The Religion You Can't Talk About

a reply to: Murgatroid

I have found just the opposite to be true, quite a few of these people are coming back with proof in fact...

Proof of what?

I didn't say there was nothing to NDE's. I said individual experiences should be taken with a grain of salt, and that NDE's should be analyzed comparatively. There are plenty of accounts that favor different religions as well as no religions. Any youtube or google search will show this. To cherry pick the ones we like because they confirm our bias is subjective to say the least, and strengthens the evidence that those who experience NDE's often experience what is in line with their beliefs, or lack of. The only other plausible explanation is that they interpret the experience to suit their beliefs afterward, which brings us full circle back to my original post.

it's in the Bible.

Jesus told the parable of the rich man and a beggar called Lazarus. Lazarus is taken to Paradise ('Abraham's Bosom') and the rich man to hades.

the rich man asks Abraham for some relief and is denied. Next he asks if he can 'go back' and alert his brothers about their fate. Abraham replies no, they have Moses and the prophets to guide them. the rich man insists--if one comes back from the dead they would believe him--but Abraham says no, if they won't believe Moses and the Prophets, they won't believe a man, even if he comes back from the dead.

conclusion; once a person dies he/she is not allowed / able to go back and tell what they saw.

16th chapter of the book of Luke

a reply to: Klassified

There are plenty of accounts that favor different religions as well as no religions.

I am more than willing to contemplate the possibility that this could just as easily be a malicious spirit screwing with the individual concerned, showing and telling them exactly what they want to hear, causing confusion. However, there is one type of experience that certainly doesn't favor beliefs different than Christianity. For instance, can you compare the experiences of Christians sending these so called beings called "extraterrestrials" running away in the name of Jesus as an experience comparable to others? From what I can see, the Christian experience to alleged alien abduction attempts are unique. Maybe you have seen testimonies of people combating "aliens" in the name of Buddha or "allah", I haven't.

originally posted by: Archivalist
Are there any readings or materials available in regards to a belief system, such that:

When one realizes the REAL truth of experience after death, it is designed in such a way that you are rendered incapable of sharing the information with anyone else, even those that already do/have, no matter what?

I have reason to believe that there must be something established which fits this description.

A special transmission outside of scriptures,
Not rooted in any spoken or written words,
It's meaning comes from the deepest depths of our minds
And it lets us experience our own true nature with a direct knowing

Some people belief if you concentrate on certain thoughts or prayers while humming at the right frequency you will open your mind's door directly to God.

a reply to: Archivalist

I got something close here. Per the book of Hosea in the Bible there is a prophecy where Israel and Judah were to be cut off from their God by a curse for 2000 years. Followed by the 1000 year "day of Jezreel."

I would pose the last 2000 years are abnormal. And once the curse ends things will be quite different. The day of Jezreel promises to be quite different. I'm guessing if you ask the question to God in 10-15 years he will give you an answer.

originally posted by: ElGoobero
once a person dies he/she is not allowed / able to go back and tell what they saw.

Matthew 10:8, it's ALSO in the Bible... "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils..." Confirmed in numerous other places throughout OT & NT scripture and countless other dead raisings that take place on a daily basis... As I said earlier, many of these are coming back with proof as well...

a reply to: Archivalist

I suppose it's not likely for such a religion to spread.

I'm not looking for a reference in the Bible.
I'm not looking for a conversation with God.
I'm not looking for information about the afterlife.

Just the idea that the truth CAN be realized, in life, but not shared.
Independent of established religious sects.

I suppose I'm either not articulating my question well, or this isn't the place to ask it.

originally posted by: Archivalist
I'm not looking for a reference in the Bible.
I'm not looking for a conversation with God.
I'm not looking for information about the afterlife.

Just the idea that the truth CAN be realized, in life, but not shared.
Independent of established religious sects.

I suppose I'm either not articulating my question well, or this isn't the place to ask it.

I can't comprehend of a truth that can be comprehended and not shared.
constant theme of any belief system I'm aware of is 'spread the word'

I can conceive of a spiritual insight so deep one can't put it into words effectively
but I'd think one could still try to explain it to others.

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Joeshiloh
a reply to: Bluntone22

Does this also apply to people who were clinically dead and then come back to life with these incredible stories. Or is that something people don't want to talk about.

NDE's are inherently untrustworthy as the post below yours demonstrates quite well. That's not to say there is nothing at all to take from them in a comparative study maybe, but individual experience should be taken with a grain of salt, imo.

Especially once people like Dr. Eby start selling books about it. And/or are trying to generate some traffic towards their youtube channels or websites, which also can be a lucrative business. I wonder how many people actually verify whatever story or stories they are told by these types. How would one even do that if no one else has checked up on or spoken out about some parts of their stories that can be checked (for example, someone close to the events claimed, like the atheist MD mentioned by Murgatroid)? For example, did Dr. Eby really fell off a second story balcony head first onto concrete and split his skull in two? Who was this atheist MD Murgatroid was talking about, what's his name, and did anyone ever bother to ask his side of the story? Did this unnamed atheist MD really tell him: "Shut up!" and did he really curse him out as he had already pronounced him dead? Was there really no blood in Dr. Eby's body? (8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas. But I recon one can still find somewhat intact blood cells, that could be termed "blood", in the body after 10 days. So was Dr. Eby declared clinically dead for at least 10 days after already having shown the signs of livor mortis which would precede the decomposition of blood? Otherwise, this part of his story sounds even more unbelievable and more like convenient spin regarding what is meant with "no blood in his body".)

If all we have to go on is Dr. Eby's word on it (as would be the case if one only reads the story he's telling, regardless of who wrote a book or made a video about it; and this counts for the other stories being told as well), I would be a bit skeptical about it. I'd want to hear from someone that is not on his side who knows some details about these type of claims (not even the personal experiences and visions and such) before I believe everything that is claimed in favorable books and videos about it. And I suspect that in most of these cases, nobody even bothers to check up on such claims (not the claims about personal experiences, but the stuff that can be checked such as the examples I gave for Dr. Eby's story), because exposing frauds is not part of their job description if they're like that atheist MD for example; if there ever was one.

I can also totally see one doctor helping out another doctor selling his story for some kind of personal benefit, a favor related to their careers perhaps (especially if they work in the same hospital, city, state or even country). So even if this atheist MD was tracked down, maybe even interviewed for one of these books and videos that are favorable to the storyline as told by Dr. Eby or his friends (associates), and confirmed the Dr. Eby's story, I'd still be skeptical. I think it's more plausible that the story is completely bogus or given a bit of spin to make it sound more intriguing (helps selling books about it), so I'd actually be less skeptical of someone debunking it (or demonstrating where spin was used to increase sales and the amount of attention drawn by it).

But like most people who aren't as intrigued by these sort of claims and books, I'm much more likely to ignore it altogether. Causing the situation that there's nobody out there even bothering to debunk these scammers with their bogusly spinned stories for marketing purposes. Bringing us back to the question:
"I wonder how many people actually verify whatever story or stories they are told by these types. How would one even do that if no one else has checked up on or spoken out about some parts of their stories that can be checked (for example, someone close to the events claimed, like the atheist MD mentioned by Murgatroid)?"

"No one else" would be referring to anyone who isn't on their side of the story, not someone with a vested interest in speaking positively about these liars and the books they're selling. Yes, I'm calling Dr. Eby a liar. That is my conclusion (half-truths or spinned so-called or so-presented "truths" are lies in my opinion as well, especially if they are spinned for marketing purposes). The fact that he's selling a book about it (which gets endorsed almost right at the start of the first video used by Murgatroid), is a dead give-away for me for this conclusion (the blood claim also doesn't help in trusting the story as it is told by Murgatroid now, don't know if Dr. Eby makes the same claim in his book, can't be bothered to check; but if that's the impression Murgatroid got from those videos, it already tells me something fishy is going on).

Talking about death can be quite lucrative. In this regard the Encyclopædia Britannica says: “During the latter half of the 20th century, death has become a strangely popular subject. Before that time, perhaps rather surprisingly, it was a theme largely eschewed in serious scientific, and to a lesser extent, philosophical speculations.” According to Josep Fericgla, a Catalonian professor of cultural anthropology, “death has become the last effective taboo in our societies, and therefore, it is one of the most important sources today of ideological manipulation.” Professor Michael Kearl, of the Department of Sociology and Anthropology of Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas, U.S.A., explained with regard to the manipulation of the subject of death: “From our late twentieth century vantage point [1999], we find that . . . death is becoming recognized as the central dynamism underlying the life, vitality, and structure of the social order. Death is the muse of our religions, philosophies, political ideologies, arts and medical technologies. It sells newspapers and insurance policies, invigorates the plots of our television programs, and . . . even powers our industries.”

There are films and television programs in which death is even romanticized—depicting the myth of life after death and the supposed return of some to visit the living—serving only to trivialize death.

Revelations of Another World? (Awake!—1979)

“REVELATIONS” coming from ‘another world’ are simply too widespread to ignore. Commonly these communications are reputedly from dead persons with whom the living were acquainted as humans. In his diaries, W. L. Mackenzie King, prime minister of Canada for over 20 years, claimed to receive such revelations. The Toronto Star of January 3, 1979, explains:

“His visions and seances kept him in touch with his long-dead adored mother, with Hitler and with United States president Franklin Roosevelt, among others.

“On Aug. 29, 1948, at Kingsmere, his home in the Gatineau Hills north of Ottawa, King wrote he had had a vision of German dictator Adolf Hitler walking on ‘something that looked like my bed quilt, making rows of button fastenings over the top.’

“All his ‘conversations’ and ‘visions’ were recorded in his diaries.”

James Albert Pike, a prominent Episcopalian bishop during the 1950’s and 1960’s, also received revelations from ‘another world.’ The communications, achieved with the assistance of a spirit medium, were reputedly from his dead son, Jim. In Look magazine, Pike reported the following conversation with Jim:

“‘Thanks, Jim,’ I replied. ‘. . . I’ll be calling your mother to tell her about what’s going on here now.’

“‘Good,’ was the response. ‘I want her to know—to know I really love her—that I’m alive.’

“‘She believes that, Jim,’ I responded reassuringly. ‘She did all along. By the way, about things in your new situation: are you . . . alone, or—’

“‘I have masses of people around me, and hands lifting me up, as it were,’ came through—and, after a pause, ‘I was so unhappy until I could make you know.’”

There are many reports of conversations such as these, even as there are similar reports from persons who have been revived from apparent death. Evidently, communications are being received from somebody. But they are not being received from the dead! The Bible is very emphatic about this when it says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Eccl. 9:5) Death is not a transition from life here to a life beyond.

Who, then, is responsible for these revelations from ‘another world’?

He is a liar! (part 1 of 2)

a reply to: whereislogic

How appropriate of you to bring up the topic of scammers, propaganda, bogus stories, and lucrative business since your very own "Watchtower Society" has been exposed as one of THE biggest frauds in modern history...

Jehovah's witness are all about the money. It's all about Laundering Real Estate. It's all a bout Bequests at time of Death. It's all about money laundering through build-out, maintenance, and upkeep. It's all about selling marketing materials to the faithful. It's a strange business model that has worked for 100 years.1. Laundering real estate is the number one source of income for the Jehovah's witnesses and Watchtower. It is estimated at over 800 million dollars in Brooklyn New York alone in the year 2013. Properties are purchased and improved over a long period of time and paid for by the congregations and shell corporations. The properties are improved and eventually sold creating a windfall for the parent corporations and Jehovah Witness Management

Jehovanomics: Getting Played By The Jehovah Witnesses

Allegations of corruption, collusion, banking fraud, and a 'money laundering scheme' have since been leveled against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, their lawyers, and their bankers, JPMorgan Chase Bank.'" So, the elders who tried to warn the WTBTS about fraud being committed by other elders and COs got disfellowshipped. Same thing that happened to the JWs who tried to tell the truth about the GBs handling of the pedophile problem. They were disfellowshipped to discredit them, but later it was found that the whistleblowers were exactly correct.

Massive Fraud Within The JW Organization

The Watchtower Money Machine

Follow the money…I’ve always maintained that most organized religion is about money or power or both. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society makes a huge deal about the fact that they don’t pass a collection plate around and then casts stones at other churches for doing it. The sad truth is that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society makes huge sums of money from the “sale” and distribution of these “aids”.

I would also like to note that the “Worldwide Kingdom Hall Building Fund” is nothing but a sham. The money collected in these building fund boxes of the Kingdom Halls is funneled back to the mother ship. One would expect that the money would be freely given to those congregations needing to build new Kingdom Halls. That is not the case. The money is lent out to these congregations at various amounts of interest. I was made privy to this when we built a Hall back in the early 80’s in Jackson, MS. The society lent the congregation the money to build it at a whopping 8% interest!

The Watchtower Money Machine

Why doesn't the average JW see through all of this doubletalk? Because he simply doesn't know the facts. He has been told that the Society doesn't make any money from selling literature, and that it all comes through donations. Imagining himself in a superior position, the JW then derides other religious organizations for their financial practices. Moreover, he is ignorant of what the Bible says about supporting Christian ministry, because the Watchtower has distorted this as well. He is trained not to question the Watchtower, fearing that he might become an "apostate" for such doubts. Such techniques are reminiscent of Orwell's Socialistic Society (Ingsoc) typified in his book 1984:

How the Watchtower Was Financed

a reply to: Murgatroid

Your desire to have your ears tickled is noted. [edit: or perhaps even to tickle the ears of others; although it seems more defensively motivated regarding your comment about Dr. Eby, not liking what I said about it, not willing to put up with it, then lashing out in defense of Dr. Eby's story as presented by you as something worthwhile rather than a scam to sell books to those who are intrigued by such stories about experiences of life after death, and visions of heaven and Jesus, in spite of what the Bible actually says about the subject; which is obviously relevant if someone is talking about visions of heaven and Jesus after death, biblical subjects. That last part is in response to BerkshireEntity's comment below.]

2 Timothy 4:3,4

3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

You already aren't that selective in what you accept as honest information about Jehovah's witnesses anyway, as long as it tickles your ears it's all good apparently (which seems to count for other things such as Dr. Eby's story that contradicts clear biblical statements about the state of the dead as well, so it fits the pattern).

“The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Eccl. 9:5) According to the Bible [edit and response to BerkshireEntity below: I was talking about Dr. Eby's story contradicting biblical statements after all], death is not a transition from life here to a life beyond. According to the Bible [same edit], at death a person ceases to exist. According to the Bible, at death the spirit (or life-force) leaves the body (Eccl. 12:7)*. Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body?

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit [Hebrew, from ruʹach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (NAB, Ro, Yg, and Dy [145:4] here render ruʹach as “spirit.” Some translations say “breath.”) (Also Psalm 104:29)

“His thoughts do perish”, “but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all”. So if someone claims to have had visions of Jesus after supposedly being declared dead, and the claim about seeing or experiencing at least something is true, perhaps they were never dead to begin with? Something to consider for those making claims about experiences with heaven and Jesus, and those buying into these sort of stories about biblical subjects.[another edit for the same reason]

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal (One Myth Leads to Another)
Myth 2: The Wicked Suffer in Hell

Myth 3: All Good People Go to Heaven
Part 1—What Do the Scriptures Say About “Survival After Death”?

*: Can the human soul die?

Ezek. 18:4: “Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*Hebrew reads “the neʹphesh.” KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy render it “the soul.” Some translations say “the man” or “the person.”)

Is the soul the same as the spirit?

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ruʹach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ruʹach; but the word translated soul is neʹphesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ruʹach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

Bringing us back to the question: Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body? Answered by Ps. 146:4 directly, and indirectly by Eccl. 9:5 (as in, 'by implication', since it's talking about the state of the dead, which is after the spirit or life-force has left the body). The answer is a clear "no" from the Bible. An important fact/truth to consider for those talking about experiences with heaven and Jesus after death.

a reply to: whereislogic
You act as though your views are superior to anyone else's views. Also, you think your views are "truth", and they are not. Regurgitating selective bible verses that have been butchered and rewritten (by kings, various religions etc to fit their narrative at the time) from the actual very old original bible does not help you prove what your truths are, it only erodes it.

a reply to: BerkshireEntity

You're ignoring that Dr. Eby is making claims about biblical subjects such as heaven and Jesus. Your personal disdain for the Bible is irrelevant.

originally posted by: BerkshireEntity
a reply to: whereislogic
You act as though your views are superior to anyone else's views. Also, you think your views are "truth", and they are not.

That would be what you did just now (the last part*), even though they are irrelevant regarding any evaluation concerning Dr. Eby's claims that Murgatroid felt the need to promote as "truth" (as having actually happened, as being a reliable story about an experience after death, rather than merely a near death experience or fabrication for profit).

*: or if you change "anyone else's" to "my" then the first part as well.

a reply to: Murgatroid
Yes the JW money laundering schemes are widespread and very similar to those tactics that scientology uses, it's pretty sickening actually.

I Can't Talk About It...
Religio Is A Spanish Term And It Is Cryptic With A Shroud All Its Own.

The Pronunciation Is "[E]Ra La G[oy]o".

This Means In English "You Are The Goyim"...

A Goyim Does Exactly What You Are Doing Now.

Beware...

I Lie Alot... But For The Sake Of Mind Bending.
Yours And Mine.

Well there is Pythagorasism but that a lost art since nobody can talk about it.

Religion shouldnt be talked about, just more or less accepted. Since if one talks about religion, and it's own theology, it might as well be called philosophy if one can talk or debate about it.

originally posted by: whereislogic
You're ignoring that Dr. Eby is making claims about biblical subjects such as heaven and Jesus.

Actually not true, we're only taking the advice YOU yourself have given in your own sig line:

"Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda! Be selective: A completely open mind could be likened to a pipe that lets just anything flow through it—even sewage. No one wants a mind contaminated with poison."

a reply to: Murgatroid

So what do you do? You post mental poison and standard anti-JW propaganda from youtube or some internetpage produced by people who use the Bible as toiletpaper which has nothing to do with Dr. Eby's story about biblical subjects that contradicts the Bible's statements about the state of the dead. Or this thread for that matter. Ending up tickling the ears of someone who also uses the Bible as toiletpaper, figuratively speaking; happily spending time on the same anti-JW bandwagon to distract from the issues with Dr. Eby's story that you introduced as something worth looking into (yet in your responses to me you don't talk about it anymore; I guess it's not worth responding to some critique about it other than responding with the 'pointy finger'-technique).

Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue.

The original issue I responded to being Dr. Eby's story and book sales concerning life (experiences, thoughts, visions, conversations with Jesus) after death, life and experiences after death being the topic of this thread; not me or JW's.

Source: Red Herring - Examples and Definition of Red Herring

How is the claim about there being no blood in the body of Dr. Eby not bogus again?

originally posted by: whereislogic

... Was there really no blood in Dr. Eby's body? (8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas. But I recon one can still find somewhat intact blood cells, that could be termed "blood", in the body after 10 days. So was Dr. Eby declared clinically dead for at least 10 days after already having shown the signs of livor mortis which would precede the decomposition of blood? Otherwise, this part of his story sounds even more unbelievable and more like convenient spin regarding what is meant with "no blood in his body".)

... I think it's more plausible that the story is completely bogus or given a bit of spin to make it sound more intriguing (helps selling books about it), so I'd actually be less skeptical of someone debunking it (or demonstrating where spin was used to increase sales and the amount of attention drawn by it). ...

Was he declared dead for at least 1 full day, 24 hours? How would one even check up on that without simply taking Dr. Eby's word for it? On what evidence is your claim that there was no blood in his body (how long?) based? Why should anyone take you or Dr. Eby, if what you said about blood accurately reflects his claims, seriously? It sounds pretty bogus to me, not something to be taken serious, and not worth looking into. Worth reminding people of the credulous behaviour associated with such stories though, in spite of such obvious signals coming from such claims as the one about blood or the fact that he's selling a book about it. No matter how unwanted* or resistant some people are to such reminders. (*: not willing to put up with it as phrased at 2 Timothy 4:3,4)

credulous = "having or showing too great a readiness to believe things." (source: google)