should religion and education be kept seperate?

I'm curious as to what you all think about religious education and practice in schools. Should all schools in Britain and America be biased towards Christianity regardless of the ethnic makeup of their pupils, should schools be a religion free zone or should they teach awareness of all faiths equally?

My personal experience of British schools has been generally non-religious, much like my upbringing at home. At primary school we sang hyms in assembly and learnt the lord's prayer but had very little bible study. My headmistress at middle school was an aethest so instead of religious assemblies we had philosophical and humanitarian readings, and no bible study or any other religious education. At high school RE was optional, assemblies again were non religious and the only year we had any sort of spiritual education was the year before we picked which gcse's we were taking and that subject covered most major religions and also global and moral issues.

I don't feel it's done me any harm - I've grown up to be someone with a keen interest in spiritual matters and a fair amount of tolerance to different views and lifestyles. However if I had been forced down a christian path, I suspect that being the stubborn individual I am, at some point I would have rebelled, losing my innate leaning towards certain beliefsand struggling at some point in my adult life to reconcile those forced teachings with more mature and experience-acquired beliefs.

In my opinion, they should be kept seperate, especially in Southern, redneck areas of America. I live in Oklahoma, where Southern Baptists hold the majority of the territory of religious beliefs. I can't stand 'em. It's thanks to them that the idea that I was Satanist (when I experimented with Wicca) got out; it was also thanks to them that I nearly got arrested for "planning to kill" various people, simply because I'm a redneck and talk about guns and "shoot-em-up" video games, and such. Not to mention the fact that there's a huge discrimination towards anyone who isn't Christian. In my school, the Christians can preach the Bible to anyone, and the school board looks past it, and even favors their side when you punch them dead in the face for getting annoyed. However, if anybody else so much as mentions an alternate religion and what comes with it, you are likely to be suspended. It's amazing. From what I've heard from others around the country, it's similar everywhere else. I'm sick of it.

I think that religion should be kept out of public schools, but not God. But you can't really discuss or teach about God without some sort of religion backing Him up. So then, what do you do? There are many different kids and teachers with many different religions attending schools, so it's unfair to teach about one, and no time to teach about them all..as kids are there to learn about 'other' things first and if they need to learn about religion, then they can go to church, or asks their parents. I'm not against religions and certainly believe in a higher power, but I don't want my child to be brainwashed into some religion while attending school where she should be learning about math and science and other subjects. So it would thouroughly piss me off if she came home discussing God in the Christianity sense or other religion. I don't think kids should be forced to pray either, or forced not to. If she wants to pray then she should be able to, if not then that should be her choice as well.

While I was going to school, we had to say grace before we ate..and if we didn't we would get scolded. Now that I look back on it, I think that it was wrong..I didn't really understand praying and the need for it in school at such a young age therefore I feel as though it was not my choice or my moms choice, it was someone else making the choice for us all and punishing us if we didn't follow through..

There's tons more about how I feel about this, but I'll hold off til others reply..don't want to get ahead of myself here
Magestica

Great post, Lobo, you're a true spokesman for academia.

Religion seems to not be the question as there seems to be no trouble with religion in school as long as it is not the Judeo-Christian flavor. I believe Lobo's post speaks on behalf of the NEA and every other group or individual attempting to strip America of its heritage.

As far as Great Britain, I certainly can't speak for her, nor should I say what she as a nation should do.

Exactly, I think kids should be learning about important stuff first. I personally don't think having a religion during the 2nd or 3rd grade is all that important. I think having a religion is somewhat important if you want to understand life and the way that things work in it. I too think that if they want to pray then let them, its the same with singing to the flag. They should not be forced to sing to the flag everyday before school unless they feel the need to be patriotic.

Thanks everyone for your replies, some really intelligent points there I can relate to. I don't fully appreciate what the situation is like in American schools, it sounds as if the religious bias is far greater.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Great post, Lobo, you're a true spokesman for academia.

Religion seems to not be the question as there seems to be no trouble with religion in school as long as it is not the Judeo-Christian flavor. I believe Lobo's post speaks on behalf of the NEA and every other group or individual attempting to strip America of its heritage.

As far as Great Britain, I certainly can't speak for her, nor should I say what she as a nation should do.

Thomas you sound a little agrieved....

Do I take it you believe Christianity not only should be encouraged in schools, but that America should be a Christian only nation? I can understand if you feel annoyed that all minorities are encouraged whilst the 'mainstream' is pushed aside, but would you be happier if all faiths were given equal preference?

I agree with mags,
I think it should be kept aside. When i was younger in elementary, during christmas we were taught about How mary had jesus and so forth. We were even asked to do plays, i was a shepard.
My parents were not too happy that i was being taught about a religion that was not our own.
I believe religion should be taught in schools though at a younger age, and that being most if the worlds major religions. Not just one.
Its good for children to understand other religions and ethnic backgrounds.
My little Cousin was made fun of due to the fact that he wore a turban and had long hair. Kids would ask him if he was a girl. Teachers dont seem to care to tell the other children why they wear it. They would rather her us together and make us play shepards every christmas.
Deep

somewhat...I had a friend in the third and fourth grade who was Jehova *cough* Witness, and it was really sad to me at the time to see that she could not participate in alot of the things we did, like Halloween parties, Christmas and all. I could even sense her saddness and lack of understanding, as she still had to attend and watch, just couldn't join in. *I still got her a gift for Christmas hehe* So once again, and back to the thread, like Zero said, she had her religion that she abided by and she had to be excluded of certain things due to her beliefs. Now I at the time didn't fully understand why, and I believe that if we were praying and being taught the Christian *way* then we should have atleast been informed and somewhat taught of her religion so that we all might have a better understanding of her and her beliefs. Instead we were clueless for the most part and she felt like an outcast.
I hope I've made some sort of point here..I was trying to, I swear.
Magestica

Arc, this is a Judeo-Christian nation, societally speaking. That is how it was intended, anyway. The last few decades have seen an attack on that concept with a rewriting of history and a defamation of the Founding Fathers, creating the illusion that they were in actuality Godless, evil white men.

As far as religion in school, there will be religion in school. If nothing else, secular humanism will be pushed onto the children through the social reengineering program that is woven into the school systems. As a matter of fact, Mag, it starts early, in the beginning of their formative years.

It is not the schools' job to teach children religion, as a matter of fact, they cannot do that in any depth, as that would be asserting one of the denominations of Christianity as the "official religion" and the Founders were certain that such a move would create civil conflict. The acknowledgement of God, a time for prayer, and the basic stories in the bible would be fine. Going much farther, such as whether or not one should be submerged or sprinkled for baptism, would spark trouble.

As far as other religions, they had no part in the formation of this nation. There are other nations that do have ties to religions of their own region and that is fine. But this nation's laws, ethics and morals are rooted in the Judeo-Christian belief system.

Well, im not sure how the american education system works but here in canada were taught about alot of different cultures at a very younge age till about grade 12. Most of our junior school lives.
Everything from the japanese, greek, to american and canadian history. All in all its a good education system but is still lacking understanding of other cultures and religions.
Deep

No, religion should strictly be forbidden in public schools. If parents want their children to learn about religion they should waste $3,500 and send them to a private school.

Even if religion were taught in the public school system it will totally be biased towards Christianity and some Judaism. Jesus this, Jesus that. That's all the children will be hearing. They won't know what Islam is and who Muhammad is until they graduate from the prison of the mind called public school and do some learning of their own.

And I'll say it once and for all. America was not founded on Christian morals. Thomas Jefferson hated Christianity. He hated everything about Christianity, you can't blame him though.

I think it should be kept separate. Hell I studied 12 years in a Private Catholic School. Trust me it should be kept separate.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State (state-run schools). My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

Having religion tied in with education is unfair and wrong, as the mainstream religion in the country in question will always dominate. Through my own experience of state (public) primary and secondary school in the UK, our education system, in Scotland atleast, is biased towards Christianity.

In primary school, my classmates and I were forced to sing hymns, recite prayers, perform in Christmas plays and attend church for school services. The problem is that primary school teachers seem to enjoy intimidating their pupils, who tend to be about 1/3 their size, and children feel bullied into going along with whatever they are told to. When we were of primary school age, the teachers made us feel so small and weak that nobody ever protested, or refused to attend the Christian services.

Religion should, with the exception of Religious Education encompassing all faiths, be kept out of primary/elementary school, as the children are too young to understand that the choice should be their own as to what faith, if any, they should follow.

At the secondary school I currently attend, and in all Scottish secondary schools, RE is compulsory, although it is only for 1 hour every week. In this class we are taught about the beliefs and practices of most mainstream religions, ie; Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam. The school is still Christian orientated, however assemblies have no religious content and attendance of Christian services at the end of term is optional.

The education of young children, I feel, should be devoid of any religious influence, as they are at an impressionable age, and can easily be manipulated by teachers who want them to follow a certain religion.

The state of secondary education is not perfect, but it is fair, and nobody has Christianity thrust upon them, unlike in primary school.

I wonder, if the practice of, say, Voodoo, or Wiccanism was promoted in state schools, would people stand for it? There would most likely be outcry, so why is it any different from promoting Christianity, in a country like Britain where only around 10% of the population attend church?

The problem with religion in public schools is that school is about the student and learning not about ideals.

Many people have different ideas as to what the true aspirations are of a system of belief and in reality there is no real standard. Public schools in the South east for instance would perhaps present the Baptist opinion while those in the North east, consider the Protestant faith to be second to none.

One can then see where the problems would come and with respect to those of other faiths I would consider the problems much worst.

Sorry if it has already been said... i just want to reply to the original question first... I haven't read everyones posts... I will do so later...

I think Religion should be separated from any and everything...

Religion is and should be a personal choice.

At the moment religion has it's talons burried deep into everything that concerns this earthly existence. For instance in education and in POLITICS!!! (here in Holland a christian party with christian beliefs are ruling the country) Two examples that religion should be kept out of...

The first one education: controls what we and our decendants learn while we grow up... morals and values, right and wrong, good and bad... Influence by any religion should be prevented from influencing this process. Education should be about life's realities... and things we know to be truthfull and factual. (1+1=2, what goes up must come down, such things)

The second one Politics: Is what rules our lives... makes the laws that we have to live by... Politics is about ruling a country and satisfying the needs and obeying to the will of the public through referenda and open discussion... Influence by any religion should be kept from this process aswell...

I could go on with the media, and so on and so forth... but i think you get my point...

If i chose not to follow the rules of a certain religion (i.e. choose a religion) i should be able to grow up and live accordingly...

Democracy is a lie... we can not choose anything... choices are made for us... believing that your vote (the minority of votes of the few that realise this fact) will influence politicians to do your bidding is ignorant...

We have no freedom untill we seperate religion from processes and institutions which we all have to share with one another. For there are no alternative choices for those institutions processes.

Ah well... let's leave it at that for the moment... i'm beginning to ramble here...

Peace,

MrFreeze

[Edited on 4-7-2003 by MrFreeze]

This goes along the lines of seperation of church and state. I think that the school and religion should be seperate. If they were not, then we would have majour conflicts such as what LOBO discussed in his post.

If you have religion entered into the school's coriculum (sp?) then it will be all messed up.

I guess freedom of religion does not really have an affect in areas were LOBO lives.

Originally posted by LOBO
In my opinion, they should be kept seperate, especially in Southern, redneck areas of America. I live in Oklahoma, where Southern Baptists hold the majority of the territory of religious beliefs. I can't stand 'em. It's thanks to them that the idea that I was Satanist (when I experimented with Wicca) got out; it was also thanks to them that I nearly got arrested for "planning to kill" various people, simply because I'm a redneck and talk about guns and "shoot-em-up" video games, and such. Not to mention the fact that there's a huge discrimination towards anyone who isn't Christian. In my school, the Christians can preach the Bible to anyone, and the school board looks past it, and even favors their side when you punch them dead in the face for getting annoyed. However, if anybody else so much as mentions an alternate religion and what comes with it, you are likely to be suspended. It's amazing. From what I've heard from others around the country, it's similar everywhere else. I'm sick of it.

You have to be around those Southern Baptists all the time? Listen, I hurt for you. I am really sorry. For the record, I'm not anti-Christian. I just don't like Southern Baptists.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
No, religion should strictly be forbidden in public schools. If parents want their children to learn about religion they should waste $3,500 and send them to a private school.

Even if religion were taught in the public school system it will totally be biased towards Christianity and some Judaism. Jesus this, Jesus that. That's all the children will be hearing. They won't know what Islam is and who Muhammad is until they graduate from the prison of the mind called public school and do some learning of their own.

And I'll say it once and for all. America was not founded on Christian morals. Thomas Jefferson hated Christianity. He hated everything about Christianity, you can't blame him though.

This is the words of a devout anti-Christian who now wants his religion to inherit what the Christian has created.
I have a better idea than the parent "wasting" $3,500 sending their children to a school that will give the child a better education. They should take their tax (that is to say, get a school voucher) so they don't have to pay for their own school as well as the social reengineering instutions that pass for schools now.

Again, you show how much you've been lied to by the NOI. Thomas Jefferson was not anti-Christian, or else he was suffering from multiple personalities, seeing how he was in favor of the Gospel being spread to the Savage (Indian, or more correctly, Native American), and expected every student at the University of Virginia attend worship service of the particular sect (denomination) once a week.

When you don't know the truth, you'll swallow a lie ever time.

Thomas Crowne thank you for your stalwart defense of sanity and truth.

I hate it how people these days grow up believing that the founding fathers and revolutionary leaders were athiests and anti-religious.

Ben Franklin: Buried with his firm beliefs of ressurection and God written upon his epitaph.

George Washington: Continuous church goer and believer in the Episcopalian doctrine I believe it was?

Thomas Jefferson: Went to a Catholic College and gave money of his estate after death to it...

The list goes on and on...

Frankly I know for a fact, that if the founding fathers had any idea that the first Amendment would be abused to rid the nation of Religion all together. If they had a clue that something called "atheists" would come about.

They'd have written a clause stating "You have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion."