6th Generation Fighter Meta Thread

a reply to: paraphi

Rolls Royce is no longer part of the program and has not been since Sep 2012.

P&W and GE are the only ones getting money now.

a reply to: anzha

Aye. That's a fact.

a reply to: paraphi

Which means RR isn't a part of the US 6th gen fighter program.

AvWeek has a little slide show on the next gen fighter programs. They call Tempest FCAS (UK) and the Franco-German effort also FCAS.

aviationweek.com...

a reply to: anzha

The J-20 successor ought to make first flight between 2025 and 2030. Development is expected to take some time.

Whether its a gen 5+ or a gen 6 is as yet unclear.

How this fits with the idea the J-20 is going to get 400+ odd ordered is also unclear.

France and Germany to launch first contracts on future combat jets

www.reuters.com...

a reply to: anzha

more itty bitty euro bits:


www.defensenews.com...

double post

www.flightglobal.com...

$75M +/- to do concept studies.

a reply to: anzha

The Brits may be about to invite India to Team Tempest:

www.business-standard.com...

It should be noted that Japan and Britain signed agreements on future aircraft development. I'd expect them to join as well.

I'd be starting to sweat bullets, or MICA missiles, if I were Team FCAS if the Brits do that.

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: anzha

The Brits may be about to invite India to Team Tempest

Uhhmm, I wouldn't do that if I were Britain. India has a terrible track record when it comes to developing military systems. I think Japan is a much smarter option as well as Sweden.

a reply to: thebozeian

It depends on how they do it. If it's as a full partner, then it could be a disaster. It could be for piece work and some tech transfer - as in local build and a localized, exportable RAM/stealth tech - then it could be a huge win for both. DInero and longer production run to mitigate production costs would be a good idea.

I do agree Japan would be better, but India would need to be brought on first due to, umm, lead time.

www.businessinsider.com...

China wants a 6th gen by 2035.

And we're off, folks!

a reply to: anzha

The Navy may be embracing RR's POV on the 6th gen:

nationalinterest.org...

a reply to: anzha

Everybody should be pushing out six-gen until it matures. I hate generation talk anyway, but if it isn't already being tested and in advanced development, the odds of it being ready by 2030-40 is extremely small. So you're looking at more overruns and delays for NGAD if they go that route. The F-35 is still teething and won't have it's full Intended capabilities for another five years probably. Trying to skip ahead will be another disaster.
I could see the case for a quick -and-dirty Five-gen platform optimized for air-to-air taking only the systems necessary for that mission from already mature/near-mature systems from the F-35 systems (maybe a bigger array based on the same radar set, for example, an DAS based on the same systems, etc ). Something larger with better range, speed, and kinematics. You could get that in production within five-ten years and most of the development work is done and, more importantly, paid for. You'd be leveraging all the F-35 experience to your advantage. It'd be ready to take advantage of AETP basically from the get go, but could be configured for F135 for the first submodels. By nature using the same family of systems gets you already plugged in to the current battle-network. And it let's you completely retire (sell on international market?) all the existing Eagles/Beagles. A joint program with the Navy lets you dump the SHornets and SHornet upgrade money. Give those to the Marines or sell them to Canada.
Or have the Navy set their own requirements and have their own platform but require use of the same systems and subsystems that are already being drawn from to take advantage of the money we've already spent. Everything should be essentially off the shelf, or variations of something already ready for primetime, both for financial reasons and networking/data-sharing.

There is nothing in the air or expected in any number that would match up any time soon. Make that your 5+-gen platform. Wait for "next-generation" until you have a clue what it will need, and what is plausible, possible, and affordable.

a reply to: RadioRobert

www.janes.com...

The Tempest will have an unmanned Loyal Wingman.

a reply to: anzha

USAF should wake up and smell the coffee, too.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
There is still a numbers problem unless they are purchasing large numbers of VLO "Have Raider X" to supplement their manned aircraft strength. I doubt those airframes are going to end up much cheaper than manned alternatives. They're also mostly useless in the Pacific. So you're again up against the budget deciding when and where you spend.

Pushing your next gen purchases out town while you mature the needed tech let's you recap faster now with F-35's and makes the next series cheaper. That's what I'd advocate. Go all in on the F-35 and Raider. Those programs are mature and ready. Accelerating those buys let's you dump the Eagles, Bones, and B-2 entirely, saving money there to allow the purchase of large numbers of aircraft better than anything we're currently facing.

Continue development on bleeding edge tech with seed money while you recap, but don't push the next program to acquisition until we recap. You can run a 5gen Have Raider wingman just fine from an F-35 or Raider. Those programs are relatively mature. That should be the next program on the table. Semi-autonomous wingmen within a MADL network.

Chasing hard after a 6gen, DEW-ladden B-58 for PCA is idiotic right now (which basically assures we'll decide to do that while the fleet rots). It just takes money away from mature programs and the fleet in being. It's a repeat of the JSF debacle that got us here. Only it won't be determined to be "too big to fail", and we won't be able to pass the costs sharing along with foreign partners to mitigate the pain.
We killed legacy upgrades to AESA and MADL, killed legacy SLEPs, killed cruise missile programs, killed advanced AAMS, killed the F-22 line, etc, etc for 30 years to spend the money on JSF chasing the next big step "just around the corner". Now it's finally here, and instead of catching our breath, we're going to do the exact same thing chasing the 6 gen dream.

All still true

Italy attacks the Franco-German FCAS.

www.defensenews.com...

originally posted by: anzha
Italy attacks the Franco-German FCAS.

www.defensenews.com...

I think you mean complaining about being left out.

Italy is governed by a bunch of populists at the moment. And all they do is continuously bitching about others. No surprises there.

a reply to: moebius

Actually, I think the Italians have a point.

The German-French effort is clearly a push to create an consolidated EU programme. They (Airbus et al) have said as much. It's good for the French and Germans, but not so good for countries with advanced industries which will be left in subservient positions, and likely sucked into some vast French-German led industry. It's already happening. It's called Airbus.

With efforts and plans for closer EU military integration, the outputs of the German-French programme will be the rest of the EU. Can you see Italy being allowed to purchase an alternative solution in a decade from here?

a reply to: paraphi
And people think the UK are stupid or irresponsible for leaving the EU...
Its rapidly turning into a new Franco/German empire with all the other European nations subservient. Meanwhile Russia quietly white ants away at controlling the Germans and by extension the French.