Heroin, the scourge of society, how do we fix it?

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

The money saved in emergency room visits, ambulance calls, law enforcement, judicial and incarceration would be more then enough to offset the costs of both housing patients, providing drugs and supervision.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

The money saved in emergency room visits, ambulance calls, law enforcement, judicial and incarceration would be more then enough to offset the costs of both housing patients, providing drugs and supervision.

That's a good point, I share similar sentiments.
The damage to society and human beings is a false economy by not investing in the root problems.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: tovenar

So do you have any solutions?
Not being snarky, genuine question because I felt so sad today. I am literally watching a girl the same age as my son die slowly.
Breaks my heart.

Yes, I do. But the solution is morally repugnant in the west.

In Asia, it is the death penalty for drugs. It's the only thing that works. SE Asia has been battling heroin since the Opium Wars with Great Britain 150 years ago. They are ahead of us on the curve, and they have arrived at the death penalty.

See, people in liberal democracies like to say "you can't legislate morality." But the truth is, everything the government outlaws or permits is providing someone a lecture on morality. If you have free clinics, with no shame & no blame, you are telling young people that it's no big deal and it's not really wrong.

And any attempt to legalize it, to domesticate it, cements its hold on society. Did legalizing prostitution take the pimps out of it in Nevada? Hell no, it made them millionaires; millionaires ready to commit arson and murder to control "their" girls. The two counties in NV where its still legal are looking at outlawing it all over again.

The "tax the hell out of it" scheme hasn't worked as planned in Colorado when it comes to marijuana. Visit Durango sometime. There are homeless teenagers in every parking lot; and dealers on every corner, who have pot for a fifth of the price in dispensaries.--- they pay no taxes, so illegal weed is all that street people can afford to get high on regularly. Property crimes are through the roof in Durango, as homeless teenagers who drifted to Colorado break in to homes to pay for weed. Durango thefts double the national average

One of the sadder aspects of the war on drugs is how police departments become financially addicted to it themselves. Without drug dealers or users to "fight," a lot of police forces would likely have their budgets cut in half, putting a lot of people who know how to use guns out of work. And that doesn't even take into account the bribery payoffs received and rampant theft by police officers.

That's why a more radical solution would probably be the most effective in this case. The cycle has to be broken, and a lot of people don't want that to happen.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck
I don't understand this. At what time in the history of mankind has the species or society benefited from not only repeating the same mistake over and over again, but saving someone from the same mistake only to have it repeated time after time? Freedom of choice needs to mean freedom to choose to die.

Right. You won't understand. Some mothers just raise their kids differently, I guess.

a reply to: Blue Shift

The war on drugs is a complete and utter fallacy.

Our respective nations have, to my knowledge, no Poppy fields or Coca plantasions.

The majority of the stuff enters into our nations via the very same forces that are allegedly there to prevent their existence aka Police, Customs, Politicians and their bureaucratic not to mention our alphabet agencies.

The cycle is not supposed to be broken simply down to supply and demand.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

So no examples of benefits to offer, ya? My point stands.

a reply to: chibsonguitarplayer


The reality is that a truly addicted person should be able to get to a safe place where an induced coma can be used during the withdrawal.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Who was it Switzerland who started a free heroin clinic like a methadone clinic here and all crime by heroin addicts dropped like 60 % in 1 year.

originally posted by: underwerks
Legalize lower strength and natural opiates (OTC codeine, be able to grow your own poppies, Kratom etc), stop filling up our prisons with drug users by decriminalizing drug possession, and offer free easily available treatment for everyone who wants to get off of opiates.

People that want to use heroin, oxycodone, oxymorphone, and other high strength opiates need to be assigned a doctor that oversees their use and take a mandatory education course on the dangers and the safe ways to use these substances.

Anything less than that won’t make a dent, and in reality will only make things worse.

That’s how you fix it. A common sense approach emphasizing education over punishment.

100% with you on this.

i didnt read the entire thread yet but i wanted to also say i like the lower strength and affordable. i dont know how to get that. not everyone has insurance. not everyone starts out doing it for recreation.
a lot of people wind up getting hooked on opiates after a surgery or an injury and then insurance changes or whatever stop them from being able to get their meds so they go to the street where it is cheap.

the war on drugs is not working. people are going to buy/sell/use drugs.
on the street its stepped on with who knows what. you dont know what kind of a hit youre getting.
a few days ago you could handle x amount and that same amount today can #ing kill you cause the strength is not the same.

Sent you a PM

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Just a thought. Back in the wild west days, and after, up into the 1900's you could by narcotics at the drug store over the counter. Even in the 50's and 60's, you could buy what was called paregoric, which was a tincture of opium. What kept it from being a scourge back then, when it was legally available? I am curious, as well.

a reply to: darkwingduck

Good questions I don't know the answers to but wish I did.

originally posted by: anonentity
The reality is that a truly addicted person should be able to get to a safe place where an induced coma can be used during the withdrawal.

But then what? Put them back into the same environment where they were encouraged and able to do the drugs in the first place?

My favorite drug study was done a long time ago with Vietnam veterans who were doing the heaviest drugs possible when they were in Vietnam. The moment they got their orders to go home, most of them simply tossed the drugs away and went back to reality and never did them again. So, sure, heroin is addictive, but social bonds are stronger. The worst is to be in a social milieu that encourages a person to stay addicted.

Ah, where to begin...
www.bnd.com...

This is a great editorial based on true events that have just recently occurred. One amendment that I can make is that it was actually Carfentanil, not Fentanyl.

www.history.com...

Also not stated is that the man working the door that night was found dead the next morning in his home...I can see the "opioid epidemic" taking a sharp turn at any moment. What we are dealing with is a weapon and I think it's fair to say there are millions of willing lab rats.

Portugal has had tremendous success....

www.nytimes.com...

www.theguardian.com...

news.vice.com...

..... largely by decriminalizing all drugs.

Today, Portuguese authorities don't arrest anyone found holding what's considered less than a 10-day supply of an illicit drug — a gram of heroin, ecstasy, or amphetamine, two grams of coc aine, or 25 grams of cannabis.

Instead, drug offenders receive a citation and are ordered to appear before so- called "dissuasion panels" made up of legal, social, and psychological experts.

Most cases are simply suspended. Individuals who repeatedly come before the panels may be prescribed treatment, ranging from motivational counseling to opiate substitution therapy.

It is much less expensive then 'war on drugs'.

One attraction of the Portuguese approach is that it’s incomparably cheaper to treat people than to jail them.

The Health Ministry spends less than $10 per citizen per year on its successful drug policy.

Meanwhile, the U.S. has spent some $10,000 per household (more than $1 trillion) over the decades on a failed drug policy that results in more than 1,000 deaths each week.

Quotes from above referenced articles.

Another factor in drug deaths - universal health care....

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
She's had treatment from the NHS of course but the root cause of her problems, her addiction to heroin, is largely untreated.

For a lot of them its the domain of psychology where the root cause of getting into such drugs is to be found.

Here is Gabor Mate (brilliant physician) on the subject....

a reply to: darkwingduck

For most, i imagine it was there simple common sense.

Back in those days people still had plenty of hopes, dreams, and aspirations to keep their minds occupied.

There is also the ability to supply and distribute the stuff. Distribution networks are somewhat more efficient in this day of age.

Non the less we did indeed have a hand in the creation of the golden triangle.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: chibsonguitarplayer
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy Rehab clinics are a huge business, and the cool thing about the 12 step program is it is free. No one runs it, no one makes money off it and it does not concern itself with politics or have outside opinions.

Not so great if you're an atheist, though, since some form of "god" is the only thing they present as a possible treatment.

AA is not a religious organization. I agree that the literature and many groups 'imply' 'god' but it isn't required and it is beginning to change as more and more members speak of their spiritual awakening being other then some anthromorphic, authoritarian god. There are lots of atheists and agnostics in AA.

See AA Agnostica & AA Beyond Belief - those are AA groups online.

There are other support groups without the religious trappings, however most don't have the quantity of meetings many addicts need for support in recovery.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
I personally think that with a drug like heroin people should be provided all the heroin they want free from the government. And if the addicts die in the process, well, that's too bad but at least they're not wrecking other people's lives while they're at it.

"

These people are living a hell on earth life and sad to even say this but, will probably be doing them a favor by allowing them to take their own lives with the free supply. Some people just were not meant to thrive in life and would be better off in the next.