradition of prayer known as hesychasm.[c] The prayer is particularly esteemed by the spiritual fathers of this tradition (see Philokalia) as a method of cleaning and opening up the mind and after this the heart (kardia) and bringing about firstly the Prayer of the Mind or more correctly the Noetic Prayer (Νοερά Προσευχή) and after this the Prayer of the Heart (Καρδιακή Προσευχή).

The Prayer of the Heart is considered to be the Unceasing Prayer that the Apostle Paul advocates in the New Testament.[d] Theophan the Recluse regarded the Jesus Prayer stronger than all other prayers by virtue of the power of the Holy Name of Jesus.[4]

en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus Prayer - Breathing Exercises

www.orthodoxprayer.org...



❤✝️🌞

originally posted by: donpanini
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
So you a follower of christ or paul?
And do you believe the two christianitys presented are equaly good?

No one follows Paul. Paul followed Yeshua after meeting him on the road. It was an eye opening experience. The Disciples were all human, and none were without sin.

There is a way that seems right to mankind, but in the end, it leads to death.

Works without a personal relationship with God leads to death Works wont work, because the wages of sin is death. All our good works are as a filthy rag unto the Lord

a reply to: visitedbythem

“One must not always think so much about what one should do, but rather what one should be. Our works do not ennoble us; but we must ennoble our works.”

― Meister Eckhart

If you're seeking Jesus, turn away now.

originally posted by: donpanini
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
So you a follower of christ or paul?
And do you believe the two christianitys presented are equaly good?

What did Paul say that conflicted with Jesus?

Is God/Christ powerless to stop the millions of deaths by murders and diseases orchestrated by Satan?

Or, could God/Christ terminate Satan, along with the suffering brought, but have chosen not to?

If either is correct, Christianity's foundational belief about God is in error.

a reply to: carewemust

Who is to say there is not such a plan?

When the bible says there is?

And while no man knows the day, the signs are there for all to see.

originally posted by: KansasGirl


What did Paul say that conflicted with Jesus?

Jesus
Mathew 7: 1-2
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Paul
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Slightly diferent no? All the time i read paul he looks someone trying to become a nice little chosen one with all is rules (or teachings 2 Thessalonians 2:15) and things to do, putting himself in a place of power (1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.) putting himself has a mediator of sorts he tells people to do what he did.
And what i read in Jesus is a message of love and of letting the spirit work inside ( John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.). (Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.) Follow me, not imitate me, once again not the same.
So imitate or follow? Judge or don't judge?

a reply to: donpanini

Context. We are all sinners but we cannot accept completely immoral behavior in the church by people claiming to be a brother or sister otherwise the rot of sin will spread. Should you not remove someone claiming to be a brother or sister who is promoting that which opposes Christ? Do you not disassociate from people who do wicked things claiming it is in the name of Christ?



It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud!

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are.

a reply to: donpanini

Context is king don, you don’t seem to follow the narrative
Jesus spoke pre Christ covenant, Paul post covenant
Jesus and Paul both taught sacrificial love, Paul just taught Christians to have boundaries and set those boundaries out
Common sense, a brain demands boundaries

originally posted by: carewemust
Is God/Christ powerless to stop the millions of deaths by murders and diseases orchestrated by Satan?

Or, could God/Christ terminate Satan, along with the suffering brought, but have chosen not to?

If either is correct, Christianity's foundational belief about God is in error.

And deny freewill?
Wouldn’t forcing people to comply be unloving, dictatorial, oppressive
You want freedom and then be controlled

In the OT God destroyed wicked nations and people complain God is a genocidal maniac, now God doesn’t destroy wicked nations and people complain God is powerless

God promised to bring justice, when all humanity cry out for it

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

You have had what you believe was an epiphany. It broke the self-destructive cycle into which your life had fallen. This you attribute to God’s direct intervention, and in gratitude to Him (as well as, perhaps, out of fear of backsliding) you have embraced Christ in a very personal way.

Having overcome your early struggles, you believe that you have travelled far enough on your own spiritual journey to be able to support others on theirs. You invite questions from ATSers ‘who want to follow the Christian path’.

But are you really a Christian? That question, I fear, is not for you to answer, however strong your personal convictions are. Christianity is a community of believers, not just an assumed personal relationship with a deity. Do you agree with this?

That is my first question.

Here are the rest.

• Was Jesus God, was he a man, was he both, or was he neither?
  
• Is baptism essential for salvation?
  
• What are your views on the Apostolic Succession?
  
• Is God omniscient, or does free will exist?
  
• What, if anything, happens at the Eucharist?
  
• To be saved, must one first atone for one’s sins, or at least try to?

Thank you for your attention. I look forward to reading your answers.

originally posted by: carewemust
Is God/Christ powerless to stop the millions of deaths by murders and diseases orchestrated by Satan?

Or, could God/Christ terminate Satan, along with the suffering brought, but have chosen not to?

If either is correct, Christianity's foundational belief about God is in error.

God created angels. Some angels fell. Satan and 1/3 of them. Also the watchers who gave up their first estate, took on solid form and reeked havoc on the earth. They did not know adversity. They had no idea what it would be like to really be separated from God. They were clueless.

We on the other hand choose God. We have free will to choose God and his kingdom or remain separated from God. This construct we live in, we have been given self rule. As you can see, how is that going for us?

You are fortunate. You have a general knowledge of history and the horrors that man has inflicted upon others. You will get to see exactly how life without God's presence is like and choose to either follow this kind of misery in this world or choose to be with God in haven.

The choice is completely up to you. But if you had grown up in a perfect bubble, unaware of even the possibility of such horror on a grand scale, you may think this kind of life of flesh and all the misery that comes with it is a good thing.

www.feedthehunger.org...

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: donpanini

Context. We are all sinners but we cannot accept completely immoral behavior in the church by people claiming to be a brother or sister otherwise the rot of sin will spread.

So you must be a saint before conversion? Or how long do you have for transformation?

originally posted by: infolurker Should you not remove someone claiming to be a brother or sister who is promoting that which opposes Christ?

Why do you care? Is God's power not enough? Or are we to outcast our children for their mistakes? Or are we not ALL brothers and sisters? Did God give up on you? Why should you give up on your brother?

originally posted by: infolurker Do you not disassociate from people who do wicked things claiming it is in the name of Christ?

I once upon a time was a christian, not anymore, but even then i would not. I would take my time to listen to what people had to say, talked to them, advised them, and told them not the fear of sin, but what at the time i believed to be true that someone once loved us so much that he was willing to die. And not only that he was willing to do so, but only so that we could know what that love that he felt was. Regardless of errors mistakes or even ourselves, it does not matter. What that person did was enough to quench the rage of an angry father (God himself) that we do not know, and make us whole, and loved, many times for the first time in someones lives. And prayed with them not teaching how to speak but just tell them, tell him how you trully feel no filter, don't care about proper language sometimes even without a single word. Some of those people that everyone disassociated from, to this day are people that have in fact stayed believers some of them even became people respected and who thank me for what i have done for them (in my opinion nothing) And those that had no intention on changing got fed up and left. The message itself bothered them too much. How am i to give a message to someone that doesn't listen if i can't talk to them? They are the ones that need it the most no?

originally posted by: infolurker
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud!

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are.

Don't associate, and yet Jesus allowed Judas to eat with him? A murderer with greed that called himself not only a believer but a disciple.

Mathew 13 24-30 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
If you're seeking Jesus, turn away now.

The Lord Jesus found me, a sinner, and I have repented.

How can a mind be so ignorant and foolish to say the words you said there is beyond belief.

a reply to: rounda

I have struggled with Genesis most of all - it was my first reason to deny the faith, and even now, being well experienced in general matters of doctrine & practice, it is one of the two Biblical books that still baffle me oftentimes (the other one being the Revelation of St John, obviously). To have a stab at it now, I'd say my thoughts tend towards the understanding of Genesis as divine allegory woven with ancestral details in a manner which results in an account having various exterior & interior facets of meaning, all of which are useful for teaching in the hands of a skillful theologian, a gifted minister or even a darn good psychologist (disclaimer: of which I am none!) Sometimes a phrase or passage jumps out at you, but very important to bear in mind is that we are reading a translation, and most of the esoteric meaning is literally lost in translation.

That said, the dawn of sentience seems implied by the story of the tree of knowledge of good & evil - prior to sentience we were in a state of innocence, as is the case with the animals, which have not transgressed according to the primal call of the serpent. I believe in that serpent, a powerful angelic being which was supposed to have been the original guardian of humanity - it rebelled, and lost its ability to ascend into the Heavens, preferring to hide its presence on the Earth (a creature hidden underfoot, on the Earth which is lower than its previous domain...hence a serpent 'striking [the] heel' of Man). It would seemingly have been impossible to resist that power, in light of early man's state of relative innocence, in which trust would have been the natural, default condition when interacting with a plainly superior being (the only similar experience to that point would have been that of face to face interaction with God, who often 'walked in the garden, in the cool of the afternoon'..)

I have wondered whether the account of Adam & Eve more specifically details the inception of the original priestly & royal lineage presaging Israel, a part of which would ultimately become the Royal House of David, into which Jesus would be born, thus tying in with prophetic validity as the promised Messiah.. The ancient couple would have been those destined to be the principle ancestors who carried the seed of the Jewish nation within them, specifically anointed for that purpose, those with whom God walked & spoke face to face, as friend with friend, appearing in this way to confirm them as the direct forebears of those who would ultimately prepare the world for His living incarnation as Christ, the Son of Man, accounting for the later promise to Abraham, through whom "all the nations will be blessed.."

There is no contradiction regarding Cain's banishment, because other humans are already presumed to exist, Adam & Eve being simply the two humans anointed as the initiatory forebears of the House of Israel, according to the Royal Priesthood of Melchizedek, anointed by God directly as children of eternity. I have to assume that the actual 'Fall' associated with them, having an effect over all humanity, was some sort of quasi-temporal event occurring only after they had been anointed, in which the creature already fallen due to prior rebellion sought to undermine the purposes of God, tricking the rulers of Israel-to-be into a compact in which their original & sovereign royal authority over humanity was held over in bondage to the ancient dragon, seemingly from the dawn of sentience in perpetuity. That deceit could only hold until such a time as a 'deeper magic' (as CS Lewis put it), would undo the dark workings of the Satanic power, when the Lord Himself would appear to frustrate the plans of the enemy, making redemption possible, 'crushing [its] head' under his heel..

a reply to: primalfractal

Thanks Primal, that was an awesome post with great resources. I consider myself to enjoy a semi-mystic expression of the faith (though I'm in a Western charismatic church), I'm deeply thankful for the spiritual encounters I am privileged to experience. It's amazing to learn of that short Eastern Orthodox 'Jesus prayer', I absolutely will be adopting it in light of its historical & eternal value, partly for the very particular reason that when I've had my 'dark night of the soul' experiences (and there have been several over the years) - my final position, when everything else has fallen, is to pray in an almost identical manner: "Lord Jesus, forgive me, thank you for your grace" or words to that effect. I think ultimately there are mysteries that are beyond us, but holding Christ in the highest possible esteem & acknowledging our condition in humility, expressing gratitude for the sheer magnitude of His glorious & loving presence with us, is a good place to start getting our house in order. "Thank you Lord" is the abbreviated version, and fits absolutely everywhere in our human lives!