More proof Big Guns are needed on the border

"A year ago today, federal officials kicked off a multimillion-dollar campaign to gain "operational control" of Arizona's border and dramatically decrease the number of migrants crossing, and dying, in the desert.
Border Patrol Chief Gus de la Vina said the extra money and manpower gave the government "an excellent shot" at closing down the border completely.

Hundreds of sensors were buried underground. Thousands of Mexicans were flown deep into Mexico at U.S. expense. Two unmanned aerial vehicles scanned the desert.

And migrants are still crossing and dying in record numbers.

Supporters of the Arizona Border Control Initiative, including U.S. Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., and former Undersecretary for the Department of Homeland Security Asa Hutchinson, who helped design the effort, point to an increase in the number of illegal immigrants apprehended in Tucson sector in fiscal year 2004 as a measure of the program's success.

An analysis by the Tucson Citizen shows that nearly half a million people were apprehended in the year that ended Sept. 30, 2004 - 41 percent more than the previous year.

But the Border Control Initiative appears to have had little to do with the increase. Nearly as many more illegal immigrants were caught in the six months before the initiative as in the six months after."

snip

The initiative included 260 more agents, 28 Humvees and two new helicopters, as well as a pilot drone program and $1 million in underground sensors. The initial six months was budgeted to cost $10 million, but eventually cost $28 million, $13 million of which went to voluntary repatriation flights to Mexico during the summer.

www.tucsoncitizen.com...

Here we go again, "passive" measures to stop these illegals do not work. It is time for stronger measures. Trip wires to claymores, anti-personell mines, 50 cal mini-guns, heck lions tigers and bears even.........

I always find the right wing viewpoint on immigration to be hilarious.

Immigrants are bad, although you're the children of immigrants, illegal ones at that. With the exception of the native americans.

Countries full! Go home!

Fuzzy logic.

Can't se his post.....but by saying "more" proof....implies you posted proof before, which is wrong! Are you Native American dr and no, I won't capitalize it? If not....your family immigrated here from elsewhere

Originally posted by LadyV
Can't se his post.....but by saying "more" proof....implies you posted proof before, which is wrong!

Are you Native American dr and no, I won't capitalize it? If not....your family immigrated here from elsewhere

How is it you "ignore" the words but are compelled to answer.

ALL inhabitants of North or South America are immagrants based on some timeline. The issue is "Illegal"...............ILLEGAL missy.

Originally posted by Nerdling

I always find the right wing viewpoint on immigration to be hilarious.

Immigrants are bad, although you're the children of immigrants, illegal ones at that. With the exception of the native americans.

Hummm...fuzzy logic?

And yours? Open the floodgates? Let the crowded trucks roll on in? Meet them with fruit baskets at the border?

Seems clear. Then, it worked. Now it doesn't.

What's fuzzy?

Originally posted by Partyof1

Originally posted by Nerdling

I always find the right wing viewpoint on immigration to be hilarious.

Immigrants are bad, although you're the children of immigrants, illegal ones at that. With the exception of the native americans.

Hummm...fuzzy logic?

And yours? Open the floodgates? Let the crowded trucks roll on in? Meet them with fruit baskets at the border?

Seems clear. Then, it worked. Now it doesn't.

What's fuzzy?

I agree, and I'm all for the Native Indians!

I wish the topic of boarder security would be moved from a hypothetical academic discussion to the realm of real world change. Mexicans crossing the boarder to work in the US has nothing to do with Native Americans, even they are immigrants, they came over on the land bridge, or so the scientists say. Whether or not my great great grandad was an "immigrant" is beside the fact that I live here now and am affected by issues that effect this country. The problem with the mexican boarder isn't that greedy whites want to keep the downtrodden mexicans out of our money, it's that we have people literally pouring into our country. They apply for welfare and food stamps, they attend our already underfunded public schools, and they even join our military. Would you rather we just annexed mexico and did away with the boarder? You must like paying outrageous taxes more than I my friend. Not to mention the fact that the quality of life in the boarder areas is worse than south central LA. I know a few people who've had their house broken into by illegals, their watch dogs poisoned, and I've even heard of illegals squating in people's yards, living in tents and the like. No other country in the world lets their neighboring country dump all their undesirables on them. You don't honestly think that people running across the boarder are good, moral, upstanding christian people do you? A good portion of the mexicans that sneak over here are the same as the Americans who feel a need to sneak over there. Imagine if New York or LA decided to start moving all their housing projects and ghettos to your nice suburban town The reason the boarder is still open is due to middle class guilt, people live such pampered easy lives these days, people need to wake the hell up and look ten years into the future and imagine what south cali and texas will look like if we keep this up. Our nation is already in debt, we don't need to be adopting millions of people who bring nothing except themselves into this country. Plus, thousands of people immigrate here every year. When my great grandfather moved here from germany, or the other from Ireland, they both went through Ellis Island, had their papers, and became full American Citizens. Yes, you can move to America, but we have rules on how it's done. I'm going to end this post before I get really heated

Well you're the original Illegal immigrants so it's a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

There's nothing wrong with immigration, people tend to forget the mexicans are the ones doing menial labour and the jobs that are undesirable to most Americans.

Originally posted by Nerdling
Well you're the original Illegal immigrants so it's a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

There's nothing wrong with immigration, people tend to forget the mexicans are the ones doing menial labour and the jobs that are undesirable to most Americans.

Public education is so bad these days. Please how are "we" the original illegals?

No there is nothing wrong with immigration I do have a problem with "Illegals",

Originally posted by Nerdling
Well you're the original Illegal immigrants so it's a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

There's nothing wrong with immigration, people tend to forget the mexicans are the ones doing menial labour and the jobs that are undesirable to most Americans.

First off, like I said my ancestors immigrated here legally, and went through quite some trouble to do so. Secondly, you can't be an illegal immigrant to a country that hasn't been created yet. Thirdly, think back to history class, what happened to the native americans? That right there should be enough for you to change your mind

And I'm sorry, but the comment about the menial labor shows an inability to see things from another angle. I'm a certified welder, I have trouble getting work because many of the jobs I and many people I know would've gotten have gone to mexicans. The whole reason the jobs are undesireable these days is because they're only going to pay you the same amount they pay the mexicans. I can get a job welding where I'd be the only english speaking person there, but I'd only get paid about 7 or 8 an hour. Where as if there were employer regulations, and stricter laws about hiring illegals one could make twice as much. Many of these mexican laborers are uncertified and unlicensed too, that may not mean much to you but to me it means that nice new dorm your college built is not only un-inspected but many of the crittical weldmeants could be grossly inadequate and hardly capable of withstanding the structural loads neccesarry for the engineer's calculations to even work. Becoming certified in a given trade is a lot harder than sticking two peices of metal together, you have to know metalurgy, chemistry, and no small amount of talent to pass those tests. I doubt many of you could make a weldment able to perfectly with stand 70,000 pounds per square inch of tensile stress. A team of 5 mexican illegals costs an employer as much as a real american certified laborer, not to mention that with real americans you have to follow labor laws including overtime payment, disablities and accident liability. Maybe your cushy cubicle job isn't in danger but many of us who have to take a face full of fire and molten steel just to make a buck are watching the food vanish from our tables. Maybe you don't WANT to be a welder or a carpenter, but some of us NEED to be one, and rampant un-checked illegal immigration is making that quite hard these days.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
And I'm sorry, but the comment about the menial labor shows an inability to see things from another angle. I'm a certified welder, I have trouble getting work because many of the jobs I and many people I know would've gotten have gone to mexicans. The whole reason the jobs are undesireable these days is because they're only going to pay you the same amount they pay the mexicans. I can get a job welding where I'd be the only english speaking person there, but I'd only get paid about 7 or 8 an hour. Where as if there were employer regulations, and stricter laws about hiring illegals one could make twice as much. Many of these mexican laborers are uncertified and unlicensed too, that may not mean much to you but to me it means that nice new dorm your college built is not only un-inspected but many of the crittical weldmeants could be grossly inadequate and hardly capable of withstanding the structural loads neccesarry for the engineer's calculations to even work. Becoming certified in a given trade is a lot harder than sticking two peices of metal together, you have to know metalurgy, chemistry, and no small amount of talent to pass those tests. I doubt many of you could make a weldment able to perfectly with stand 70,000 pounds per square inch of tensile stress. A team of 5 mexican illegals costs an employer as much as a real american certified laborer, not to mention that with real americans you have to follow labor laws including overtime payment, disablities and accident liability. Maybe your cushy cubicle job isn't in danger but many of us who have to take a face full of fire and molten steel just to make a buck are watching the food vanish from our tables. Maybe you don't WANT to be a welder or a carpenter, but some of us NEED to be one, and rampant un-checked illegal immigration is making that quite hard these days.

Recently an fairly large HVAC company went out of busness becuase the chilled water piping was so poorly welded on several jobs. When ask for welder certifications the 'welders" disappeared back to mexico............

Thousands of people lost their jobs, I know, I ask for the welder certificates since I was the commissioning agent.

The welder certificates shown were "fakes'............

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Here we go again, "passive" measures to stop these illegals do not work. It is time for stronger measures. Trip wires to claymores, anti-personell mines, 50 cal mini-guns, heck lions tigers and bears even.........

Does this thread qualify for this?
Dark Days. (The black band on ATS)

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Here we go again, "passive" measures to stop these illegals do not work. It is time for stronger measures. Trip wires to claymores, anti-personell mines, 50 cal mini-guns, heck lions tigers and bears even.........

Does this thread qualify for this?
Dark Days. (The black band on ATS)

Only if you make it do so there ACE. Wev'e been having a nice discussion up til now. Wish to add anything or just out to get all opposing views out of your way?

Care to add something?

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by Shadowflux
And I'm sorry, but the comment about the menial labor shows an inability to see things from another angle. I'm a certified welder, I have trouble getting work because many of the jobs I and many people I know would've gotten have gone to mexicans. The whole reason the jobs are undesireable these days is because they're only going to pay you the same amount they pay the mexicans. I can get a job welding where I'd be the only english speaking person there, but I'd only get paid about 7 or 8 an hour. Where as if there were employer regulations, and stricter laws about hiring illegals one could make twice as much. Many of these mexican laborers are uncertified and unlicensed too, that may not mean much to you but to me it means that nice new dorm your college built is not only un-inspected but many of the crittical weldmeants could be grossly inadequate and hardly capable of withstanding the structural loads neccesarry for the engineer's calculations to even work. Becoming certified in a given trade is a lot harder than sticking two peices of metal together, you have to know metalurgy, chemistry, and no small amount of talent to pass those tests. I doubt many of you could make a weldment able to perfectly with stand 70,000 pounds per square inch of tensile stress. A team of 5 mexican illegals costs an employer as much as a real american certified laborer, not to mention that with real americans you have to follow labor laws including overtime payment, disablities and accident liability. Maybe your cushy cubicle job isn't in danger but many of us who have to take a face full of fire and molten steel just to make a buck are watching the food vanish from our tables. Maybe you don't WANT to be a welder or a carpenter, but some of us NEED to be one, and rampant un-checked illegal immigration is making that quite hard these days.

Recently an fairly large HVAC company went out of busness becuase the chilled water piping was so poorly welded on several jobs. When ask for welder certifications the 'welders" disappeared back to mexico............

Thousands of people lost their jobs, I know, I ask for the welder certificates since I was the commissioning agent.

The welder certificates shown were "fakes'............

That's not the only time this happened. Around here they just finished a multi million dollar nuclear power plant, it's completley finished and all you have to do is turn it on, but it will never ever be turned on. The people in charge were more worried with cost effectiveness and cutting corners than following laws. The inspectors came and left 5 minutes later when they found out not one of the welders were certified. The only thing the company can do is tear down the plant and start over again

Originally posted by Nerdling
Well you're the original Illegal immigrants so it's a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

There's nothing wrong with immigration, people tend to forget the mexicans are the ones doing menial labour and the jobs that are undesirable to most Americans.

"Original Illegal Immigrants"? I wasn't aware that there were people that old in the United States. I won't even address the second paragraph because of the obvious lack of research/knowledge that you display.

Many Illegal Immigrants work for people that have no sense of responsibility in their business activities, they prefer to say "I don't work for the government, I don't have to enfore their rules", they are the ones trying to make a quick buck so that they can have a better personal lifestyle than everyone else. They are also the ones that are economically, politically and socially undermining the traditional structure and operating effectiveness of the United States by reinforcing the belief that there are "plenty" of jobs for illegals. The Federal penalties for hring Illegal Aliens should be raised to $100,000.00 per infraction (knowingly) and $50,000.00 per infraction for unknowingly hiring undocumented aliens. The reason for that is people I have met who hire undocumented aliens state quite openly that you can tell if they are undocumented when they show up for work.

Originally posted by Nerdling
Well you're the original Illegal immigrants so it's a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

There's nothing wrong with immigration, people tend to forget the mexicans are the ones doing menial labour and the jobs that are undesirable to most Americans.

Repeating yourself only proves that you are repeatedly missing the point. First, please look up the word "illegal" in a dictionary.

Next, your argument is so lame that if carried back to it's logical origin would mean everyone outside of Ethiopia (or the Garden of Eden, depending on your beliefs) would be an "illegal immigrant".

Regarding the tired old menial jobs argument, it's been refuted so many times, but for you I'll repeat it again. Illegals cost the U.S. more in social services and crime than they provide in services. They are a net drain on the economy. Still don't understand? Try visiting a hospital along the southern border and check out the waiting rooms full of illegals that don't pay for treatment, so the increased cost has to be pushed on to citizens and legal immigrants. The check the schools. Then the jails. Then get in a car accident and then try to get any recovery for your losses ...

Starting to get it yet?

[edit on 3/17/2005 by centurion1211]