Almost all your decisions are made by your unconscious mind.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I like the idea of image streaming and my first impression is that it is a conscious exercise to access the unconscious.......a conscious exercise to access all the information stored in your brain but not given usual attention.
I will be experimenting more with image streaming; my job is tedious and boring allowing for my mind to wander...........

Go for it!!! It will be a rewarding experience. I've done it from time to time.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Think of it this way.......your body as a biological organism is comprised of a fairly complex co-existence of chemical reactions. These chemical reactions are what inclines the human organism to or from a stimulus, the inclination being, to varying degrees which I would say is determined by experience, either comfortable or uncomfortable.

Did you know human beings are (to my knowledge) the only macrofauna on the planet that consume bitter foods? All other animals (vertebrates at least) avoid bitterness at all costs. Where am I going with this? I don't know...

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Even, human morals as a rough example of logic is contained within this paradigm, as a person will usually experience consequences to their actions before a rational explanation is formed.

Hmmmm... I'm not sure I understand what you're saying with this sentence. Do you mean to say that our morals are based on logic because they are used by our conscious mind to avoid uncomfortable situations?

Originally posted by MemoryShock
So, for purpose of brevity, dreams are an assimilation of experience that help define an organism's response to the environment. The "logically sound concepts and pictures" would be part of what makes humans unique and really is only applicable to those who concentrate on their dreaming life; not many people really do.

Many animals dream, but it seems that they dream for a slightly different reason, practice (even things like muscle and tendon excercise to produce . They bone up on hunting skills and communication skills during dreams, or so it appears based on their physiological response and brain activity. Cats dream of chasing mice, dogs dream of chasing geese, mice dream of running mazes, at least as far as I can tell.

You're certainly right, most people don't practice dreaming like they should. I take great pleasure in lucid dreaming, because it makes sleep less of a 'waste' of time. I live two lives (three if you count the internet) to the fullest, and most people don't even fully explore one. It is a shame, and I pity people who don't take advantage of this incredible gift we have.

I doubt that logic has a place in inhuman dreams, but by the same token, most people fail to grasp even the most basic precepts of logic. I think the threshold for complex thinking is something like 110 IQ, give or take a dime. That means approximately three quarters of Americans, and presumably the world, live a life more closely resembling that of a dog than a scholar. Scary huh?

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Ultimately, and this may be where scientology got it right, it is about survival.

Well, survival is the end run, but there are certain window dressings applied to that theme by our unconscious mind to make it more palatable to our consciousness. It seems more and more, to me at least, that our brain has a vested interest in fooling our consciousness into patterns of morality, redundant 'decision making', and idea construction. These tendencies serve our survival, but in some cases are repugnant to our 'human' side.

For example, infanticide is a necessary survival tool for many animal groups, and it has appeared in nearly every human culture at one time or another. There is no moral leeway for child murder, but evolutionarily speaking it is sometimes necessary. Our mind is a wonderful tool for abstract thinking, but sometimes it can be a burden, as antiquated, seemingly arbitrary constructs of morality interfere with the cold, hard, decision making our brain has to do.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Hypnosis is a 'drowning' of the conscious mind, an immersion in the unconscious. The person is awake, and lucid in many respects, but they are working off the data set of their unconscious mind, not their sensory perceptions.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Hypnosis, however, is not so much an immersion in the unconscious as it is an awareness of the unconscious. Hypnotized individuals are usually calm and do experience a sedated autonomous functioning, but the individual is primarily responsive to external stimulii. Ask a hypnotized subject a question and they answer. Suggest a hypnotized subject to complete a physical task and, if physically possible, it is done. Someone hypnotized can be made to ignore all but certain stimulii, or vice versa. The point is that hypnosis is a state of mind that is not unconscious and has debatable conscious properties. The difference between a conscious individual and a hypnotized one is pretty much the "immersion in the unconscious."

So you would liken hypnosis (using my pool analogy) more to staring into the pool than actually swimming in it? Dreams are swimming, hypnosis is gazing?

Here's some stuff to consider (I hope this is right); dreams rely almost entirely on declarative memory, which is recorded in the cerebral cortex. The hippocampus is a way point on the journey memory makes, and seems to be the 'landscape' of dreams and hypnosis.

Dreams are rarely remembered in most cases because the new experiences they create (based on long term memory but evidenced in short term memory) are not in place long enough to permanently 'strengthen' the synapses that produced them. In order to make a memory permanent, proteins must be synthesized in the brain immediately, this has been studied extensively in lab animals forced to remember complex procedures.

Brain time is measured in nanoseconds, and dreaming is infamously erratic, often jumping from concept to concept with no warning, mingling, trashing, and renewing many disparate concepts over the course of only a second or so 'real time.' Short term memory lasts minutes or hours, but little more, and dreams are the same. Hypnosis however can be remembered in every detail in most cases, permanently, with a single suggestion on the part of the hypnotist - or it can all be forgotten. I am very curious as to why this is.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
The mind is not seperated between conscious/subconscious/subconscious; rather it interacts with reality through sensory perception fully and chooses what to focus on. It is already unified, imo, and really only needs excercise to be able to make fuzzy those distinctions of (un)conscious. Lucid dreaming is a great example of the "conscious" interaction with the "unconscious."

This is certainly true, the brain does perceive the world in a unified fashion. Only our understanding is limited by a compartmentalization effect of transitory memory and the heirarchy of stimulus (sight, touche, sound, smell, taste, in that order IMO). As I said in my last post, I believe this is an evolutionary mechanism to prevent the conscious 'moral' mind from interfering with necessary biolgical or behavioral functions.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
My point was that the term subconscious is used as a reference point in discussion. Though upon reflection, I believe it is a potentially valid distinction to make. "Conscious" has very specific connotation with literal awareness, and sometimes connotations carry more weight than actual definition. I agree that the point of arguement may be largly semantic, however, in dutiful conversation, the use of the term is a helpful guideline, as long as it is understood that the subconscious is not an entity apart from the conscious, but rather an aspect of an entity.

This is interesting, I didn't know we were talking about components of the conscious mind, rather than a component similar to the conscious mind (in the sense of being separate). I think I would agree, hesitantly IF there is a subconscious that can be defined, I would have to agree that it would rest in the conscious mind, as opposed to the instinctual component. This is a sort of superego role you're attributing to it, right? Like a moderator between the conscious and unconscious, but firmly rooted in the 'awareness' if not 'senses' of the conscious mind? Am I understanding your position correctly, or am I agreeing with myself again? I have a habit of doing that.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Dissociative states , controlled, are accomplished by a pre-determined set of stimulii and can result in "personalities" that are seperated by amnesia of sorts. Multiple personality disorder, in that a person can interact in different ways without recollection. This condition wreaks havoc on the concept of conscious and unconscious.

Okay, I understand what you mean now. MPD raises an interesting question, which is, do multiple consciousnesses rely on the same unconscious subset? I think the answer is yes, and that would mean that perhaps we've found an excellent role for the word subconscious. Perhaps human beings have evolved behavior sets, and sometimes multiple ones are present in the same mind (usually as a result of life threatening trauma such as drowning).

It would make sense from an evolutionary standpoint, and organism that is threatened will seek to change its programming to adapt to the new threats. For example, abused children often develop a 'tough' persona in response to the abuse, meanwhile their 'real' (perhaps initial would be a better word) consciousness is subsumed temporarily or permanently. That to me looks like software overwriting itself for the purpose of inceasing survivability.

Perhaps hypnosis (thanks RANT for some really interesting information) is the skeleton key to the 'uber-unconscious.' The overmind (settle down starcraft fans ) that decides which behavior set to adopt or modify based on environmental factors. The purpose of compartmentalization in MPD sufferers seems to be for the same reason as compartmentalization between conscious and unconscious, to preserve the integrity of each individual 'set' for the purpose of testing against evolution. What an interesting thought, MPD might be an evolved response to a complicated society or environment requiring many different behavior sets.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
For the record, I do not hold any real credence to out of body experiences and hold that they are in reality conscious interaction with imagination, if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense and I agree. The only chink in that armor might be reports that lend credence to remote viewing (accounts such as "I saw him putting the clothes in the dryer, even though I was in the garage, I asked him later and sure enough, that's what he was doing when I 'saw' him doing it.")

I have heard first hand accounts from one of my in-laws and I believe his account. He hypnotized himself by staring at a nail on the ceiling, and then traveled out of the room to spy on his wife who was hanging clothes on the line in the backyard. He apparently later told her the order in which she hung up the clothes, and was correct in his 'vision.'

I don't think incidents like that can be explained away as predicting the future based on the past, or reasonable extrapolation. There must be an as yet undiscovered mechanism for receiving information through the cerebral cortex (this may in turn shed some light on dreams, RV (remote viewing), and telepathy.

The sixth sense, rooted in a cavity just beneath the forehead, seems capable of transmitting and receiving electrical or subsonic signals through solid bone and across great distances. Many other animals are in possession of similar apparatus, and while we don't know too much about the functions of these organs, their effects on sensory accuity can't be denied.

Trepanation is a bit extreme, but the benefits are often heralded as miraculous. I would love to know more about the relationship between trepanation and hypnosis, as I don't believe any studies have been done to that end.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Though far from a complete awareness, I can recognise when I "mimic" aspects of someones action/expression, even to the point of realizing in retrospect that I have used words from a particular post in my own response. I see it the most in verbal expressions, i.e.accents, and word usage. An interesting note, and one that I would say helps to gray that line between conscious and unconscious a bit more......maybe we should take into account subjective nature and individuality....? Just a thought.......

It certainly is a wake up call for anybody who wasn't aware. You figure your mind is your own and your behavior is determined by your mind..but the observable behaviors indicate just the opposite. The sheer magnitude of our predictability (as a general rule) is astonishing. I love social engineering for this reason, because one can actually plan interactions and direct their course before they even occur. It's dangerous magic though..voodoo of the highest order.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Decidely non-sequitor..........The problem with Icarus is that he used wax......

Sure, take the story literally, see how far that increases your understanding. Seriously though, I'm of the opinion that ancient stories represented in more than one culture are knowledge passed down from a much wiser culture for our benefit. We must simply (not so simple) decode the parable to find the meaning. Like an onion, there are layers of meaning to every good story.

Somehow I think Icarus would have fared no better with plasticene or polymer wing-glue.

I said..

If the conscious mind were capable of effecting meaningful change in unconscious programming outside of survival situations (yelling at a bear to make it go away - learned behavior in contrast to instinctual behavior [RUN!]), it would largely defeat the purpose of even having the unconscious mind to begin with, wouldn't you agree?


To which you replied..

Originally posted by MemoryShock
No, I wouldn't agree. If the unconscious mind is the functioning mind while asleep and the conscious mind is represented by all awake attentions, then the purpose of the subconscious mind is to incorporate recent experience into associated memories, indeed that is a distinction that has already been made.

Then by the above definition, the subconscious is simply another label for the transcription factor CREB, which plays a dominant role in transforming synaptic connections from short term to long term functionality. The brain seems to periodically flood itself with this transcriptor, in response to unknown stimuli (or under hypnotic suggestion), to refine and reinforce the connections already present.

In other words, you make a thousand memories for every one you keep. Dreaming would appear to be a heightened awareness of this process, rather than a seperate function. The immersion in the unconscious during REM would explain this heightened awareness, and indeed researchers at the NICHHD (I think that's the place) have discovered that the synaptic responses evidenced in the formation of long term memory also play a role in removing those connections 'out of sync' with the surrounding synapses - this is how complex thoughts are formed and nonsensical ones discarded. This process is continual, but is most active during sleep, and specifically REM.

I don't know if any studies have been conducted on synaptic strenghtening during hypnosis, but I imagine the results would be very interesting, and could probably settle our argument once and for all. If the same activity was observable in hypnotized subjects as is observable in dreaming subjects, the similarity between the two states would almost assuredly be more than incidental or anecdotal.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
The conscious mind is then left, if sufficiently aware, to make rational sense of the ever growing database(even redundant experience would count; it would help to reinforce already held conceptions) and would be symbiotic towards the subconscious by helping to refine the appropriate use of logic instead of instinct and vice versa. An "integrated" subconscious would allow for a more aware individual and potentially a more efficient organism. Remember, our current physical incarnations are a result of evolution and not a logic discernment.

Hold on a second, what do you mean by an integrated subconscious? Are we still talking about a communicator embedded in the consciousness for the purpose of communicating unconscious observations to the conscious logical mind? And certainly, the more aware an individual, the greater their survival quotient in SOME instances, but not necessarily universally enough to be a major contributor to evolved traits. A bird doesn't need to 'think' about the angle of the downstroke most efficient in flight, that 'thinking' was done for it millions of years ago, at the expense of many thousands of tired birds who crashed into the ocean short of their destination. Similarly, much of our 'thinking' was done for us many hundreds of thousands of years ago, and our instinct (unconscious) is much more highly evolved than our consciousness.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
As to the actual influence the conscious has on the unconscious, that is more variable than known. However, it has been shown that, through practice, one can exert some control over autonomous functions..........

Through enormous dedication, monks can slow or even stop their own heart, decrease breathing, blood pressure, etc.. But if we're talking about 'mankind' we're talking about the majority, or the successful. The largest statistical catch basin for IQ is around the 100 mark, between 75-100 if I remember right. That would seem to indicate that the most highly successful man variants have little control over their unconscious processes.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
If humans could override their instincts whenever it pleased, it would also be accompanied with sufficient logic and awareness to determine "a time and a place." A conscious influence on the unconscious, and vice versa, does not necassarily mean a muddling of cognitive function..........

You're right, not necessarily, but in my opinion likely. The same can probably siad for the awareness factor, or 'when to engage' behaviors divergent from instinct. I don't think we can assume that just because an organism can override its instinct, that it will know the best times to do so. Evolution hopefully will refine this ability, and preserve only those traits that aid in conscious reasoning without detracting from unconscious, tested and approved behaviors.

Certainly a man who could turn off his innate body language would be at a severe disadvantage in society, unless he was smart enough to manipulate the particulars of his behavior better than his unconscious. I find that a little hard to believe, given the fact that our unconscious has been evolving for a much longer period. It would stand to reason that the unconscious mind is a more refined tool than the monkey bulb we only 'recently' received.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
The assertion you made was with regard to conscious influence over subconscious. To maintain an option to slow the heart beat when over exicted would lower the probability of an irrational act, which would contribute to the probability of survival.

Yes it would, you're right about that particular. But what if you simply forgot to beat your heart at all? I think total conscious control over the heart beat, if ever evolved, would be quickly removed from the 'successful trait' category, due to forgetfullness and preoccupation. Those men might be, in a sense more evolved, but that won't help them stay alive and breed if they're too busy watching the stock market ticker to remember to pump blood.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
To consciously increase a heart rate could serve benifitially when action is required in the transition from sleep to awake...indeed, conscious influence over the subconscious is probably more likely in this transition phase.

I think you're right about conscious influence being more prevalent in semi-lucid, or transitory states. The famous stories about artistic and engineering inspiration being garnered during this period are numerous. Wasn't it Ben Franklin who had most of his inspirations sitting in a rocking chair, falling asleep and waking abruptly from a startling noise?

Originally posted by soficrow
Memory Shock
*snip*. I like your work, thinking, writing, but just cannot read you cuz that flashing light
hurts my eyes and my brain.

I thought I was the only one. Although, some avatars hurt worse than Memory's

I just had to comment, your experiences sound very cool. I envy you your powers.

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Have you done it before, soficrow?

Yes. I used to do it a lot more than now tho. ...Started when I was a kid. *SNIP*

[edit on 10-3-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by TheBandit795
IMO unconscious minds of all people are connected to each other and to a source. In fact it's possible to experience and influence peoples thoughts and feelings by going into a deeply relaxed state and visualize yourself stepping into that person and feeling yourself as being that person. I know it's possible because I've done it before.

Yes, our minds aare so much more powerful than we think. Ideas that we think we have forgotten are still there, and we can recall them if we know how.
Visualizations, affirmations, metaphysics, all kinds of wonderful waays to tap into our subconscious. I think our minds, our soulds if you will, are eternal.

I do wonder about influencing others, though. Doesn't that wreak havoc on their free will

Bandit
You posted some really interesting stuff, I would applaud you incessantly if I could, just for that information you provided to others with your link on Borrowed Genius.

Have you ever heard of the Smoking Mirror? The Chambala, or Jaguar Men?

What you're talking about, with borrowing heads, is actually quite similar to the miracle of mind over matter passed down from generation to generation. I love talking about the power of the mind, because it really does appear to be almost limitless. Much of the potency of the mind is lost to modern man, subdued and dulled by our lifestyles and petty foolish desire.

Most of the power of the Temple Monks, the guardians of wisdom, came from their understanding of the secrets they guarded, their physical training was more designed to instill discipline than harden muscles. When a warrior priest makes war, he doesn't simply posture and pose, he becomes the animal his style takes its name from. Eagle Claw and Snake styles are two that come to mind, they embody the speed and ferocity of their namesakes, and some truly remarkable feats were accomplished using this sort of embodied animism.

The wearing of skins, eating of organs, and mimicry of behaviors is a start..but perception is the key, in combination with faith, or belief if you prefer. If you truly believe you can move mountains, there is nothing to stop you.

The ancients knew of this power, they encoded the secrets for reality manipulation in their stories and legends. History is bursting with examples of men remaking the world with willpower, men changing the universe, men ascending to a heightened state of universal awareness wherein anything conceivable is possible.

Unfortunately, there are some real kooks and nutjobs, false prophets and money grubbing 'mesiahs' perpetually active trying to abuse this power for their own selfish aims. The universe seems intent on defeating their schemes, and yet, when one wishes for something that is in sync with the universal plan that wish has a very high chance for success. Is it possible that the universe has a morality of sorts, a governing perception that overrules our considerable power?

Do you have any background in martial arts or metaphysics?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I will respond to your post, but it's a long one so I need to eat some dinner first. In short order... Thanks for the great post though.

I think it's my turn to fetch for supper........you have provided much food for thought.......

[edit on 10-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

I envy you your powers.

Anyone can do these things. ...Follow some of the links that Bandit posted, there's some good stuff there. And I'm not sure if I said this before, but the best advice I ever had came from Idries Shah:

"If you want to increase your powers, first increase your need."


...If you think about that, you will see that it's true - and it tells you exactly how to go about doing it.


.

I have a habit of exchanging novels with members of ATS.

Sorry if my wording is a little convoluted at times, I do try to make my points as quickly as possible. Enjoy your supper.

I usually discuss this topic lightly, at a surface level. This is one of the more in depth, technical conversations I've had on the subject. It's probably more valuable in the long run, but it is a pain for the reader. Ah well, enjoy!

Sofi
I loved your story about running as an animal. I too experienced something similar, to the point I could almost feel my muscles change in structure. It was so disconcerting I lost my concentration and the feeling faded. Then I was just a half-naked, stoned idiot lost in the woods.

As far as my mind goes, I've always been me (to the best of my knowledge), but I have sought to embody my totem in the physical and spiritual sense. Bear and Raven are the ones I indentify most with, moreso bear for his solitary, contemplative existence, Raven for the way his eyes perceive the world, and for his natural inteligence. The medicine your bear friend brought did you good huh? I wonder how much of that was placebo effect and how much was chemical? Whether you getting better was placebo or not, bears KNOW medicine, that's for sure.

You know what always bothered me though? The eastern ways had little contact with bears, and so they failed to develop a fighting style for bear like they did for the others (eagle, snake, monkey, etc.). I had to develop my own style for lack of an already existing structure. I called it Shattering Bear, and maybe in another 30 years I'll have refined it to the point I can actually accept students.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I have a habit of exchanging novels with members of ATS.

I noticed that. It's charming. Really. And always good for at least one laugh out loud.

Sofi
I loved your story about running as an animal. I too experienced something similar, to the point I could almost feel my muscles change in structure. It was so disconcerting I lost my concentration and the feeling faded. Then I was just a half-naked, stoned idiot lost in the woods.

...One of my favorite experiences is a 'visualization' that's totally sensual and full body (muscle changes, sense of body, vision, hearing, smell). Have been doing it at will for maybe 30 years.

The trigger is to do the wolf thing, running along a cliff "iron muscles flex and bend in rythmns from the birth of time" - then the cliff ends and I'm into the air - a hawk or an eagle - then into the water and become ...? not sure "a song of coiled light" maybe a dolphin or a killer whale. Can't tell at all because the vision is so different. But definitely not a blue or other huge whale.

Have written about it but won't share it here cuz I want to retain copyright.

The medicine your bear friend brought did you good huh? I wonder how much of that was placebo effect and how much was chemical? Whether you getting better was placebo or not, bears KNOW medicine, that's for sure.

IMO - it was real. ...I have a disease called fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD) - and I AM an expert on it. Ask anyone here.

...It can be life threatening - and is usually diagnosed in autopsy. Done the tunnels and the white light more than once. ...Trust me - hat bear knew his stuff.

I had to develop my own style for lack of an already existing structure. I called it Shattering Bear, and maybe in another 30 years I'll have refined it to the point I can actually accept students.

Let me know when you set up your dojo.


.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

Sorry if my wording is a little convoluted at times,

I could make the same apology.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I usually discuss this topic lightly, at a surface level. This is one of the more in depth, technical conversations I've had on the subject. It's probably more valuable in the long run, but it is a pain for the reader. Ah well, enjoy!

Hardly a pain.....in fact, this conversation is one of the most interesting I've had on ATS precisely for the technicalities.......I'm having to actually make a conscious( ) effort at responding,.. it doesn't happen often.




[edit on 10-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by soficrow
Anyone can do these things. ...Follow some of the links that Bandit posted, there's some good stuff there.

And I'm not sure if I said this before, but the best advice I ever had came from Idries Shah:

"If you want to increase your powers, first increase your need."

Here's another, one of my favorites:

When the student is ready. . . the lesson appears.

--Gene Oliver

Actually, I have begun my search for knowledge. B.O.T.A.

wakey wakey, rise and shine!

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Apparently we have underestimated our unconscious mind again. The unconscious mind often causes people to do irrational things, and have irrational viewpoints on different matters, as can be seen here on ATS for example. I am not immune to it either. This is not a excuse post, neither a post about not being responsible for your actions. Everybody has to be responsible for their actions of course, but it's important to find out what causes people to do the stuff that they do in order to be able to better it.

Okay. What does this mean? That people aren't responsible for what they do? ...Or that sometimes they're not responsible?

And if our unconscious minds make most of our decisions, and our unconscious can be manipulated - then what can we DO about that?

I'm SURE there is a defense. But what is it? And can we teach it in schools for example?



.

Yes it was once taught in schools, it was called religion, and civility, and values. Fear of a "higher" power other than mankind.

TheBandit795, thanks for the link, very interesting article.

It points out something I have come to believe in recent years: man is not a ratiolal animal, but is a rationalizing one. IE people make decisions based on unconscious psychological needs and then come up with reasons for them, rather than looking at the facts and comng up with answers based on logical deduction.

The best defense against this is not some external unifying order IMHO (blind obedience is just as bad as blind selfishness), but rigorous self-criticism and a willingness to examine and evaluate one's own motivations.

IE people make decisions based on unconscious psychological needs and then come up with reasons for them

From what I have observed, that seems to be true. I think I am the exception. Whenever I notice I want something, I analyze carefully why I want it, and often over-rule myself with logic (more than most people). Sometimes I feel a little less human, because I tend to suppress emotion whenever possible (except compassion, but I have a logical rationale for that).

I'm not sure if I have ever loved or hated (to any discernable level), or even what they would feel like (kinda glad too). I've only had compassion or gotten irritated. I do get happy or sad though, but if I want to buy something or do something that I think will make me happy, I fully calculate the amount of happy I will get out of it long term, and at what cost. I tend to prioritize my actions just like if I was playing the sims, consciosly manipulating my meters, like I was playing myself in the Sims maybe.

You will even see me sit there and analyze why I would want to buy name brand instead of a cheaper off brand, and whether the effect would be worth the price difference. It's kind funny to think about how much thought I put into something as simple as ordering a pizza. Is it cost effective, is there something that will make me just as happy, why do I want to do this, will it still be good the next day, how could I better put the money to use, how could someone else put the money better to use, etc. (and no I'm not broke, actually... having these thoughts saves a ton of money)

I think emotion is a form of insanity, but unfortunately the whole human race is affected.




[edit on 11-3-2005 by freeb]

I do find myself having a good understanding of how people work by analyzing my own actions. I find myself having an easy time manipulating people just by understanding their needs and how this affects people's thought processes. I don't do it too often, because I enjoy people doing things voluntarily, but I don't mind helping them along here and there.

Admittedly, sometimes I do something just to see how they'll respond, but I'm pretty much to the point where I don't need to. I can tell you just by looking at them, what they want from life and what their motivations are. Actually, its kinda boring to know so much ahead of time.

[edit on 11-3-2005 by freeb]

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Yes it was once taught in schools, it was called religion, and civility, and values. Fear of a "higher" power other than mankind.

There is no real defense, religion does nothing but give the "manipulator" another means to attack you.
It was once forced down the throats of kids in school but now your free to pick what ever one you want or none at all....

It was once forced down the throats of kids in school but now your free to pick what ever one you want or none at all....

Ideologies and morals are still forced down people's throats. Whether the new ones are better are up to you to decide.

Originally posted by WyrdeOneDid you know human beings are (to my knowledge) the only macrofauna on the planet that consume bitter foods? All other animals (vertebrates at least) avoid bitterness at all costs. Where am I going with this? I don't know...

Your direction would clarify how I would respond.......

I said:

Originaly posted by MemoryShockThese chemical reactions are what inclines the human organism to or from a stimulus, the inclination being, to varying degrees which I would say is determined by experience

I was trying to state that what humans call emotion are a result of the chemical reactions in our bodies. Certain hormones get released in response to situations that the body interprets as fight or flight and all the ponts on the spectrum in between. Certain social situations cause discomfort, some the opposite. How are these distinctions made? In part due to the evolved part of our unconscious that has "learned" what some social cues mean and in part to the immediate experiences of the individual. Dreams incorporate the memory of hormonal reaction to situations as well as the visual, tactile,etc. aspects. The search for meaning is secondary, as it is most likely unique to humanity, and therefore would have had less time for evolution.......we as a species are still evolving a conscious interpretation of reality.....I believe you have already stated/implied that our subconscious is far more evolved than the conscious.

Originally posted by WrydeOneHmmmm... I'm not sure I understand what you're saying with this sentence. Do you mean to say that our morals are based on logic because they are used by our conscious mind to avoid uncomfortable situations?

Nope. I was trying to say that the assimilation of a moral standard at an early age is usually the result of good/bad reinforcement. The child is punished or rewarded for its behaviour and will usually begin to anticipate consequences on a physical level. This has been shown in studies where an authority figure would leave the child alone with temptation and a choice. "Tells" like looking around in an already established empty room, etc. The "logical" explanation for this behaviour usually forms a bit later when cognition is accelerated. As this relates to dreams....the chicken came after the egg, or the rational thoughts are secondary(but by no means less important or unpronounced) to the primary biological inclinations.

Originally posted by WyrdeOneMany animals dream, but it seems that they dream for a slightly different reason, practice (even things like muscle and tendon excercise to produce

Right. But why is this.....Because the animal evolved physical charachteristics to sate it's basic instincts........I like to think of cats and their remarkable agility and overall svelte nature. They sleep quite a bit and my guess is that their dreams consist of their navigation of their environment because they ain't known to be clumsy. To provide a comparison, dogs are social creatures that constantly attenuate to their masters for direction......the dog wagging its tail in its sleep could be dreaming of happy thoughts such as being rewarded with a scratch behind the ear. Of course these are my own ruminations and I can't substantiate it, but it sounds logical to me.

Originally posted by WyrdeOneIt is a shame, and I pity people who don't take advantage of this incredible gift we have.

I think it has alot to do with the propagation of religion and pop culture and the lack of any serious consideration. I find it suspicious that dreams, a nightly ritual that happens to everyone, is often relagated to the mystic or paranormal sections that noone takes seriously. Hhhhmmmm.......

Originally posted by WyrdeOneI think the threshold for complex thinking is something like 110 IQ, give or take a dime. That means approximately three quarters of Americans, and presumably the world, live a life more closely resembling that of a dog than a scholar. Scary huh?

Yes, a scary thought indeed. I have noticed some people like this in my life and have tormented myself with how to "fix it." I haven't been able to accomplish arrogance on that level, and probably won't. Instead, I reinforce whatever it is that is enjoyable and seek other outlets.....a note though....I have come across reports stating that IQ is not static. Reflection on one's life and memories, and I mean true reflection with more than passable attempts at objectivity, can resolve redundant associations and allow for mental expansion. Not to sure though......

Originally posted by Wyrde OneThere is no moral leeway for child murder, but evolutionarily speaking it is sometimes necessary.

That is false. Evolution, a large scale process, does not benefit from child murder. Evolution is based on the reproduction of genetic material. Biological benefits get passed on because the parent was desirable in some way. A child cannot pass on genetic material. A massive offing of children does not guarantee the elimination of a specific trait because the genes never fully expressed themselves. The only actual impact of infanticide is a social/moral complication. Infanticide is not required by evolution.

Originally posted by WyrdeOneseemingly arbitrary constructs of morality interfere with the cold, hard, decision making our brain has to do.

This is true. But morality as a general concept is more valid in populations and the working class. It is a construct of social engineering that has evolved into many associations and manifestations(religion, politics, even fad diets. "Is it right for me to eat this twinkie?").
However, the burden in my opinion is only carried by those who are even aware of the dichotomy of logic and emotion as applicable to their decision making skills.......I think it is safe to say that many people aren't aware because society is designed to prevent that.....another thread or two for that subject.........

Originally posted by WyrdeOneShort term memory lasts minutes or hours, but little more, and dreams are the same. Hypnosis however can be remembered in every detail in most cases, permanently, with a single suggestion on the part of the hypnotist - or it can all be forgotten. I am very curious as to why this is.

Long-term potentiation. A process that sees a dendrite increase in surface area the more it's associated thought/experience/perception is used. In short term memory, is short term because the memory isn't expanded on, or given attention, obviously. But that doesn't mean the dendrite goes away, nor does the axon. These are biological creations in response to an experience/thought/perseption and don't disappear because of its inactivity.......I don't exercise my bicep often, but it's still there. Same with neurons and their functional tidbits.

Now remember all neurons are connected. If you think about what you did an hour ago and what happened before it and so on and so forth, you could trace your way back to memories that are on their way to inactivity. Hypnosis just speeds this process up to allow you to remember what happened 20 years ago on such and such......

Actually, one of my curiosities has to do with neurogenisis and whether or not the new neurons come to play with a DNA representaion of memory that translates into "the memory" of the association. Can/do associations pass/be saved from the effects of apoptosis? Maybe a study on hypnosis and the suggestibility of long-term memory on the elderly/ mild Alzheimers could give a weak indication.......

Originally posted by WyrdeOneThis is a sort of superego role you're attributing to it, right? Like a moderator between the conscious and unconscious, but firmly rooted in the 'awareness' if not 'senses' of the conscious mind? Am I understanding your position correctly, or am I agreeing with myself again?

No, not a type of superego. Freud was a loon......an "aspect of an entity" in that its role is to maintain awareness while the conscious interacts with the organism's direct stimulii. The unconscious is there to maintain memory and subsequent updates.

Remeber, I dislike all these terms......I'm still trying to word out my expression of the mind as aspects of awareness. I'm really working with the idea of one mind and it's allocation of focus/awarenes; levels of alertness/responsiveness.......

Originally posted by WyrdeOne The purpose of compartmentalization in MPD sufferers seems to be for the same reason as compartmentalization between conscious and unconscious,

I have to disagree with this statement. I don't think there is a compartmentalization between the conscious and unconscious. I cite the whole of humanity as evidence.....as varied as physical features apparent in the individual, so is the variance of expression. Some people repeat what they hear often, some people attempt to explain things using a wide range of datapoints, and so on. The level of expression, I believe, is an indicator on how integrated the conscious is with the unconscious. Someone who can express a similar sentiment in many different ways probably remembers many similar experiences, or is readily able to recall similar experiances. So you have varying levels of integration all throughout society......I'm fairly certain, by my own discernments and logical rational, that photographic memory is/can be a learned trait.........

That isn't to say that I disagree with the compartmentilization reality of MPD.....definetely an interesting thought as I agree with you in that the different "sets" draw from the same unconscious.....it would have to. But, why don't these "sets" communicate?

Originally posted by WyrdeOneI don't think incidents like that can be explained away as predicting the future based on the past, or reasonable extrapolation.

I've had my own bouts with this subject matter and suffice to say I agree with your summations.....although I'm really, really, very skeptical about trepanation. I don't write it off completely because I haven't experienced it.

Originally posted by WyrdeOneSure, take the story literally, see how far that increases your understanding.

To read the story of Icarus is to read an advocation for tunnel vision. I agree that the old stories are rich in info beyond their "pseudo-read between the lines morals", but my experience tells me that a story told over and over is meant for its social application....I'm still curious why you brought the reference into play to begin with.....

Originally posted by MemoryShockNo, I wouldn't agree. If the unconscious mind is the functioning mind while asleep and the conscious mind is represented by all awake attentions, then the purpose of the subconscious mind is to incorporate recent experience into associated memories, indeed that is a distinction that has already been made.

I meant to say unconscious.......that would make the last 10 words applicable.

Originally posted by WrydeOneThe immersion in the unconscious during REM would explain this heightened awareness, and indeed researchers at the NICHHD (I think that's the place) have discovered that the synaptic responses evidenced in the formation of long term memory also play a role in removing those connections 'out of sync' with the surrounding synapses - this is how complex thoughts are formed and nonsensical ones discarded. This process is continual, but is most active during sleep, and specifically REM.

Fascinating stuff.......could you forward me to a site where this may reside?

Originally posted by WyrdeOneHold on a second, what do you mean by an integrated subconscious?

Oops again......what a difference two letters make. *Sigh*

Originally posted by WyrdeOneThrough enormous dedication, monks can slow or even stop their own heart, decrease breathing, blood pressure, etc.. But if we're talking about 'mankind' we're talking about the majority, or the successful.

This type of control can be successfully exerted over a hypnotized subject, even in the average man. Not sure what that indicates.....

Originally posted by WyrdeOneThose men might be, in a sense more evolved, but that won't help them stay alive and breed if they're too busy watching the stock market ticker to remember to pump blood.

The assertion you made was with regard to conscious influence over unconscious.....that would suggest a control exerted at will and for reason. Nothing their precludes the maintenace of the function by the unconscious.



I don't usually post novels so that should give you an inkling of the interest I have regarding thiis subject. Very interesting indeed.......

You raised some interesting points, in the spirit of brevity, I'm just going to contest the contentious ones. heh

Originally posted by MemoryShockThey sleep quite a bit and my guess is that their dreams consist of their navigation of their environment because they ain't known to be clumsy.

heh You've never met my cat. His name is Tiger Koenig (King Tiger), but I call him BucketHead because he runs into so many things, including me.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Yes, a scary thought indeed. I have noticed some people like this in my life and have tormented myself with how to "fix it." I haven't been able to accomplish arrogance on that level, and probably won't. Instead, I reinforce whatever it is that is enjoyable and seek other outlets.....a note though....I have come across reports stating that IQ is not static. Reflection on one's life and memories, and I mean true reflection with more than passable attempts at objectivity, can resolve redundant associations and allow for mental expansion. Not to sure though......

I don't know if IQ increases or not, I've been told mostly it doesn't. I know for a fact however, wisdom grows, and decision making ability grows. They grow at different speeds in different people, but generaly the contemplative do better than reactionaries. Reactionaries are more in touch with their inner reptile, contemplative people are more in touch with their inner monkey, the little opposable-thumbed problem solver, trying to get the termites out of the mound...

Originally posted by Wyrde OneThere is no moral leeway for child murder, but evolutionarily speaking it is sometimes necessary.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
That is false. Evolution, a large scale process, does not benefit from child murder. Evolution is based on the reproduction of genetic material. Biological benefits get passed on because the parent was desirable in some way. A child cannot pass on genetic material. A massive offing of children does not guarantee the elimination of a specific trait because the genes never fully expressed themselves. The only actual impact of infanticide is a social/moral complication. Infanticide is not required by evolution.

I disagree. Evolution is a large scale process, but it would nothing with remarkable individuals. You're right it is about genetic material, and it is about biological benefits of the parents, but it is also about the traits of the children. If the animals perceive their children as sub-par or a detriment to the gene pool, they'll kill them.

Some island tribes used to crush their baby's heads with rocks if they were born with birthmarks. Obviously, there was no morality involved. Some of it was societal stigma, probably based on some sort of idea of eugenics.

The impact of infanticide can mean the difference between life or death for a species. For example, if animals didn't kill their offspring during food shortages, the animals wouldn't live long enough to breed again, it would be the end of the group. In isolated, rare groups, hovering on the edge of extinction, this could mean the end.

The birds off the coast of Scotland don't breed when there is not enough to eat, to do so would mean suicide. I also never said anything about killing off large groups. I was talking about parents willfully selecting the weakest for murder, which is what animals often do. Obviously this behavior is completely diametrically opposed to morality, but that's the point I'm trying to make. Evolution and morality are anathema to each other.


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Originally posted by MemoryShock
However, the burden in my opinion is only carried by those who are even aware of the dichotomy of logic and emotion as applicable to their decision making skills.......I think it is safe to say that many people aren't aware because society is designed to prevent that.....another thread or two for that subject.........

Aint that the truth? Ignorance is bliss, and an ignorant society is a self destructive society, and an ignorant society is a profitable society for those at the top of the pyramid.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
But that doesn't mean the dendrite goes away, nor does the axon. These are biological creations in response to an experience/thought/perseption and don't disappear because of its inactivity.......I don't exercise my bicep often, but it's still there. Same with neurons and their functional tidbits.

Your muscles atrophy because of disuse, so do brain connections. They aren't physically 'grown' they're activated with energy, the energy draws the protein factories, which churn out receptors that bind to the receptor. The increased receptor surface area intensifies the thought, allows a greater transmission of chemical energy. Memorizing something is as easy as repeating it over and over, for an extended period time. The more receptors on the neuron the more time it will spend inactive before becoming erased, if you have brief fleeting thought it's unlikely you'll rememeber it the next day.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Now remember all neurons are connected. If you think about what you did an hour ago and what happened before it and so on and so forth, you could trace your way back to memories that are on their way to inactivity. Hypnosis just speeds this process up to allow you to remember what happened 20 years ago on such and such......

To my knowledge all neurons are not connected to each other explicity. Each neuron is connected to between 10000 and 100000 other neurons. Implicity you could follow the train all around the brain, daisy chain, is that what you meant?

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Actually, one of my curiosities has to do with neurogenisis and whether or not the new neurons come to play with a DNA representaion of memory that translates into "the memory" of the association. Can/do associations pass/be saved from the effects of apoptosis? Maybe a study on hypnosis and the suggestibility of long-term memory on the elderly/ mild Alzheimers could give a weak indication.......

There has been some recent interesting information, in the journals, linking mis-folded proteins very similar to the ones that cause mad cow, being responsible for memory creation. Where that new research will take us who knows...

Originally posted by MemoryShock
That isn't to say that I disagree with the compartmentilization reality of MPD.....definetely an interesting thought as I agree with you in that the different "sets" draw from the same unconscious.....it would have to. But, why don't these "sets" communicate?

They have been recorded to, usually to threaten or bully a weaker consciousness. They usually don't mix, probably to retain their integrity for the purposes of the experiment. If the unconscious is trying different models, it needs to know how they react to the world indipendently so if it finds the 'right' one it can discard the others without allowing their flaws to leak over into the chosen identity.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
To read the story of Icarus is to read an advocation for tunnel vision. I agree that the old stories are rich in info beyond their "pseudo-read between the lines morals", but my experience tells me that a story told over and over is meant for its social application....I'm still curious why you brought the reference into play to begin with.....

Suffice to say, I disagree that is an advocation of tunnel vision. I would never encourage tunnel vision, it's anathema to logic, which is the principle I hold most dear. But a good story is one that bends to the interpretation of the listener, so I suppose you should be encouraged to see it any way it strikes you. That being said allow me to meddle with your consciousness...

I like the story for its value arguing caution in the face of youthful zeal. I believe mankind teeters on the brink of discovery in so many areas, the next millenium could be truly amazing in the scope of our achievments..or it could be disasterous. Hypnosis, if it leads to a greater understanding of the power of the mind, could turn into an Icarus metaphor. Also, I was thinking about it the other day in regards to zero point energy, an idea with incredible potential, to either change our society for the better or wipe our planet, and perhaps our whole universe, out of existence.

I agree that stories are often the tools of social engineers, but remember, not all the engineers are out for their own gain. Some of them are actually looking out for humanities best interests, and have been since the beginning of inteligence...

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Fascinating stuff.......could you forward me to a site where this may reside?

I heard about the experiment through the February issue of Scientific American.