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Pope Francis 'not afraid' of schism with US Catholics

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posted on Sep, 10 2019 @ 11:43 PM
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The pope has responded to attacks from conservative Catholics who criticize his stance on social issues and climate change. He accused some of stabbing him in the back. Pope Francis said Tuesday he wasn't afraid of a schism within the Catholic Church and that his opponents use "rigid" ideology to cover their own moral failings.
Speaking to reporters during an in-flight press conference en route to the Vatican after a three-nation Africa tour, the pontiff said that some of his ultra-conservative American critics had allowed political ideology to infiltrate religious doctrine.
"I am not afraid of schisms," Francis said. "I pray that there won't be any because the spiritual health of many people is at stake."

Pope Francis 'not afraid' of schism with US Catholics

1. Climate change

Pope Francis took bold stance on Climate issues. On September 1st, he said: "Now is the time to abandon our dependence on fossil fuels and move, quickly and decisively, towards forms of clean energy and a sustainable and circular economy."

With the incoming Climate summit in the UN on September 23, together with the new EU commission Green Deal, that could possibly transfer into a radical change not just of the energy source but of the whole economy as result.

2. Social policy

The social issues of inequality, marginalization, unemployment especially among the youth, immigration, are something the pope advocates from Day 1 in the Vatican when elected in 2013. He appoints cardinals from the outskirts of the Catholic church who deal with the above problems, at the expense of the bishops in major cities.

3. Moral issues

Maybe the biggest problem for the ultraconservatives is to accept that the pope acknowledges diversity within the Catholic Church (and the world), appoints cardinals who are LGBT friendly, allows Holy Communion for the remarried couples. The incoming Synod for the Amazon in October is expected to allow married priests for the vast Amazon subcontinent where the shortages are felt most. The question of female deacons is also discussed.

4. Ultraconservatives in public opposition of pope's policy

All of that, together with some purely doctrinal questions, makes the ultra conservatives within the Catholic church the pope's biggest enemies. That may well end up in their formal schism, whether initiated by themselves, or by excommunications of their leaders, such as cardinals Burke, Sarah, Muller, Brandmuller, the ex-papal nuncio to USA archbishop Vigano, bishop Schneider of Kazakhstan, who already formally questioned the papal positions on key issues and even accused him, more or less directly, of committing a formal schism. From those, only cardinal Burke is American. Muller and Brandmuller are Germans, in contrast with the other predominantly open minded German bishops and cardinals. So the question is not so much of nationality, rather of declared position.

5. Ultraconservatives outnumbered

Their biggest problem is, however, they are greatly outnumbered in the college of cardinals (118 electors), as well as among the bishops. So they could not hope realistically that pope Francis' successor will be more friendly to their ultra conservative agenda that mirrors some unrealistic medieval scenario. The majority cardinals voted for pope Bergoglio Francis in 2013 exactly to give him mandate for reforms. And if his reforms drag feet, it is because of the ultraconservative prelates who, with the threat of keeping unity of the Church, demand unrealistic conditions and block any idea of a meaningful reform. So happened on the two Synods for the families, where blackmailed by that ultraconservative minority, the gay issue was literally thrown out of the board, and only remained the vague permission given by pope Francis afterwards for the remarried couples to receive Holy Communion, depending on each bishop's discretion. That alone made a continuous storm in the following years among the ultraconservatives, accusing the pope he changes doctrines and dogmas by allowing that.

6. Fight before the next conclave and successor of pope Francis

Having in mind the age of pope Francis, 82, one could reason that on the next conclave, or even before that, the conservative minority knowing it will lose in the conclave, will try to make its own version of election, i.e. will separate in a formal schism and will pretend to have its own pope, most likely one of the above mentioned cardinals.

7. The patience of pope Francis has just ended

Until now, pope Francis tried to downplay those processes. The last time he answered a public letter of ultraconservatives accusing him, he laughed at it. This time, however, it seems he takes a different stance. That makes me think, he probably has information that the expected events, including around the Climate change, will antagonize the ultraconservatives to the breaking point and they will take steps to formally separate from the Catholic Church, pretending it is they who hold the true catholic church teaching. Therefore the unusually strong words of pope Francis, the strongest for his entire pontificate, that he is not afraid of a schism, although he prays to avoid it.

8. A point of reflection for the American catholics

Many common American catholics who believe in the good tradition, are actually misled by the above mentioned prelates who are far not only American. Therefore, the public words of pope Francis could make them realize where they stand as catholics, with or against the catholic church that is not bound to medieval paradigms anymore, rather open for changes corresponding to a changed world. Indeed, many would say, God's word is unchanged, why should we change with the world? But that kind of logic should go back centuries when the medieval understanding of Christianity changed it to absurdity compared to early centuries... In all, the above developments are a good point for all, both American and others, to reflect where they want to be, in the fast forming sect led by outdated principles and fanatic leaders, or in the Catholic church that is concerned for the planet and for the people who live on it, in the light of the authentic read of the Gospel.
edit on 11-9-2019 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 12:33 AM
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a reply to: 2012newstart




his opponents use "rigid" ideology to cover their own moral failings.


Thats a F*%#in riot...like really...my sides are still hurting from that one lol



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 03:56 AM
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a reply to: 2012newstart


the pontiff said that some of his ultra-conservative American critics had allowed political ideology to infiltrate religious doctrine.


This is no doubt true, same as has religious doctrine been infiltrating political ideologies since the beginning of it's existence.

The two are , not so strange bedfellows.



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 07:20 AM
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Yep, he's going to the lake....

Not hell.....Gehenna ...We get to watch the action as it happens. He's 82 years old now.....has to last through 7 years of wickedness....so, right quickly here, huh!
edit on 11-9-2019 by GBP/JPY because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 07:36 AM
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a reply to: RickyD

If you disagree with me it is because you are immoral. Be right back, I need to go make sure all the pedophile priests are properly hidden.
edit on 11-9-2019 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: 2012newstart

The antics of this "Pope" have gotten me thinking about the prophesies of Fatima again.

Cheers



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 08:17 AM
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"Ultra-conservative." A new made up term that means nothing, that we can use to pretend conservatives are radicals despite the fact conservatism is literally in opposition to radical change.



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 10:23 AM
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he doesn't care about anyone, not catholics in or outside america.



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 10:47 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Its literally the entire history of the catholic church. Inquisition anyone?



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 11:14 AM
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Have to wonder why its only Americans upset over god's chosen messenger.
A pope accepting scientific facts in 1519 may have caused uproar but its 2019.
Accepting problems with far-right ultra conservative types would have been handy during WW2 when the catholic church ran the ratlines for nazis, better late than never.

America has already invented two semi successful religions, wacky mormons with wonky hieroglyphs and surreal scientology with xenu.
Do Americans want to start a new, stricter religion?
Henry the 8th broke away from the catholic church and invented his own religion (making himself and every monarch since gods only messenger) so it can be done better than joe smith and ron hubbard.
The way the country is going maybe call it kkkatholic.



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 11:57 AM
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originally posted by: ManWhoWasThursday
"Ultra-conservative." A new made up term that means nothing, that we can use to pretend conservatives are radicals despite the fact conservatism is literally in opposition to radical change.


I use ultra conservatives instead of conservatives, because what happens with those radicals is far beyond what is the normal conservative political view, or religious view. That is the only reason I use this term, and I do not put in it anything else.

a reply to: contextual

Why USA? It is said clearly in the article I quote, that they are not only US prelates but from everywhere also some within the Curia. Seems however that there is organized resistance in USA, mostly around the latin mass communities, that does not exist in other countries to that degree. On internet in their blogs they openly call the pope "antichrist" instead to admit they have to tone it down.

That doesn't mean, again, that every conservative american catholic is against the pope! In no way! (That's why I avoid to say only "conservatives"). Those who are the radical ultra conservatives, are relatively few in numbers but very vocal, and since they are independent as communities, pretending they hold the hand of God and the true teaching of the church...Having the backing of several influential prelates, some of which I named above, it is a ready case for schism.
edit on 11-9-2019 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-9-2019 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: 2012newstart
Then they aren't conservatives. They might be reactionaries depending on their political opinions. A reactionary may believe in indirect voting for the members of the Senate, a return to separate elections for POTUS and VP, limiting the rights of women with regards to voting.

Alternatively they may be theocrats.

@contextual: Where is the USA going that you suspect white supremacy as a religion? White racism isn't exactly an issue, unlike anti white racism...
edit on 11-9-2019 by ManWhoWasThursday because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 12:55 PM
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Thoughtful thread OP--S&F.

I love Pope Francis. True to his name, he's walking the walk and doing the Lord's work.
The ultraconservatives in the US are annoying and need to pipe down. In typical fashion, they're blinded by their own narrow-minded, judgmental, self-righteous ways.



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 01:30 PM
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I have a friend (in his 30s) (baptized Catholic) who went from atheist pagan to Latin rite Catholic in the blink of an eye. He is now undergoing the Total Consecration to Jesus rite.

He was searching for a faith with "meat". The pagan works were boring and unubstantial to him. He found a book written by a saint, started reading and within a day, turned Old School RC.

He says the Pope is too wishy washy and does not adhere to the old, pre Vat 2 rules. He and his friends blame Vat 2 for the uprise in pedo priests. He wants the Church to clean itself up.

Been really interesting to watch.

As for my take, as a cradle Catholic, I follow Jesus' teachings as best I can. All these levels of administration make me sick. That goes for anything. My dad (a teacher) said "more admin, less being done".



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 01:38 PM
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originally posted by: Gandalf77
Thoughtful thread OP--S&F.

I love Pope Francis. True to his name, he's walking the walk and doing the Lord's work.
The ultraconservatives in the US are annoying and need to pipe down.


Funny because his fellow catholics all over the world dont feel the same way, they borderline think the guy is the antichrist.

Hiding and abedding pedophiles, and doing everything he can to destroy his own church.





In typical fashion, they're blinded by their own narrow-minded, judgmental, self-righteous ways.


The irony here is so delicious im just going to have to sit here and savor it.

Have you READ your own posts on this site since you joined? Talk about being blinded and self righteous



Because apparently you dont have one



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 01:53 PM
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originally posted by: SailorJerry

originally posted by: Gandalf77
Thoughtful thread OP--S&F.

I love Pope Francis. True to his name, he's walking the walk and doing the Lord's work.
The ultraconservatives in the US are annoying and need to pipe down.


Funny because his fellow catholics all over the world dont feel the same way, they borderline think the guy is the antichrist.

Hiding and abedding pedophiles, and doing everything he can to destroy his own church.


I am a Roman Catholic, and I think Pope Francis is following the example of his namesake.
He's putting the emphasis squarely where it needs to be: feeding the hungry, visiting the imprisoned, clothing the naked, embracing the stranger/immigrant/outcast.

He's not hiding and abedding pedophiles, and to suggest he's doing everything he can to destroy his own church is ridiculous.

It just so happens that the issues he's focused on tend to be issues that rankle conservatives, regardless of their religious affiliation. So yes, when they ignore the ways and teachings of the founder of their faith--Jesus Christ--and the example Pople Francis is setting by following those ways, I don't have a problem suggesting they're blinded.



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 10:19 PM
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a reply to: Gandalf77




He's not hiding and abedding pedophiles


Wrong word here ... but possibly the Holy Spirit came down and used His influence to alter your word usage so that the truth would rise to the surface.

The Pedophiles bed the little children and yes, the pope is heavily involved as was the last pope.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church is not what it appears to be.

P



posted on Sep, 11 2019 @ 11:18 PM
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a reply to: pheonix358

Do you have proof, evidence, sources, etc. that you’d care to share?



posted on Sep, 12 2019 @ 12:02 AM
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a reply to: Gandalf77

Just use your favorite search engine and use the search term 'Church abuse of minors'

Why could you not do that yourself?

P



posted on Sep, 12 2019 @ 07:20 AM
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originally posted by: Gandalf77
a reply to: pheonix358

Do you have proof, evidence, sources, etc. that you’d care to share?



A report released this weekend by a former Vatican ambassador to the United States charges that Pope Francis knew about sexual abuse by former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, removed a suspension placed on him by Pope Benedict, and proceeded to make the known abuser one of his most trusted advisors. Pope Francis “knew from at least June 23, 2013 that McCarrick was a serial predator, [but] he covered for him to the bitter end,” wrote Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, nuncio to Washington from 2011-2016, before demanding the pontiff resign.

The pope knew.

That is a damning allegation coming from a very senior church leader. It also corresponds to anecdotal evidence piling up against Francis. Earlier this year, Pope Francis attacked Chilean sex-abuse victims for “calumny” and defended the bishop who covered up for a pedophile priest. The pope ignored complaints about the enabling bishop before promoting him in 2015.


www.usatoday.com...



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