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A.D. 70;- Where's the Abomination?

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posted on May, 8 2020 @ 05:02 PM
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I often see the claim that the “abomination” passage in the gospels, when Jesus talks in the Temple, is a prediction of the events of A.D. 70.
Either a genuine short-term prophecy, or (more likely) a prophecy written “after the event”.
There is a very serious objection to both versions of this claim, especially the second version.
The events don’t match.
The gospel prophecy outlines events in a particular order, but they don’t occur in the same order (or one of the elements is missing) when the Jewish rebellion finally unfolds.

There are three key elements in the sequence (Matthew ch24 vv15-21) ;

1 ) The abomination.
“You see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place”.
We need to remind ourselves what the word “abomination” means, in the context of the Jewish religion.
Modern translations like “sacrilege” distort the meaning.
In the Old Testament, “abomination” means idolatry, anything that diverts Israel’s people from the God of Israel to other gods.
The gods themselves are abominations, their images are abominations, the rituals that belong to their worship are abominations.
The word “abomination” or “ disgusting thing” describes what the Lord feels about idolatry.
The full phrase “abomination of desolation” is used in Maccabees about the infamous idol which Antiochus Epiphanes had placed in the Temple in Jerusalem.
I take “desolation” to be a reference to the sense of isolation experienced by the Jews, when the regular sacrifice, their point of contact with their own God, was brought to an end.
The phrase in Matthew is an echo of Daniel, and the episode in Daniel is clearly modelled upon the action of Antiochus Epiphanes.
Both prophecies can be taken to mean “There will be something as bad as what Antiochus did”.
Whatever it is, it will be something idolatrous, something which diverts to itself the worship that belongs to Israel’s God.

[See also the previous thread What is an Abomination of Desolation? ]

2 ) The flight.
“Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains”.

3 ) The tribulation.
“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be”.

If there’s going to be a match for the prophecy in Matthew, the elements MUST come in that order.
The flight is prompted by the sight of the abomination (which therefore comes first), and the purpose of the flight is to escape the onset of the tribulation (which therefore comes last).

What do we find in the history of A.D. 70?

We can admit that there is a time of tribulation, but this admission comes with two reservations.
In the first place, the tribulation of A.D. 70 could not honestly be called “such as has not been from the beginning of the world”.
Even within Judea, the events of the Babylonian conquest were comparable.
Comparable events, and perhaps worse events, have also happened elsewhere.
In the second place, the tribulation of A.D. 70 could not honestly be called “such as … never will be [again]”.
Even within Jewish history, the experience of the Holocaust is comparable.
The tribulation of A.D.70 was terrible indeed, but not uniquely and unsurpassably terrible, which is what the passage demands.

We can also admit that there was a flight.
The hasty exodus of the Christian community is embedded in church tradition.
Early church historians tell us that the church in Jerusalem made their escape to Pella, on the other side of the Jordan, before the city was destroyed.

But the sequence is not complete until we can identify an Abomination, and that’s where the difficulty lies.
The destruction of the Temple, together with the foundation of a Roman city with Roman images on the site of Jerusalem would fit the definition exactly. This was an “abomination” (setting up idolatry) associated with a “desolation” (the loss of the Jewish focus of worship).
Unfortunately the timetable is all wrong.
The Roman city (Aelia Capitolina) was not founded until the time of Hadrian, sixty years later.
While even the destruction of the Temple came at the end of the immediate sequence, not the beginning.
It was part of the climax of the tribulation, and it could not act as a signal for the “flight”, which had already happened.
If the prophecy of Matthew is going to be fulfilled, then the Abomination must necessarily come first.

Therefore some people look for an “abomination” in some act of sacrilege or desecration. The last time this subject came up, I was being told that the arrival of Roman soldiers with their eagles within the walls of Jerusalem constituted the Abomination. There are three things wrong with this idea.

1 ) Roman soldiers within Jerusalem were not exactly a novelty. Paul was rescued by one such party, which certainly came close to the Temple.
2 ) It takes much more than a simple “desecration” to make an Abomination. That’s not what the word “abomination” means.
All the way through the Old Testament, I must repeat, “abomination” means “idolatry”, setting up an alternative object of worship.
The “Abomination” indicated by the words of Jesus was not going to be something as trivial as the mere presence of a religious badge.
3 ) And in any case, this too comes much too late, and could not serve as a signal for the flight of the church to Pella, which had already happened.

In fact the early church themselves did not connect the flight to Pella with a previous abomination. According to Epiphanius, the flight was prompted by an urgent warning from “an angel of God”, given at the time. According to Eusebius, it was “an oracle of God”, which comes to the same thing.

I’ve seen the suggestion that Christians recognised the arrival of the Roman armies in Judaea as a fulfilment of “”Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together” (v28), and fled for that reason. Again, there are three flaws in this argument.
1 ) Once more, the presence of Roman armies in Judaea was not a novelty.
2 ) Once more, the presence even of Roman eagles is not an abomination.
3 ) As far as I know, the early church writers themselves don’t make even this connection. It’s a theory put forward by modern commentators.

In short, there is no recognisable Abomination in the sequence of events.

Now, the whole point of “prophecy after the event” is that there should be a resemblance between the two. It should be easy enough. The originator pens a recognisable description of something which has happened already and predates it. He also needs to draw attention to the resemblance, so that people can marvel at it.

If Matthew’s reference to the Abomination of Desolation was meant as prophecy after the event, it was remarkably incompetent, because it fails at both stages. Someone has written a description which largely differs from what happened. He has also buried the achievement to such a degree that the early church completely failed to notice whatever resemblance to the events of A.D. 70 might have been found. So what was the point?

It seems to me that the explanation of this passage as “prophecy after the event” simply does not work. It was either a failed prophecy, or a prophecy about something which has not happened yet.


edit on 8-5-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 8 2020 @ 07:01 PM
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Could this have anything maybe to do with it. I will wait patiently for whenever it comes. Strangely I had just read these passages having restarted the New Testament again recently so I enjoyed your post very much as usual.

After Jesus was sacrificed would this not be an abomination?


SANHEDRIN PREPARING IN HOPES OF SACRIFICING PASSOVER LAMB ON TEMPLE MOUNT FOR FIRST TIME IN 2,000 YEARS
Jerusalem, April 3, 2020

orthochristian.com...


“In the Organization of 70 Nations based on Mount Zion, every nation shall retain its language, culture, and traditions. Each nation shall retain its sovereignty in its place without any threat from roaming bands of refugees.”

“Each nation shall be solely responsible for maintaining a fitting and proper justice system as per the Seven Noahide Laws incumbent upon all of mankind.”

www.breakingisraelnews.com...




“‘The world is being threatened in so many ways; ecologically, atomic weapons, terrorism, economically,’ Rabbi Weiss told Breaking Israel News. ‘The United Nations has failed to unite the world in any effort to cope with these issues. That is because the UN is not based on Biblical principles that unite mankind. Human rights originated in the Bible, as did laws governing war. Ecology is a Biblical concept. When the nations came to Jerusalem to pray together in the Temple, they did so in recognition of the human principles that we all share. The United Nations rejected these human principles that bind and as such, has become a political battlefield that only makes these problems worse. They have appointed human rights violators to preside over the Human Rights Council. There is no justice in the International Court of Justice.’...

“We are seeing the end of the UN, as the US and Israel separate themselves from it, ‘Rabbi Weiss said. ‘The United Nations should have collapsed long ago but it has drawn power from its decision to establish the State of Israel in 1948.’

“The Biblical Sanhedrin in Jerusalem was a gathering point for universal cooperation and justice. The high-point of the concert came when the foreign representatives went up to the stage to sign an agreement with the Sanhedrin.”

Sanhedrin Invites Nikki Haley to be Honorary President of Organization of Seventy Nations

watch-unto-prayer.org...
edit on 8-5-2020 by SeaWorthy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 8 2020 @ 07:04 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI
Let me ask you this... Lets say you accept Jesus as you savior and the finished work of the cross as your salvation. Then you begin to kill chickens as in Voodoo and then you begin to rely on that blood of the chickens to be your salvational redemption. Would the act of and reliance on the blood of chickens be an abomination to God?



posted on May, 8 2020 @ 07:07 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy
Briefly, it has to be something that interrupts the worship of the true God, and substitutes the worship of another god. That's how we get "desolation" and "abomination". I'm not sure that story would achieve those effects.
(This is why the definition was offered first)



posted on May, 8 2020 @ 07:12 PM
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a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
In the Old Testament usage, "abomination" is the worship of a different god.



posted on May, 8 2020 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: PhilbertDezineck
P.S. I also refer you to the reply I made in my previous thread.



originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck
I would submit that the abomination was a continuation of animal sacrifice after Jesus's ultimate sacrifice.

I see a couple of difficulties with that theory.
Firstly, in Maccabees and Daniel, the stopping of the sacrifice is the desolation. It is a bad thing, not a good thing, because it interrupts the true worship of God.

Secondly, remember that the Abomination is the signal for an immediate flight. If the continuation of animal sacrifice after the crucifixion was the Abomination, then that would apply immediately after the crucifixion, and the flight from Jerusalem should have come immediateky after the crucifixion. This conflicts both with the words of Jesus and with what happened in Acts.

At the beginning of Acts, the resurrected Jesus remained with the disciples for some time, without telling them to depart immediately. In fact the Jerusalem church did not scatter abroad until the death of Stephen, and even then not completely. In Matthew ch24, there is plainly a long interval before the Abomination appears as a new event.

The New Testament doesn't actually make a big issue out of animal sacrifice being evil. Neither Jesus nor Paul bother to talk about it. Hebrews tells the Jewish Christian they should "move on" from the sacrificial system, but only because it is redundant, because it never really worked, and because it distracts them from putting their full trust in Jesus.

Finally, the Temple sacrifice doesn't fit the defintion because it isn't redirecting worship towards a different God.



posted on May, 8 2020 @ 07:53 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI
Firstly, in Maccabees and Daniel, the stopping of the sacrifice is the desolation. It is a bad thing, not a good thing, because it interrupts the true worship of God.

Jesuses act of redemption was an act of abomination since it stopped the daily sacrifice.



posted on May, 8 2020 @ 09:24 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

The Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount was finished @ 692 CE. That's fairly close to a '70' of sorts. Not sure if it would qualify, though?

The normal Roman practice of suovetaurilia or sacrifices for the puricfication for pagan temples often included sacrifice of a pig. The Roman troops besieging Jerusalem had images of an Eagle with lightning in its claws, (representative of Jupiter) and the Tenth Legion, who were present, had an insignia of a wild boar (an unclean animal).

In Wars 6.6.2, Josephus says that the Romans, in AD 69, set up their ensigns and flags at the Eastern Gate to the Temple and offered sacrifices to them.

It isn't too far a stretch that Titus had his forces perform a suovetaurilia, slaughtering pigs, to their insignia, right at the Eastern Gate of the Temple, as a way of 'cleansing' the temple for them, but, according to Wars 2.14.5 this "polluted" the place for the Jews.

If that was taken as a sign of the abomination that leads to desolation (the destruction of the Temple and the old city was a future event) at the time is unknown. Definitely, later Christians interpreted it that way.

edit on 8/5/2020 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 8 2020 @ 11:37 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


Mathew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.



Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


No need to speculate when the Bible answers itself. These are the same exact events described in two different passages in the New Testament. The same exact things being described happens in both instances. When you combine Mathew and Luke together you get a clear picture that matches the prophecy in Daniel.

The time of the Gentiles is the abomination of desolation that occurs until the age of Christ, when are all united in one faith. The age of the gentiles starts with the Romans and the subsequent church that put a man, “The Vicar of Christ” In the seat of God.

It’s not until the age of Christ that the true message and unity comes to mankind. Which would be the end of the abomination of desolation.
edit on 9-5-2020 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-5-2020 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 01:19 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73
In was under the impression that there is a time of the gentiles which operate on a porch. I do not ever see them entering into the holy of holies. So the abomination can not be the gentiles.



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 01:39 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut
The Abomination, according to Jesus, was to be the signal for the flight. There is a definite flight in the events of A.D. 70, and all your proposals come afterwards. Therefore, as I said at the beginning, the sequences do not match because events are coming in the wrong order.




edit on 9-5-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 01:45 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73
The difficulty in this proposal is that the Abomination is to be the signal for an urgent flight, on the grounds that the tribulation will come almost immediately. Your version of the Abomination therefore lasts too long, and there is no obvious "flight" reaction.



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 02:06 AM
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originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck

Firstly, in Maccabees and Daniel, the stopping of the sacrifice is the desolation. It is a bad thing, not a good thing, because it interrupts the true worship of God.

Jesuses act of redemption was an act of abomination since it stopped the daily sacrifice.

I'm a little puzzled to know where your logic is leading here. I'm aware that the first paragraph is a quotation from me, and the second paragraph is your application of the statement.

Are you now trying to argue that the redemptive act of Jesus was a bad thing? That's what you are saying if you call it an abomination.

The real fault of this line of argument is trying to apply the label "stopping the sacrifice". This started up because somebody saw a verbal resemblance, and was willing to misunderstand Daniel to make it work.

For Daniel, "stopping the sacrifice" means preventing people from doing it, thus interrupting their worship.
Historically, Jesus did NOT stop the sacrifice, in that sense. The Romans did that when they pulled down the Temple.
Theologically, Jesus did not actually prevent the Temple sacrifice from taking place. He simply made it redundant.

I've tried to point out before that the New Testament doesn't actually go big on Temple sacrifce being an evil thing. The worst it says about the sacrifce is the line of argument, found in Hebrews, that sacrifice is now redundant, and never worked properly in the first place.

The theory that the act of Jesus was a "stopping of the sacrifice" is an ingenious but faulty line of interpretationn.



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 07:52 AM
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Here's how I see it. Where do you find the abomination of desolation in Daniel? In verse 11-31. It's not a discrete prophecy. It's a part of a larger whole. And probably the cause of this warning about it.

(whoso readeth, let him understand)

My guess is that Jesus Christ is implying that the entire prophecy of Daniel 11 is supposed to happen in the end times. After all he is giving the answer to this question.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And this is the reason for the Daniel 11 prophecy.

10-14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

As I see it the prophesies of Daniel are the roadmap of the apocalypse. When you start to see the landmarks mentioned know you are getting close. And Jesus Christ is elaborating on it. Adding a few details here and there on the important landmarks.

And another detail. In verse 24-28 he mentions a carcass. We already know he made a Daniel reference in 24-15. So if you look at all the prophesies of Daniel where do you find a carcass? In Daniel 8. The battle of the ram and goat prophecy. So then, which question is he answering here? But it appears the answer is to watch for when countries/kings are being conquered in the middle east. 2 for the horns and one for the ram itself.



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 08:18 AM
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a reply to: ntech
Yes, the Abomination is the act of the hostile ruler which marks his breach with God, a kind of declaration of war.



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 09:43 AM
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the Main Stream, major religious interpretations have a contorted explanation of the Abomination of Desolation...

see: Abomination of desolation
The "abomination of desolation" in the Book of Daniel was the pagan offerings that replaced the twice-daily offering to Yahweh in the Jewish temple in the time of the Greek king Antiochus IV, or the altar on which such offerings were made, and "makes desolate" is probably a reference to Antiochus himself as the bringer of desolation to Jerusalem.
The expression was later taken up by the authors of the gospels in the context of the Roman destruction of the temple in 70 CE: chapter 13 of Mark, for example, is a speech of Jesus concerning the return of the Son of Man and the advent of the Kingdom of God, to be signaled by the "abomination of desolation."

Wikipedia
 

 


the Abomination is Created and Placed 'in the Holy Place'
as the result of the AntiChrist getting the Mortal Head Wound at the Middle of the 70th Week...exactly at the mid point of the 7 year End-Times era (3 1/2 years of sorrows then 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation)

the False Prophet creates an Image-to-the-Beast/AC who recovers from the fatal head wound...
The 'Image' gets Supernatural Ability to Breathe and Speak, & Put-to-Death ALL who do not Worship the 'Resurrected' AC or the 'Image'

the Image is the Abomination, -->> because it is an Artificial/Synthetic Life-Form, Likely a digital/Artificial Intelligence, Hologram Projection, run by a mega Quatrilion MB Quantum computer system tapped into the Internet-of-Everything Ledger

 
ETA


all the other exhaustive rationalizations are nonsense...unless that interpretation also meets the promised Qualifier---> that God will not start the End-of-Age and his period-of-Wrath Until the AntiChrist be Revealed which is the same 2 week period when the false resurrection and the Image and then the Mark all happen in the Passover weeks of some future year
edit on th31158903774209222020 by St Udio because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 12:06 PM
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10 Dollars say that it the Roman Catbolic Church in O.T, all the while the N.T says it isnt...all the while Revelation says it is, but it was forgivable the entire time.
edit on 9-5-2020 by Specimen88 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 12:41 PM
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a reply to: chr0naut

That's not a bad thought process there.

Nicely done.

It's one I've no problem following, either.



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 12:57 PM
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The Sanhedrin is creating an image of the UN.


. ‘The United Nations has failed to unite the world in any effort to cope with these issues. That is because the UN is not based on Biblical principles that unite mankind.




“The Biblical Sanhedrin in Jerusalem was a gathering point for universal cooperation and justice. The high-point of the concert came when the foreign representatives went up to the stage to sign an agreement with the Sanhedrin.”


The 70 nations signed and will be allowed to worship their various "gods" on the Temple mound, I assume also while the sacrifice takes place. Who is the sacrifice really being made too?.




The Sanhedrin also emphasized that the plan to bring the altar to the Temple Mount is consistent with President Trump’s recently revealed Deal of the Century, which recognized Israel’s full sovereignty over the holy site.

“People of every faith should be permitted to pray on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif,in a manner that is fully respectful to their religion, taking into account the times of each religion’s prayers and holidays, as well as other religious factors” the text of the deal reads.




Sanhedrin Invites Nikki Haley to be Honorary President of Organization of 70 Nations

orthochristian.com...
www.breakingisraelnews.com...

The People who are renewing their animal sacrifice never accepted Jesus and are waiting for their savior.

Creation Concert: Prophecy Revealed as Nations Recognize Sanhedrin


However, what took place was not merely wonderful music accompanied by a spectacular light show: the event actually encapsulated several prophetic incidents taking place at once. In the not-so-distant future,the event may be identified as the moment a new, Biblically correct United Nations was established, potentially leading to a new era of global cooperation.

breakingisraelnewscom.kinsta.cloud...

Matthew
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.


edit on 9-5-2020 by SeaWorthy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2020 @ 01:01 PM
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a reply to: Specimen88
The problem there is finding the rapid sequence of abomination-flight-tribulation which Matthew describes. I think that works against any proposed solution which lasts a long time.




edit on 9-5-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)




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