Ooh! Look! An Acorn!

I also think for students who go this route, we need to look at creating technical degrees too. A lot of times, the filler requirements you have in an academic degree program are redundant on top of your high school requirements. You should be able to shoot straight into your career/field of study track.

Maybe if you are going to traditional academic route, you can keep the requirements in your liberal arts degree, but if you're going strictly for the job training, why do you need x-many more credits in history, and philosophy, and this, and that, etc., etc., etc.?

originally posted by: Rewey
a reply to: Boadicea

I like the idea, but I've heard of it many times before. Instead of spending time in a social work capacity, however, it's as a cadet or reserve in one of the services of your choice.

I think that would be a great additional option. We can do both -- all kinds of ways to contribute to the community. Ideally, it'd be great if kids could somehow work in the field of their study at some point as well in a public service capacity, and actually using their skills for the community.

When a cousin went to veterinary school, the state was so desperate for vets that they offered to forgive her student loans if she practiced in the state. I think there's many ways we could optimize and maximize for the betterment of both the individuals and the community.

The only reason I like that alternative better is because it teaches young people the importance of being part of a team, respecting authority, and that loving and serving your country isn't always the dreaded 'nationalism'...

Those are great qualities to cultivate and encourage in many ways and in many settings. The more the better!

But ya lost me at "respecting" authority... Our "authorities" don't always or necessarily deserve our respect. Too often, exactly the opposite. I think it's more important and practical to question authority, challenge authority when appropriate, and defy authority when necessary...

a reply to: Boadicea

I think too many people equate respect for authority with blind obedience. They're different things.

There are way too many people walking around who couldn't, wouldn't and won't respect another person if they have no reason not to or even if that respect should be due. This isn't about so-called authority figures who do't deserve it.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

I think too many people equate respect for authority with blind obedience. They're different things.

There are way too many people walking around who couldn't, wouldn't and won't respect another person if they have no reason not to or even if that respect should be due. This isn't about so-called authority figures who do't deserve it.

This. It isn't about becoming subservient non-thinkers. Just about respect. Respect of your elders, superiors, bosses... All the things that seem to have gone out the window in recent years.

I believe there's a saying in the military which sort of sums it up: you're saluting the uniform, not the person.

a reply to: Woodcarver

We already have socialized education. This just makes it work a little better (IMO, if properly implemented).

I will agree that we don't need any new charities popping up just to take advantage of young folks. Maybe a 1-year moratorium on new charities? As in, a charity isn't eligible for the first year they are in operation. On the other hand, why does it have to be an organized charity? Why wouldn't helping someone who is elderly (and not a family member) not be considered community service? Or a disabled vet? Enterprising youth could seek out the disadvantaged in their community and just spend some time with them! The recipient could sign an affidavit that they were assisted.

I know a lot of old folk and a lot of our forgotten vets are simply looking, and looking desperately, just for a friendly face and a sympathetic ear... someone to sit and talk with (more like listen to) them. Someone who doesn't mind driving them to the grocery store and helping them get some food. Someone who will clean up that messy spot in the kitchen they can't seem to bend down to get any more. Someone who will stop by and mow the yard for someone who can't afford a service.

How about Habitat for Humanity? Help build some deserving but indigent family a home! They can always use the help, and the volunteer actually learns a lot about building practices and codes. How about helping out at the Red Cross or Goodwill? Heck, take a short class and babysit for those single mothers struggling to make ends meet. Every community has people who need help, and right now there's no, absolutely zero benefit, to anyone who helps them.

And it's not like we're talking about giving anyone a hand-out. Just going to college is not a guarantee of a degree. One has to actually pass the required courses. In that respect, this is a hand up: a way to improve your life by helping to improve the lives of others.

I reject the complaint that this is socialism... socialism is not a bad word in itself. Too much, sure, it turns into a disaster. But too little can be just as bad.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ketsuko

There are way too many people walking around who couldn't, wouldn't and won't respect another person if they have no reason not to or even if that respect should be due. This isn't about so-called authority figures who do't deserve it.

Exactly!

How can a kid learn to respect someone who they don't know? That's where my point just above about helping the elderly/veterans comes into play. A lot of the time, just getting to know someone breeds respect. After all, since when do people not respect their those in their own social circle? If they don't, they don't stay in that social circle.

So some young upstart decides they are going to visit old Mrs. Jones, the semi-recluse widow who lives by herself down the street in the old house. They show up and spend 4 hours or so with her. During that time, they hear about how her husband died and left her with so little... they get to see the quilts she has made from old rags, and her quilting frame. They learn how she spends months just to make a single one. They see her face light up at the thought of having company. They hear about how she worried when her husband was off in Vietnam on the front lines, and could have died at any moment.

Maybe they discover that she's not a recluse... she never learned to drive and that old car in the driveway hasn't ran in years. She just can't go anywhere by herself.

Sure, there will be some who still won't get it, but many will... that old lady they made fun of is a person too. She's more than a caricature. She's real, and she has so much to teach those who will just listen. Maybe that kid will get a couple of buddies together and fix the sagging floor in her bedroom. Maybe that shaggy yard that rarely sees a mower will suddenly be nice and well-kept. Maybe that will cause her to sit outside in the sun... do you realize what a vitamin D deficiency can do to someone? Who knows, maybe ol' Mrs. Jones will be a part of the community again.

Isn't that happening worth it? I say one success like that is worth 1000 years of tuition.

Or maybe the crazy Korean vet with one leg that lives across from her can get a little help. He can let some of those demons in his head out safely by telling the young boy sitting there listening how his best friend died next to him in the foxholes... how he enlisted thinking it was just a way to get out of getting a real job, then realized what he had gotten himself into. Maybe, just maybe, the young boy comes away from the experience with a new appreciation of life and the old vet comes away feeling a little more appreciated for his sacrifice.

I know that's worth 1000 years of tuition.

And don't forget... the kid who does this winds up with a marketable skill. They go on to make ten times what they would otherwise have made without a skill. They are not using benefit programs; they are paying taxes, not for a tear or two, but for 40 years. So where's the downside? Sure, you spend $10000 up front to pay their way through a trade school, but then you get back $1000 a year for 40 years. 300% profit, and you benefit society doing it. That's a win-win in my book.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

if it gets kids out of the basement, and out of the house, I think it's amazing. If these kids don't start interacting with HUMANS, on a personal level, they will never be able to hack in it the real world. I even like the idea of the volunteer group working to make sustainability a priority in communities. Help with green projects that work and are cost effective.

You don't have to join the military, but you have to do something. I like that.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ketsuko

There are way too many people walking around who couldn't, wouldn't and won't respect another person if they have no reason not to or even if that respect should be due. This isn't about so-called authority figures who do't deserve it.

Exactly!

How can a kid learn to respect someone who they don't know? That's where my point just above about helping the elderly/veterans comes into play. A lot of the time, just getting to know someone breeds respect. After all, since when do people not respect their those in their own social circle? If they don't, they don't stay in that social circle.

So some young upstart decides they are going to visit old Mrs. Jones, the semi-recluse widow who lives by herself down the street in the old house. They show up and spend 4 hours or so with her. During that time, they hear about how her husband died and left her with so little... they get to see the quilts she has made from old rags, and her quilting frame. They learn how she spends months just to make a single one. They see her face light up at the thought of having company. They hear about how she worried when her husband was off in Vietnam on the front lines, and could have died at any moment.

Maybe they discover that she's not a recluse... she never learned to drive and that old car in the driveway hasn't ran in years. She just can't go anywhere by herself.

Sure, there will be some who still won't get it, but many will... that old lady they made fun of is a person too. She's more than a caricature. She's real, and she has so much to teach those who will just listen. Maybe that kid will get a couple of buddies together and fix the sagging floor in her bedroom. Maybe that shaggy yard that rarely sees a mower will suddenly be nice and well-kept. Maybe that will cause her to sit outside in the sun... do you realize what a vitamin D deficiency can do to someone? Who knows, maybe ol' Mrs. Jones will be a part of the community again.

Isn't that happening worth it? I say one success like that is worth 1000 years of tuition.

Or maybe the crazy Korean vet with one leg that lives across from her can get a little help. He can let some of those demons in his head out safely by telling the young boy sitting there listening how his best friend died next to him in the foxholes... how he enlisted thinking it was just a way to get out of getting a real job, then realized what he had gotten himself into. Maybe, just maybe, the young boy comes away from the experience with a new appreciation of life and the old vet comes away feeling a little more appreciated for his sacrifice.

I know that's worth 1000 years of tuition.

And don't forget... the kid who does this winds up with a marketable skill. They go on to make ten times what they would otherwise have made without a skill. They are not using benefit programs; they are paying taxes, not for a tear or two, but for 40 years. So where's the downside? Sure, you spend $10000 up front to pay their way through a trade school, but then you get back $1000 a year for 40 years. 300% profit, and you benefit society doing it. That's a win-win in my book.

TheRedneck

You sound like Mike Rowe. Marketing the trades is key to our countries survival. And it's jobs that machines won't be able to do. I think that is of great importance for the future. Fantastic post.

a reply to: network dude

You sound like Mike Rowe.

Hahaha, insulting Mike Rowe now?

J/K, I like the guy. He makes a lot of sense.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: TheRedneck

The thing is. . . she's a ####ing Senator NOW!

Why doesn't she push for this NOW!

(because she won't personally benefit from it)

Speaking of costs other than currency...
If a middle school, high school age student knows they have a pathway for higher education, and that their income level (or that of their parents) wont be a barrier, that Could lead less kids to decide to throw their life away by joining a gang or getting pregnant. Hope matters.

See this is how they get us. We are so used to being screwed over and just accepting it, that they can just trot out one of the Many common sense solutions we Could Have done a long time ago, and act like they Just thought of it... I bet she will have more good ideas too. These are the common sense solutions theyve been saving up for when they needed a victory. If they implemented them 20, 30 years ago, they wouldn't have that ammo right now when they need it and they would've been doing the American people a free favor from their perspective. This way, They get somethin out of the deal.

Insidious little bastards.

a reply to: TheRedneck

How is education socialized now? Who is getting a gov funded education besides military?

There is a huge difference between socialized programs and socialism. Socialism removes your right to sell your own work or own your business and even your land. Can you show one example of a socialized government that doesn’t lead to starvation and massive death?

How would you be able to tell if someone has met their time requirements if it is not overseen by a government employee? Are you going to take their word for it?

How many new gov personel would it take to oversee everybody who would take this shortcut?

Why would they get more than military personel?

This will never work. People need to earn an education. You can’t just give it away. It is pretty much the entire point of an education.

a reply to: Woodcarver

K-12 is nearly 100% socialized.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Woodcarver

K-12 is nearly 100% socialized.

That is not true, in some states it is paid for with local city property taxes. Not federal income tax money. In TN and 43 other states, a percentage is paid for with lottery money.

This isn’t the same as college education. Which is what the Senator and this OP is about.

a reply to: Woodcarver

How is education socialized now? Who is getting a gov funded education besides military?

Every single child through K-12.

We also have Pell Grants, which are government-funded payments to cover tuition and other expenses, based on income.

There is a huge difference between socialized programs and socialism.

Semantics. Pure socialism does not work (obviously, see Venezuela, the USSR, etc.), but socialized programs can and do work in some cases. Pure capitalism is not a good idea either... you need some socialism mixed in. The question is how much.

How would you be able to tell if someone has met their time requirements if it is not overseen by a government employee? Are you going to take their word for it?

You can take the word of the charities and simply do unannounced audits occasionally to make sure they are not cheating. In the case of helping an elderly person or a vet, they can just sign an affidavit that the person helped them. No other government program follows recipients around 24/7, and this one needs be no different.

Why would they get more than military personel?

They shouldn't. But they should get a chance to attend school by working for the privilege. That's the beauty of this plan over those proposed by Bernie Sanders et. al.: the recipient does actually have to do something to get the opportunity to attend school. No one is talking about a handout.

There are other ways to pay for something than with dollars. As long as someone has "skin in the game," I'm good with it.

TheRedneck

There was a program like this that existed for those getting into education to teach. It required the teachers to teach for 5 full years after attaining their degree. Then suddenly the requirements changed and the only college debt forgiveness given was for those who specialized in special education.

studentaid.ed.gov...

en.wikipedia.org...

Then it was ended completely in 2010 in the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 ( en.wikipedia.org... ) in a rider to that bill the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act ( en.wikipedia.org... ).

Let that sink in a bit. The program that enticed people to become teachers with Federal loan forgiveness of up to 80% was ended by an amendment and rider to the Affordable Care Act.