Almost all your decisions are made by your unconscious mind.

Wryde One - Sounds like you have thought about it..........how do you account for dissociative states? What about hypnosis.......a hypnotized person can respond/interact as if conscious, but a post hypnotic suggestion to forget will leave the subject with no "conscious" recollection.

Personally, I believe that using the terms conscious and unconscious do not sufficiently account for the variances in human awareness - I prefer to think of it as a sliding scale that is determined by motivations, desires, activity(and type of activity), etc. Conscious is a convenient term for "awake" and unconscious is a convenient term for "asleep."

"Subconscious" is a convenient term. Imo, it attempts to describe the perceptions and thoughts that we do not consciously assimilate. Subliminals are a good example of this.......it has been shown that the human mind responds to perceptions that are not given literal attention. Subliminal actually means

Source Merriam Webster2 : existing or functioning below the threshold of consciousness

Here is a recent study on subliminals that show a human reaction......note the original news source is now unavailable, but the thread summary is an adequate representation.Subliminal Study with Scary Faces


Note this definition for "subconscious"

Source Merriam Webster: the mental activities just below the threshold of consciousness.

With the evidence of subliminal responses and this definition of subconscious, I would say that there is a subconscious aspect of any given mind. Even if it is a convenient term used to help express our "conscious" thoughts on a concept that we are attempting to understand.....

Edit for grammar and to include:
The reference to Evolutionary Psychology, however, sounds like an enjoyable point of research, ponderance. Thanks for the direction.


[edit on 8-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 8-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Wryde One - Sounds like you have thought about it..........how do you account for dissociative states? What about hypnosis.......a hypnotized person can respond/interact as if conscious, but a post hypnotic suggestion to forget will leave the subject with no "conscious" recollection.

I was forced to think about it initially, but found I actually liked pondering these 'human' questions, the rest as they say, is history. As to your questions about these states, I believe they are easily explained by their similarity to the dream state. Dreams, as far as we understand, are a somewhat random (but searching for meaning) comparison of disparate ideas with the intent of forming new, logically sound concepts and pictures.

When you have a dream about your grandmother cooking pancakes on the belly of a whale, your brain is trying to associate pancakes, grandmom, and ocean dwelling mammals. The purpose of this is to arrive at a greater understanding of life and presumably, increased survival chance upon waking.

The dream state is an unconscious state, because it does not rely on present sensory perception for its primary stimuli (sensory stimuli do worm their way into dreams, but it's an ancillary function, not a purposeful inclusion).

Hypnosis is a 'drowning' of the conscious mind, an immersion in the unconscious. The person is awake, and lucid in many respects, but they are working off the data set of their unconscious mind, not their sensory perceptions. This is a sort of sub, or below, conscious state, but it relies on artificial inducement of a dream state along with pre-programmed triggers to elicit conscious (or at least verbal) responses to questions by the hypnotist.

By that logic, people who talk in their sleep are active subconsciously, but I don't think that's right. More accurately, they are existing in BOTH the conscious and unconscious, not some in-between place. Do you understand what I mean?

An intersting tidbit, people with strong wills and/or high IQs are immune to hypnosis. They can have a great deal of fun at the hypnotist's expense.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Personally, I believe that using the terms conscious and unconscious do not sufficiently account for the variances in human awareness - I prefer to think of it as a sliding scale that is determined by motivations, desires, activity(and type of activity), etc. Conscious is a convenient term for "awake" and unconscious is a convenient term for "asleep."

I agree with you that there is a great deal of variety in the levels of human thought, however, I think this analogy is best suited to explaining those variances. If you are sitting by a pool, on dry land, you are conscious. If you are immersed in the water you are unconscious. If you are sitting on the side of the pool, half immersed, you are both, but...
You are in the pool and out of the pool, to varying degrees at the same time. You are both conscious and unconscious, but you cannot be 'between' the water and the land (in the sense of being in a third place, another plane of consciousness), you are present in both. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by MemoryShock
"Subconscious" is a convenient term. Imo, it attempts to describe the perceptions and thoughts that we do not consciously assimilate.

You'll be happy to hear that it's not just your opinion. The term was coined in the mid 1870's to describe behaviors that exhibited themselves but were not motivated by conscious thought. The term is not 'wrong' per se, it's just a little inaccurate. What the researcher was witnessing was unconscious desire manifested in conscious behavior, he use the prefix sub, when he should have used the prefix un (in my opinion). It was less of a mistake, more of a grammar choice I disagree with.

The difference is largely semantic (hence my earlier comment about being a nit-picker), between 'below' and 'not of'. I personally prefer 'not of' and many of those actively involved in studying the brain seem to agree with me. The term subconscious, like kudzu, has refused to die though. Perhaps there is good reason for that, and there is a level, as yet unexplored, that is neither conscious nor unconscious, but wholly seperate and exhibiting traits of both. I don't believe we've witnessed that phenomenon, as I said before in response to your points about hypnosis and out of body, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I have a bad habit of slipping into absolutes, despite the fact that I DESPISE absolutes, and war constantly agaisnt their integration into the mainstream lexicon. I think it's part of human nature, and our desire to simplify things, relate things (remember dreams?), and understand things.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Subliminals are a good example of this.......it has been shown that the human mind responds to perceptions that are not given literal attention. Subliminal actually means

Source Merriam Webster2 : existing or functioning below the threshold of consciousness

Here is a recent study on subliminals that show a human reaction......note the original news source is now unavailable, but the thread summary is an adequate representation.Subliminal Study with Scary Faces


Note this definition for "subconscious"

Source Merriam Webster: the mental activities just below the threshold of consciousness.

With the evidence of subliminal responses and this definition of subconscious, I would say that there is a subconscious aspect of any given mind. Even if it is a convenient term used to help express our "conscious" thoughts on a concept that we are attempting to understand.....

The evidence presented, in my opinion, proves one thing conclusively; the fact that the unconscious mind can use our sensory organs to gather inteligence unbeknownst to the conscious mind. That fact has been known for some time, human interactions clearly take place primarily on the unconscious level. Body language is only loosely perceived by the conscious mind in most adults, yet it is acutely perceived, acted upon, imitated, and remembered by the unconscious mind.

There is a book called BLINK. It is very good, its all about this.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I was forced to think about it initially, but found I actually liked pondering these 'human' questions

I have to ask whatever do you mean by 'human' questions?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Dreams, as far as we understand, are a somewhat random (but searching for meaning) comparison of disparate ideas with the intent of forming new, logically sound concepts and pictures.

I hope you'll appreciate my assuming the role of stickler, but dreams are much more than attempt to rationalize our respective realities. Dreams are based on experience, and yes, they are used by the organism to learn and consolidate associations. But the motivating force is "feeling." Think of it this way.......your body as a biological organism is comprised of a fairly complex co-existence of chemical reactions. These chemical reactions are what inclines the human organism to or from a stimulus, the inclination being, to varying degrees which I would say is determined by experience, either comfortable or uncomfortable. Even, human morals as a rough example of logic is contained within this paradigm, as a person will usually experience consequences to their actions before a rational explanation is formed. Sadly, in todays world, the "rational explanation" will usually be a mimicry of the beliefs/concepts of the giver of consequence(usually parents), good or bad.

So, for purpose of brevity, dreams are an assimilation of experience that help define an organism's response to the environment. The "logically sound concepts and pictures" would be part of what makes humans unique and really is only applicable to those who concentrate on their dreaming life; not many people really do.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne The purpose of this is to arrive at a greater understanding of life and presumably, increased survival chance upon waking.

I agree with the latter part of that statement, not the former. Ultimately, and this may be where scientology got it right, it is about survival.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Hypnosis is a 'drowning' of the conscious mind, an immersion in the unconscious. The person is awake, and lucid in many respects, but they are working off the data set of their unconscious mind, not their sensory perceptions.

I appreciate your comparison of hypnosis with dreams, but find them completely different for reasons you stated. Dreaming is unconscious because it is an interaction with recent experience, that is to say that the brain in this state of mind is concerned only with memory at this point. Physical reaction to stimulii at this point is decidely muddled and studies have recorded an overall decrease in autonomous biological functions.

Hypnosis, however, is not so much an immersion in the unconscious as it is an awareness of the unconscious. Hypnotized individuals are usually calm and do experience a sedated autonomous functioning, but the individual is primarily responsive to external stimulii. Ask a hypnotized subject a question and they answer. Suggest a hypnotized subject to complete a physical task and, if physically possible, it is done. Someone hypnotized can be made to ignore all but certain stimulii, or vice versa. The point is that hypnosis is a state of mind that is not unconscious and has debatable conscious properties. The difference between a conscious individual and a hypnotized one is pretty much the "immersion in the unconscious."

Their is a difference between dreams and hypnosis. Similaties are there, but I would expect that with my assertion that the whole of the percieving/interpreting human mind is defined better by its awareness and subsequent attenuations. The mind is not seperated between conscious/subconscious/subconscious; rather it interacts with reality through sensory perception fully and chooses what to focus on. It is already unified, imo, and really only needs excercise to be able to make fuzzy those distinctions of (un)conscious. Lucid dreaming is a great example of the "conscious" interaction with the "unconscious."

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
More accurately, they are existing in BOTH the conscious and unconscious, not some in-between place. Do you understand what I mean?

Actually, yes. I agree with this.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
An intersting tidbit, people with strong wills and/or high IQs are immune to hypnosis. They can have a great deal of fun at the hypnotist's expense.

Mostly true. Trauma has a funny way of bypassing the higher functions of an intelligent mind.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
"Subconscious" is a convenient term. Imo, it attempts to describe the perceptions and thoughts that we do not consciously assimilate.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
You'll be happy to hear that it's not just your opinion.

Kind of embarrassed here. My statement is actually a paraphrase of the definition. My point was that the term subconscious is used as a reference point in discussion. Though upon reflection, I believe it is a potentially valid distinction to make. "Conscious" has very specific connotation with literal awareness, and sometimes connotations carry more weight than actual definition. I agree that the point of arguement may be largly semantic, however, in dutiful conversation, the use of the term is a helpful guideline, as long as it is understood that the subconscious is not an entity apart from the conscious, but rather an aspect of an entity.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
as I said before in response to your points about hypnosis and out of body, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I want to clarify what I meant by dissociative, as I'm guessing that is what you are referencing as "out of body." Dissociative states , controlled, are accomplished by a pre-determined set of stimulii and can result in "personalities" that are seperated by amnesia of sorts. Multiple personality disorder, in that a person can interact in different ways without recollection. This condition wreaks havoc on the concept of conscious and unconscious.

For the record, I do not hold any real credence to out of body experiences and hold that they are in reality conscious interaction with imagination, if that makes sense.

Originally posted by WrydeOne
That fact has been known for some time, human interactions clearly take place primarily on the unconscious level. Body language is only loosely perceived by the conscious mind in most adults, yet it is acutely perceived, acted upon, imitated, and remembered by the unconscious mind.

What about when a person become conscious while he/she is dreaming (lucid dream)...Does he/she also become aware of the unconscious mind...or is it really the same mind?

Heres what I think:

When white light passes through a prism it breaks down or splits into at least 7 different colors...

Our soul personality, when entering physical reality, splits into different level of Consciousness...

[edit on 9-3-2005 by mwen]

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I have to ask whatever do you mean by 'human' questions?

Questions that are of interest to the entire human race, the answers to which could actually effect us all if stumbled upon. You know, the big questions. Why are we here, where are we going, where did we come from, etc., etc.. I didn't mean to make it sound as though I was alien.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I hope you'll appreciate my assuming the role of stickler, but dreams are much more than attempt to rationalize our respective realities. Dreams are based on experience, and yes, they are used by the organism to learn and consolidate associations. But the motivating force is "feeling."

Ahhh, you're a proponent of the 'Hedonist Man' theory of existence. I will respond to your post, but it's a long one so I need to eat some dinner first. In short order... Thanks for the great post though.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Questions that are of interest to the entire human race, the answers to which could actually effect us all if stumbled upon.

Thanks for the clarification.....I wasn't thinking aliens, I was thinking elitism,......

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Ahhh, you're a proponent of the 'Hedonist Man' theory of existence.

Yes and no. What I meant by "feeling" was the personal interpretation or logical representation of the chemical reactions that direct our responses......not necassarily man being driven by pleasure. The cessation of pain and fear is a fierce driving force as well.......in my life that is, so I would imagine a percentage of the population would follow along those lines as well. My rheotoric is admittedly insufficient in this case, so I'll work on my expression, but I hope I got the jist of my thought across.

I look at the human organism and how it interacts with its environment. I have complete disregsrd for the ego, and biases, they exist for sociological/pyschological expressions. In this respect, the "human as a machine" analogy, for me, goes a long way in detailing how we think/percieve/and interpret. It's "all senses, all the time." That's why I find awareness to be a valid and underestimated concept.......but I ramble...

About hypnosis, according to me everyone can be put into hypnosis, including people with a high iq. There are different ways and methods to do that. There are methods to confuse the conscious mind so much that it shuts down and the subconscious can be programmed. I've read about a cd recording that is able to do this. It's called the sphinx of imagination

Here you can see reviews of it.

And about dreaming. IMO dreaming is more than just processing memories and stimuli. It's also a source of ingenious ideas and insights. Different inventions and theories, like Einsteins theory of relativity, or Kekule with the C-ring come from dream states (which mean dreams of dreamlike imaginary from hypnagogic states).

IMO unconscious minds of all people are connected to each other and to a source. In fact it's possible to experience and influence peoples thoughts and feelings by going into a deeply relaxed state and visualize yourself stepping into that person and feeling yourself as being that person. I know it's possible because I've done it before. You can actually step into an animal in your during a meditation, and actually "become" that animal.

Here's a way how to do that. It's called "borrowed genius"

Here is a google search about borrowed genius

It's also known as "putting on heads" "wafing" "stepping into a person" etc...


[edit on 10-3-2005 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by TheBandit795

And about dreaming. IMO dreaming is more than just processing memories and stimuli. It's also a source of ingenious ideas and insights.

IMO unconscious minds of all people are connected to each other and to a source. In fact it's possible to experience and influence peoples thoughts and feelings by going into a deeply relaxed state and visualize yourself stepping into that person and feeling yourself as being that person. I know it's possible because I've done it before. You can actually step into an animal in your during a meditation, and actually "become" that animal.

Wonderful. Excellent. I agree absolutely.

Re: 'Stepping into animals.' ...Don't know how old you are, but I have noticed a big difference in the expeience over the past 30-40 years. ...The sheer joy of sensual life and physical power is changed. ...?


.

Have you done it before, soficrow?

Originally posted by TheBandit795
About hypnosis, according to me everyone can be put into hypnosis,

Ideally, you should be of stable mind so you don't inadvertently incorporate what you didn't intend.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
And about dreaming. IMO dreaming is more than just processing memories and stimuli. It's also a source of ingenious ideas and insights.

Ain't that the truth.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
You can actually step into an animal in your during a meditation, and actually "become" that animal.

Duuuuuuuuuuuude!

Originally posted by TheBandit795
It's also known as "putting on heads" "wafing" "stepping into a person" etc...

Again. Duuuuuuuuuuuude!

I personally know it's not necessary to step into any being to know what they're about.

Curiousity can kill the cat sen5e. Have you ever heard about the detoxification method used by remote viewers?

I've read excerpts of people who become emotionally scarred from entering a person's psyche or traumatic event from the past.

Personally, I can sense a person's persona or event without being infected by it. I call what I'm doing RV without entering into the eye of the storm so to speak. And like I said, it's both visual & empathic without the consequences that some people speak of.

On occasion though, I am unable to RV for some reason (perhaps due to an internal protective mechanism kicking in). In this case, I can sometimes get the answers I'm seeking in dreams.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
About hypnosis, according to me everyone can be put into hypnosis, including people with a high iq. There are different ways and methods to do that.

I concur.....though I have what would probably be regarded as an above average I.Q., my mini-profile is accurate, which by my account, also debunks the "can't be hypnotized against your wishes" myth......

Originally posted by TheBandit795
And about dreaming. IMO dreaming is more than just processing memories and stimuli. It's also a source of ingenious ideas and insights.

I agree, but with a stipulation...and that is the reason dreams evolved as a nightly process is because of the need to "download" recent experience into long-term memory.......MRI's taken of a REM sleeper showed activity in the hippocampus area which has been associated with memory. I say the need to download recent experience as the basis for dreams because animals have been to dream as well, by all accounts of our ability to interpret their physical actions when they sleep, i.e. the rapid eye movement phenomona is consistent in mammals.

The source of ingenius ideas and insights is inherent in the human mind, the conscious and unconscious.......phases where "these two" interact more readily, like lucid dreaming and the moments of waking up from a slumber, are more likely to produce insights because of the interaction, where usual conscious activity is usually more concerned with accomplishing the day to day routines. I like the idea of image streaming and my first impression is that it is a conscious exercise to access the unconscious.......a conscious exercise to access all the information stored in your brain but not given usual attention.
I will be experimenting more with image streaming; my job is tedious and boring allowing for my mind to wander...........

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Have you done it before, soficrow?

Yes. I used to do it a lot more than now tho. ...Started when I was a kid. ...One time, can't remember how old I was:

It was my job to bring in the cows for milking every morning. They bedded down in a pasture about 1 mile from the barn, on the other side of a forest/bush. We didn't have horses so I ran. I would follow the cow paths and "pretend" I was an animal, usually a deer or a wolf. I could "become" the animal - and feel the difference in gait and in the wind, It was always wonderful.

...One dark morning, I had a sense of danger while running through the bush as a deer so I switched to being a wolf - which was safe. When I got to the herd, I was still in wolf mode - the cattle were circled - and the bull charged me. A first. Never happened before. ...Thing is, I've always been great with animals - almost instant rapport with any kind. And that bull KNEW me. He shouldn't have charged. ...I snapped back into myself and managed to calm him. But it took a LOT of effort. He was really spooked.

IMO - There probably was a wolf pack around that spooked the cattle - but I think I became a wolf in spirit. It likely kept me safe from the real wolves when I was running through the bush alone and then, threatened the cows when I approached them without shifting back.


...I have 'travelled' in several different animals and birds - and it always was a source of very great strength to me. ...Also, I used to have a bear friend bring me plants when I was sick (and undiagnosed). I would draw pictures of the plants when I 'came to' and then find out what they were and use them. ...I was later diagnosed with FMD in one of my kidneys, which causes infarctions (shut downs). ...The plants turned out to be exactly what Eastern medicine would have prescribed.

Ima believa.


.

Soficrow,

I think that this is where the legends of werewolves and shapeshifters came from.

Memory Shock

Your avatar is seriously kewl - BUT - it prevents me from reading your posts. I like your work, thinking, writing, but just cannot read you cuz that flashing light
hurts my eyes and my brain.


.

Great topic!

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The person is awake, and lucid in many respects, but they are working off the data set of their unconscious mind, not their sensory perceptions.

and

You are both conscious and unconscious, but you cannot be 'between' the water and the land (in the sense of being in a third place, another plane of consciousness), you are present in both. Does that make sense?

These points make a lot of sense to me. I've pondered this quite often and have come to the conclusion that the "unconscious" mind does indeed do most of the work, with the conscious mind acting as a sort of umpire, judge or advisor when required. Our subconscious will spot a situation and draw it to our conscious mind if it thinks it's important.

If nothing requires attention, the subconscious throws up some previous "queries", issues that it hasn't reached a satisfactory conclusion about, to the consciousness for some hopefully helpful input. Those are the times when we are just "thinking about stuff".

I think consciousness is simply another function of the brain, along with things like sensory analysis, memory, emotion, etc. We can even imagine these functions as different organs of the body. All interlinked, interdependant, and running at the same time, to a greater or lesser extent.

Taking this theory a little further, it's reasonable to assume that, like an organ, each brain "function" is made up of small functions.... the subconsious mind may itself have it's own set of sub functions.. it's own memory, sensory perception etc...


Just my thoughts anyway.. (subconscious or otherwise!)

[edit on 10/3/05 by muppet]

[edit on 10/3/05 by muppet]

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Soficrow,

I think that this is where the legends of werewolves and shapeshifters came from.

I wonder. Makes sense to me. ...Most of my life I just thought I had an "active imagination" - used to get in trouble all the time for 'daydreaming' - but now, I'm certain it's about connecting to - or through- that supra-consciousness (or whatever the right term may be).



.

Originally posted by sen5e
I've read excerpts of people who become emotionally scarred from entering a person's psyche or traumatic event from the past.

Personally, I can sense a person's persona or event without being infected by it. I call what I'm doing RV without entering into the eye of the storm so to speak. And like I said, it's both visual & empathic without the consequences that some people speak of.

I agree. I've recently read about a remote viewer who had Pablo Escobar as a target. He needed to detox, because he actually saw the logicl and the necessity to traffick drugs. He had to identify which thoughts where his own and which were not and discard the ones that were not.

It's fascinating stuff, and you can find out the deepest secrets and feelings of any person (even deceased people). It's independant from time, so it doesn't matter if the target is alive or not. Nobody has a mental firewall.