Almost all your decisions are made by your unconscious mind.

Go for it!!! It will be a rewarding experience. I've done it from time to time.

Did you know human beings are (to my knowledge) the only macrofauna on the planet that consume bitter foods? All other animals (vertebrates at least) avoid bitterness at all costs. Where am I going with this? I don't know...



Hmmmm... I'm not sure I understand what you're saying with this sentence. Do you mean to say that our morals are based on logic because they are used by our conscious mind to avoid uncomfortable situations?



Many animals dream, but it seems that they dream for a slightly different reason, practice (even things like muscle and tendon excercise to produce . They bone up on hunting skills and communication skills during dreams, or so it appears based on their physiological response and brain activity. Cats dream of chasing mice, dogs dream of chasing geese, mice dream of running mazes, at least as far as I can tell.

You're certainly right, most people don't practice dreaming like they should. I take great pleasure in lucid dreaming, because it makes sleep less of a 'waste' of time. I live two lives (three if you count the internet) to the fullest, and most people don't even fully explore one. It is a shame, and I pity people who don't take advantage of this incredible gift we have.

I doubt that logic has a place in inhuman dreams, but by the same token, most people fail to grasp even the most basic precepts of logic. I think the threshold for complex thinking is something like 110 IQ, give or take a dime. That means approximately three quarters of Americans, and presumably the world, live a life more closely resembling that of a dog than a scholar. Scary huh?



Well, survival is the end run, but there are certain window dressings applied to that theme by our unconscious mind to make it more palatable to our consciousness. It seems more and more, to me at least, that our brain has a vested interest in fooling our consciousness into patterns of morality, redundant 'decision making', and idea construction. These tendencies serve our survival, but in some cases are repugnant to our 'human' side.

For example, infanticide is a necessary survival tool for many animal groups, and it has appeared in nearly every human culture at one time or another. There is no moral leeway for child murder, but evolutionarily speaking it is sometimes necessary. Our mind is a wonderful tool for abstract thinking, but sometimes it can be a burden, as antiquated, seemingly arbitrary constructs of morality interfere with the cold, hard, decision making our brain has to do.





So you would liken hypnosis (using my pool analogy) more to staring into the pool than actually swimming in it? Dreams are swimming, hypnosis is gazing?

Here's some stuff to consider (I hope this is right); dreams rely almost entirely on declarative memory, which is recorded in the cerebral cortex. The hippocampus is a way point on the journey memory makes, and seems to be the 'landscape' of dreams and hypnosis.

Dreams are rarely remembered in most cases because the new experiences they create (based on long term memory but evidenced in short term memory) are not in place long enough to permanently 'strengthen' the synapses that produced them. In order to make a memory permanent, proteins must be synthesized in the brain immediately, this has been studied extensively in lab animals forced to remember complex procedures.

Brain time is measured in nanoseconds, and dreaming is infamously erratic, often jumping from concept to concept with no warning, mingling, trashing, and renewing many disparate concepts over the course of only a second or so 'real time.' Short term memory lasts minutes or hours, but little more, and dreams are the same. Hypnosis however can be remembered in every detail in most cases, permanently, with a single suggestion on the part of the hypnotist - or it can all be forgotten. I am very curious as to why this is.



This is certainly true, the brain does perceive the world in a unified fashion. Only our understanding is limited by a compartmentalization effect of transitory memory and the heirarchy of stimulus (sight, touche, sound, smell, taste, in that order IMO). As I said in my last post, I believe this is an evolutionary mechanism to prevent the conscious 'moral' mind from interfering with necessary biolgical or behavioral functions.



This is interesting, I didn't know we were talking about components of the conscious mind, rather than a component similar to the conscious mind (in the sense of being separate). I think I would agree, hesitantly IF there is a subconscious that can be defined, I would have to agree that it would rest in the conscious mind, as opposed to the instinctual component. This is a sort of superego role you're attributing to it, right? Like a moderator between the conscious and unconscious, but firmly rooted in the 'awareness' if not 'senses' of the conscious mind? Am I understanding your position correctly, or am I agreeing with myself again? I have a habit of doing that.



Okay, I understand what you mean now. MPD raises an interesting question, which is, do multiple consciousnesses rely on the same unconscious subset? I think the answer is yes, and that would mean that perhaps we've found an excellent role for the word subconscious. Perhaps human beings have evolved behavior sets, and sometimes multiple ones are present in the same mind (usually as a result of life threatening trauma such as drowning).

It would make sense from an evolutionary standpoint, and organism that is threatened will seek to change its programming to adapt to the new threats. For example, abused children often develop a 'tough' persona in response to the abuse, meanwhile their 'real' (perhaps initial would be a better word) consciousness is subsumed temporarily or permanently. That to me looks like software overwriting itself for the purpose of inceasing survivability.

Perhaps hypnosis (thanks RANT for some really interesting information) is the skeleton key to the 'uber-unconscious.' The overmind (settle down starcraft fans ) that decides which behavior set to adopt or modify based on environmental factors. The purpose of compartmentalization in MPD sufferers seems to be for the same reason as compartmentalization between conscious and unconscious, to preserve the integrity of each individual 'set' for the purpose of testing against evolution. What an interesting thought, MPD might be an evolved response to a complicated society or environment requiring many different behavior sets.



It makes perfect sense and I agree. The only chink in that armor might be reports that lend credence to remote viewing (accounts such as "I saw him putting the clothes in the dryer, even though I was in the garage, I asked him later and sure enough, that's what he was doing when I 'saw' him doing it.")

I have heard first hand accounts from one of my in-laws and I believe his account. He hypnotized himself by staring at a nail on the ceiling, and then traveled out of the room to spy on his wife who was hanging clothes on the line in the backyard. He apparently later told her the order in which she hung up the clothes, and was correct in his 'vision.'

I don't think incidents like that can be explained away as predicting the future based on the past, or reasonable extrapolation. There must be an as yet undiscovered mechanism for receiving information through the cerebral cortex (this may in turn shed some light on dreams, RV (remote viewing), and telepathy.

The sixth sense, rooted in a cavity just beneath the forehead, seems capable of transmitting and receiving electrical or subsonic signals through solid bone and across great distances. Many other animals are in possession of similar apparatus, and while we don't know too much about the functions of these organs, their effects on sensory accuity can't be denied.

Trepanation is a bit extreme, but the benefits are often heralded as miraculous. I would love to know more about the relationship between trepanation and hypnosis, as I don't believe any studies have been done to that end.




It certainly is a wake up call for anybody who wasn't aware. You figure your mind is your own and your behavior is determined by your mind..but the observable behaviors indicate just the opposite. The sheer magnitude of our predictability (as a general rule) is astonishing. I love social engineering for this reason, because one can actually plan interactions and direct their course before they even occur. It's dangerous magic though..voodoo of the highest order.



Sure, take the story literally, see how far that increases your understanding. Seriously though, I'm of the opinion that ancient stories represented in more than one culture are knowledge passed down from a much wiser culture for our benefit. We must simply (not so simple) decode the parable to find the meaning. Like an onion, there are layers of meaning to every good story.

Somehow I think Icarus would have fared no better with plasticene or polymer wing-glue.

I said..

I thought I was the only one. Although, some avatars hurt worse than Memory's

I just had to comment, your experiences sound very cool. I envy you your powers.


[edit on 10-3-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

Bandit
You posted some really interesting stuff, I would applaud you incessantly if I could, just for that information you provided to others with your link on Borrowed Genius.

Have you ever heard of the Smoking Mirror? The Chambala, or Jaguar Men?

What you're talking about, with borrowing heads, is actually quite similar to the miracle of mind over matter passed down from generation to generation. I love talking about the power of the mind, because it really does appear to be almost limitless. Much of the potency of the mind is lost to modern man, subdued and dulled by our lifestyles and petty foolish desire.

Most of the power of the Temple Monks, the guardians of wisdom, came from their understanding of the secrets they guarded, their physical training was more designed to instill discipline than harden muscles. When a warrior priest makes war, he doesn't simply posture and pose, he becomes the animal his style takes its name from. Eagle Claw and Snake styles are two that come to mind, they embody the speed and ferocity of their namesakes, and some truly remarkable feats were accomplished using this sort of embodied animism.

The wearing of skins, eating of organs, and mimicry of behaviors is a start..but perception is the key, in combination with faith, or belief if you prefer. If you truly believe you can move mountains, there is nothing to stop you.

The ancients knew of this power, they encoded the secrets for reality manipulation in their stories and legends. History is bursting with examples of men remaking the world with willpower, men changing the universe, men ascending to a heightened state of universal awareness wherein anything conceivable is possible.

Unfortunately, there are some real kooks and nutjobs, false prophets and money grubbing 'mesiahs' perpetually active trying to abuse this power for their own selfish aims. The universe seems intent on defeating their schemes, and yet, when one wishes for something that is in sync with the universal plan that wish has a very high chance for success. Is it possible that the universe has a morality of sorts, a governing perception that overrules our considerable power?

Do you have any background in martial arts or metaphysics?

I think it's my turn to fetch for supper........you have provided much food for thought.......

[edit on 10-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

Anyone can do these things. ...Follow some of the links that Bandit posted, there's some good stuff there. And I'm not sure if I said this before, but the best advice I ever had came from Idries Shah:

"If you want to increase your powers, first increase your need."


...If you think about that, you will see that it's true - and it tells you exactly how to go about doing it.


.

I have a habit of exchanging novels with members of ATS.

Sorry if my wording is a little convoluted at times, I do try to make my points as quickly as possible. Enjoy your supper.

I usually discuss this topic lightly, at a surface level. This is one of the more in depth, technical conversations I've had on the subject. It's probably more valuable in the long run, but it is a pain for the reader. Ah well, enjoy!

Sofi
I loved your story about running as an animal. I too experienced something similar, to the point I could almost feel my muscles change in structure. It was so disconcerting I lost my concentration and the feeling faded. Then I was just a half-naked, stoned idiot lost in the woods.

As far as my mind goes, I've always been me (to the best of my knowledge), but I have sought to embody my totem in the physical and spiritual sense. Bear and Raven are the ones I indentify most with, moreso bear for his solitary, contemplative existence, Raven for the way his eyes perceive the world, and for his natural inteligence. The medicine your bear friend brought did you good huh? I wonder how much of that was placebo effect and how much was chemical? Whether you getting better was placebo or not, bears KNOW medicine, that's for sure.

You know what always bothered me though? The eastern ways had little contact with bears, and so they failed to develop a fighting style for bear like they did for the others (eagle, snake, monkey, etc.). I had to develop my own style for lack of an already existing structure. I called it Shattering Bear, and maybe in another 30 years I'll have refined it to the point I can actually accept students.

I noticed that. It's charming. Really. And always good for at least one laugh out loud.








...One of my favorite experiences is a 'visualization' that's totally sensual and full body (muscle changes, sense of body, vision, hearing, smell). Have been doing it at will for maybe 30 years.

The trigger is to do the wolf thing, running along a cliff "iron muscles flex and bend in rythmns from the birth of time" - then the cliff ends and I'm into the air - a hawk or an eagle - then into the water and become ...? not sure "a song of coiled light" maybe a dolphin or a killer whale. Can't tell at all because the vision is so different. But definitely not a blue or other huge whale.

Have written about it but won't share it here cuz I want to retain copyright.







IMO - it was real. ...I have a disease called fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD) - and I AM an expert on it. Ask anyone here.

...It can be life threatening - and is usually diagnosed in autopsy. Done the tunnels and the white light more than once. ...Trust me - hat bear knew his stuff.








Let me know when you set up your dojo.


.

I could make the same apology.



Hardly a pain.....in fact, this conversation is one of the most interesting I've had on ATS precisely for the technicalities.......I'm having to actually make a conscious( ) effort at responding,.. it doesn't happen often.




[edit on 10-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

Here's another, one of my favorites:
--Gene Oliver

Actually, I have begun my search for knowledge. B.O.T.A.

wakey wakey, rise and shine!

Yes it was once taught in schools, it was called religion, and civility, and values. Fear of a "higher" power other than mankind.

TheBandit795, thanks for the link, very interesting article.

It points out something I have come to believe in recent years: man is not a ratiolal animal, but is a rationalizing one. IE people make decisions based on unconscious psychological needs and then come up with reasons for them, rather than looking at the facts and comng up with answers based on logical deduction.

The best defense against this is not some external unifying order IMHO (blind obedience is just as bad as blind selfishness), but rigorous self-criticism and a willingness to examine and evaluate one's own motivations.

From what I have observed, that seems to be true. I think I am the exception. Whenever I notice I want something, I analyze carefully why I want it, and often over-rule myself with logic (more than most people). Sometimes I feel a little less human, because I tend to suppress emotion whenever possible (except compassion, but I have a logical rationale for that).

I'm not sure if I have ever loved or hated (to any discernable level), or even what they would feel like (kinda glad too). I've only had compassion or gotten irritated. I do get happy or sad though, but if I want to buy something or do something that I think will make me happy, I fully calculate the amount of happy I will get out of it long term, and at what cost. I tend to prioritize my actions just like if I was playing the sims, consciosly manipulating my meters, like I was playing myself in the Sims maybe.

You will even see me sit there and analyze why I would want to buy name brand instead of a cheaper off brand, and whether the effect would be worth the price difference. It's kind funny to think about how much thought I put into something as simple as ordering a pizza. Is it cost effective, is there something that will make me just as happy, why do I want to do this, will it still be good the next day, how could I better put the money to use, how could someone else put the money better to use, etc. (and no I'm not broke, actually... having these thoughts saves a ton of money)

I think emotion is a form of insanity, but unfortunately the whole human race is affected.




[edit on 11-3-2005 by freeb]

I do find myself having a good understanding of how people work by analyzing my own actions. I find myself having an easy time manipulating people just by understanding their needs and how this affects people's thought processes. I don't do it too often, because I enjoy people doing things voluntarily, but I don't mind helping them along here and there.

Admittedly, sometimes I do something just to see how they'll respond, but I'm pretty much to the point where I don't need to. I can tell you just by looking at them, what they want from life and what their motivations are. Actually, its kinda boring to know so much ahead of time.

[edit on 11-3-2005 by freeb]

There is no real defense, religion does nothing but give the "manipulator" another means to attack you.
It was once forced down the throats of kids in school but now your free to pick what ever one you want or none at all....

Ideologies and morals are still forced down people's throats. Whether the new ones are better are up to you to decide.

Your direction would clarify how I would respond.......

I said:


I was trying to state that what humans call emotion are a result of the chemical reactions in our bodies. Certain hormones get released in response to situations that the body interprets as fight or flight and all the ponts on the spectrum in between. Certain social situations cause discomfort, some the opposite. How are these distinctions made? In part due to the evolved part of our unconscious that has "learned" what some social cues mean and in part to the immediate experiences of the individual. Dreams incorporate the memory of hormonal reaction to situations as well as the visual, tactile,etc. aspects. The search for meaning is secondary, as it is most likely unique to humanity, and therefore would have had less time for evolution.......we as a species are still evolving a conscious interpretation of reality.....I believe you have already stated/implied that our subconscious is far more evolved than the conscious.



Nope. I was trying to say that the assimilation of a moral standard at an early age is usually the result of good/bad reinforcement. The child is punished or rewarded for its behaviour and will usually begin to anticipate consequences on a physical level. This has been shown in studies where an authority figure would leave the child alone with temptation and a choice. "Tells" like looking around in an already established empty room, etc. The "logical" explanation for this behaviour usually forms a bit later when cognition is accelerated. As this relates to dreams....the chicken came after the egg, or the rational thoughts are secondary(but by no means less important or unpronounced) to the primary biological inclinations.




Right. But why is this.....Because the animal evolved physical charachteristics to sate it's basic instincts........I like to think of cats and their remarkable agility and overall svelte nature. They sleep quite a bit and my guess is that their dreams consist of their navigation of their environment because they ain't known to be clumsy. To provide a comparison, dogs are social creatures that constantly attenuate to their masters for direction......the dog wagging its tail in its sleep could be dreaming of happy thoughts such as being rewarded with a scratch behind the ear. Of course these are my own ruminations and I can't substantiate it, but it sounds logical to me.



I think it has alot to do with the propagation of religion and pop culture and the lack of any serious consideration. I find it suspicious that dreams, a nightly ritual that happens to everyone, is often relagated to the mystic or paranormal sections that noone takes seriously. Hhhhmmmm.......




Yes, a scary thought indeed. I have noticed some people like this in my life and have tormented myself with how to "fix it." I haven't been able to accomplish arrogance on that level, and probably won't. Instead, I reinforce whatever it is that is enjoyable and seek other outlets.....a note though....I have come across reports stating that IQ is not static. Reflection on one's life and memories, and I mean true reflection with more than passable attempts at objectivity, can resolve redundant associations and allow for mental expansion. Not to sure though......




That is false. Evolution, a large scale process, does not benefit from child murder. Evolution is based on the reproduction of genetic material. Biological benefits get passed on because the parent was desirable in some way. A child cannot pass on genetic material. A massive offing of children does not guarantee the elimination of a specific trait because the genes never fully expressed themselves. The only actual impact of infanticide is a social/moral complication. Infanticide is not required by evolution.




This is true. But morality as a general concept is more valid in populations and the working class. It is a construct of social engineering that has evolved into many associations and manifestations(religion, politics, even fad diets. "Is it right for me to eat this twinkie?").
However, the burden in my opinion is only carried by those who are even aware of the dichotomy of logic and emotion as applicable to their decision making skills.......I think it is safe to say that many people aren't aware because society is designed to prevent that.....another thread or two for that subject.........



Long-term potentiation. A process that sees a dendrite increase in surface area the more it's associated thought/experience/perception is used. In short term memory, is short term because the memory isn't expanded on, or given attention, obviously. But that doesn't mean the dendrite goes away, nor does the axon. These are biological creations in response to an experience/thought/perseption and don't disappear because of its inactivity.......I don't exercise my bicep often, but it's still there. Same with neurons and their functional tidbits.

Now remember all neurons are connected. If you think about what you did an hour ago and what happened before it and so on and so forth, you could trace your way back to memories that are on their way to inactivity. Hypnosis just speeds this process up to allow you to remember what happened 20 years ago on such and such......

Actually, one of my curiosities has to do with neurogenisis and whether or not the new neurons come to play with a DNA representaion of memory that translates into "the memory" of the association. Can/do associations pass/be saved from the effects of apoptosis? Maybe a study on hypnosis and the suggestibility of long-term memory on the elderly/ mild Alzheimers could give a weak indication.......



No, not a type of superego. Freud was a loon......an "aspect of an entity" in that its role is to maintain awareness while the conscious interacts with the organism's direct stimulii. The unconscious is there to maintain memory and subsequent updates.

Remeber, I dislike all these terms......I'm still trying to word out my expression of the mind as aspects of awareness. I'm really working with the idea of one mind and it's allocation of focus/awarenes; levels of alertness/responsiveness.......



I have to disagree with this statement. I don't think there is a compartmentalization between the conscious and unconscious. I cite the whole of humanity as evidence.....as varied as physical features apparent in the individual, so is the variance of expression. Some people repeat what they hear often, some people attempt to explain things using a wide range of datapoints, and so on. The level of expression, I believe, is an indicator on how integrated the conscious is with the unconscious. Someone who can express a similar sentiment in many different ways probably remembers many similar experiences, or is readily able to recall similar experiances. So you have varying levels of integration all throughout society......I'm fairly certain, by my own discernments and logical rational, that photographic memory is/can be a learned trait.........

That isn't to say that I disagree with the compartmentilization reality of MPD.....definetely an interesting thought as I agree with you in that the different "sets" draw from the same unconscious.....it would have to. But, why don't these "sets" communicate?



I've had my own bouts with this subject matter and suffice to say I agree with your summations.....although I'm really, really, very skeptical about trepanation. I don't write it off completely because I haven't experienced it.



To read the story of Icarus is to read an advocation for tunnel vision. I agree that the old stories are rich in info beyond their "pseudo-read between the lines morals", but my experience tells me that a story told over and over is meant for its social application....I'm still curious why you brought the reference into play to begin with.....




I meant to say unconscious.......that would make the last 10 words applicable.



Fascinating stuff.......could you forward me to a site where this may reside?



Oops again......what a difference two letters make. *Sigh*



This type of control can be successfully exerted over a hypnotized subject, even in the average man. Not sure what that indicates.....



The assertion you made was with regard to conscious influence over unconscious.....that would suggest a control exerted at will and for reason. Nothing their precludes the maintenace of the function by the unconscious.



I don't usually post novels so that should give you an inkling of the interest I have regarding thiis subject. Very interesting indeed.......

You raised some interesting points, in the spirit of brevity, I'm just going to contest the contentious ones. heh



heh You've never met my cat. His name is Tiger Koenig (King Tiger), but I call him BucketHead because he runs into so many things, including me.



I don't know if IQ increases or not, I've been told mostly it doesn't. I know for a fact however, wisdom grows, and decision making ability grows. They grow at different speeds in different people, but generaly the contemplative do better than reactionaries. Reactionaries are more in touch with their inner reptile, contemplative people are more in touch with their inner monkey, the little opposable-thumbed problem solver, trying to get the termites out of the mound...






I disagree. Evolution is a large scale process, but it would nothing with remarkable individuals. You're right it is about genetic material, and it is about biological benefits of the parents, but it is also about the traits of the children. If the animals perceive their children as sub-par or a detriment to the gene pool, they'll kill them.

Some island tribes used to crush their baby's heads with rocks if they were born with birthmarks. Obviously, there was no morality involved. Some of it was societal stigma, probably based on some sort of idea of eugenics.

The impact of infanticide can mean the difference between life or death for a species. For example, if animals didn't kill their offspring during food shortages, the animals wouldn't live long enough to breed again, it would be the end of the group. In isolated, rare groups, hovering on the edge of extinction, this could mean the end.

The birds off the coast of Scotland don't breed when there is not enough to eat, to do so would mean suicide. I also never said anything about killing off large groups. I was talking about parents willfully selecting the weakest for murder, which is what animals often do. Obviously this behavior is completely diametrically opposed to morality, but that's the point I'm trying to make. Evolution and morality are anathema to each other.


[

Aint that the truth? Ignorance is bliss, and an ignorant society is a self destructive society, and an ignorant society is a profitable society for those at the top of the pyramid.



Your muscles atrophy because of disuse, so do brain connections. They aren't physically 'grown' they're activated with energy, the energy draws the protein factories, which churn out receptors that bind to the receptor. The increased receptor surface area intensifies the thought, allows a greater transmission of chemical energy. Memorizing something is as easy as repeating it over and over, for an extended period time. The more receptors on the neuron the more time it will spend inactive before becoming erased, if you have brief fleeting thought it's unlikely you'll rememeber it the next day.



To my knowledge all neurons are not connected to each other explicity. Each neuron is connected to between 10000 and 100000 other neurons. Implicity you could follow the train all around the brain, daisy chain, is that what you meant?



There has been some recent interesting information, in the journals, linking mis-folded proteins very similar to the ones that cause mad cow, being responsible for memory creation. Where that new research will take us who knows...



They have been recorded to, usually to threaten or bully a weaker consciousness. They usually don't mix, probably to retain their integrity for the purposes of the experiment. If the unconscious is trying different models, it needs to know how they react to the world indipendently so if it finds the 'right' one it can discard the others without allowing their flaws to leak over into the chosen identity.



Suffice to say, I disagree that is an advocation of tunnel vision. I would never encourage tunnel vision, it's anathema to logic, which is the principle I hold most dear. But a good story is one that bends to the interpretation of the listener, so I suppose you should be encouraged to see it any way it strikes you. That being said allow me to meddle with your consciousness...

I like the story for its value arguing caution in the face of youthful zeal. I believe mankind teeters on the brink of discovery in so many areas, the next millenium could be truly amazing in the scope of our achievments..or it could be disasterous. Hypnosis, if it leads to a greater understanding of the power of the mind, could turn into an Icarus metaphor. Also, I was thinking about it the other day in regards to zero point energy, an idea with incredible potential, to either change our society for the better or wipe our planet, and perhaps our whole universe, out of existence.

I agree that stories are often the tools of social engineers, but remember, not all the engineers are out for their own gain. Some of them are actually looking out for humanities best interests, and have been since the beginning of inteligence...



I heard about the experiment through the February issue of Scientific American.