GAO report says DoD must learn why pilots leave for commercial airlines

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Nope. Not really. Has far, far more to do with $$$.

Commercial pilots get paid way, way, waaaay more than AF pilots or naval aviators.

The gov in general is facing the problem they can't get the best skilled because they don't pay even remotely comparable salaries.

I am a 24 year veteran of the active military and reserves now retired. The major complaint that I heard, most commonly, was the more rank you acquire, the more responsibilities you acquire other than flying. The army viewed being a pilot as a qualification not a career path as they do today. They viewed you as officer first not a pilot.


When I separated form the active service, my first job was flying on a small commuter airline making about $800 a month. While on active duty, my salary was twice as much. Later, when flying for a regional carrier, my military salary if on active duty was roughly the same as a Captain on a CRJ-200 after 20 years of commercial flying. Sadly, I made a better salary working as an employee of a large public school system with a greater benefits package than being a pilot with much less responsibility.

originally posted by: stormcell
Airlines pilots have a seniority system where the pilots with the most hours get first dibs on the preferred routes. It's actually the short haul flights that are preferred over the long-haul international flights. There was one senior pilot who had the Hawaii to Las Vegas route, twice a day, 8am and 6pm. Basically flying business people to and from the islands every day.
Junior pilots would have to do the Los Angeles to Paris run. Which because they were younger was a novelty, but once they have a family the short routes are preferred.

I think that your seniority statement needs a little tweaking. It is not the number of hours but the time in the position you hold. I have flown with people with half the hours that I have that hold a higher seniority number.

Routes are bid on monthly with the first pick going to the pilot with the highest seniority number. Pilots with my company wanted to fly the schedule that generated the most flight hours per trip. Our target was 86 hours of flying each month. If we flew trips with 8 hours of flying per day, we could meet our 86 hour target in roughly 11 day. This meant that we would be off the remainder of the month. For people like me, this would afford me the opportunity to go play army and fly green airplanes several days in that month.

originally posted by: gariac
The pilot in the article did 22 years. He got a pension. Time to double dip as some people say. I think two decades is plenty of service.

Regarding killing people, it is a volunteer service. The USAF breaks things and kills people. You should know before you join.

A big problem with military jobs is the transfers. Tough to get equity in a house when you move every three years.

That's precisely why I rented my entire career. There is an argument that I was "wasting" money, but the peace of mind not having to worry about what the housing market did and not having to buy/sell a house every few years was well worth it in my opinion. By the time I got out I had a solid down payment saved and was able to buy a nice house with low payments.

originally posted by: 727Sky

originally posted by: watchitburn
Money

737 pilot with a major carrier can make 25,000 a month if they are willing to bust their butt. The money increases with 757, 767, and anything else bigger.. When I worked I never bid a line of time that did not have at least 18 days a month off.. Of course that took years of seniority... Junior bird men are lucky to get 10 days a month off on reserve and never know where they are going until they get the call..

Presently the world over has a qualified pilot shortage

Add work schedule which comes with seniority "ie" Work 3 days a week, coffee and even a meal during a flight..no one shooting at you or having to put up with some idiot who thinks he owns you.. Yep if DOD is that stupid then Houston/Washington we have a problem..

Too funny, I thought you were referring to United 1851.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: gariac
The pilot in the article did 22 years. He got a pension. Time to double dip as some people say. I think two decades is plenty of service.

Regarding killing people, it is a volunteer service. The USAF breaks things and kills people. You should know before you join.

A big problem with military jobs is the transfers. Tough to get equity in a house when you move every three years.

That's precisely why I rented my entire career. There is an argument that I was "wasting" money, but the peace of mind not having to worry about what the housing market did and not having to buy/sell a house every few years was well worth it in my opinion. By the time I got out I had a solid down payment saved and was able to buy a nice house with low payments.

If you put the difference between rent and a mortgage in a TSP, you probably came out ahead.

a reply to: gariac

Stupid.

Government Accountability Office must be full of Democrat holdovers. Maybe McCain influenced?


Ever since planes were invented the transition was for DOD pilots to go into commercial aviation as a pilot. Also, in the military as an Officer, all must continue to go up the ranks, or retire. Since there are fewer open positions than pilots along with the actual limitation of said pilots ability to lead, from progressing up the ranks, he / she has to retire.

Oh the $$$? Well yes, no or maybe. My Bud Captain in the Marines was stationed in Hawaii for 8 years. Had to go on a float now and then but the Feds paid for his back in the day $1100 / month Condo. He also got other "assistance" He also had the golf course and a 30' sailboat. The enlisted guys had it pretty decent too.

Oh so hes a silver spoon guy huh.

No. He had an option for DWI at 16 from da Judge. He could enlist in the Marine Corps or be sent to prison. He chose wisely, started out as a grunt at Paris Island, took the examination to get into Officer school. Feds paid for his BS and MS degrees and he retired [forced] out after 20 SIMPLY BECAUSE OF HIS WEIGHT! Although he passed his PTs with flying colors, he lost his Tom Brady jaw and that's part of the deal too.

Age as DOD doesn't want Turkey necks!

That's it

Good policy, well thought and no conspiracy.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Its not that simple IgnoranceIsntBlisss,

Its a matter of not wanting to blow up so many non-combatant civilians as they often do. Smoking complete bastards, and causing untold civilian deaths, are quite different from a psychological perspective.

I know someone who's making 350k a year as a test pilot (civilian) was working at Eglin for a while, why would he give that up to go on sea duty?

a reply to: watchitburn

They may get paid more on paper, but when even fellows like Sullenberger (of the Miracle on The Hudson flight) have to go before government panels, and explain that their pensions and working conditions are collapsing in real terms value, and that the airlines are not making any effort to correct that, while expecting the same service quality. Burnout rates are high among commercial pilots as well.

a reply to: Jake56

Government Accountability Office must be full of Democrat holdovers. Maybe McCain influenced?

Someday I hope Trumpers will accept responsibility for their actions. Blaming Obama is getting really old, especially since Obama is never given any credit. You cant have it both ways.

McCain had a fine history of military service. I don't appreciate his denigration. This is a man that risked death by refusing release when held captive. His broken bones were far more serious than say bone spurs.

originally posted by: gariac
The pilot in the article did 22 years. He got a pension. Time to double dip as some people say. I think two decades is plenty of service.

Regarding killing people, it is a volunteer service. The USAF breaks things and kills people. You should know before you join.

A big problem with military jobs is the transfers. Tough to get equity in a house when you move every three years.

Some get houses and simply rent them out to other services members. Pretty lucrative, especially in places like HI and AK.

It's far more than pay. The leadership is toxic as hell, and morale is as bad as I've ever seen it. Some of the things coming out of the leadership are disgusting, and getting worse. There are comments made by the Commander 8th Air Force that I'm waiting to see if someone can confirm about a B-1 ejection seat failure that made my jaw hit the ground.

If the Air Force wants to keep pilots, and maintainers, and anyone else, the toxic culture that it has become needs to be burned out from the top down. You have two standards, Officer, and everyone else. And if you meet certain criteria under Officer, you can get away with anything.

An enlisted member of one of my online groups posted a Letter of Counseling that he had to reply in writing to. His big violation? He had his bicycle in his doorm room (yes, it was in the letter). That's just one of several that I've seen, for just as stupid reasons. Those are part of their personnel jacket now and will play a role in promotion boards later.

Then we have Officers. Two examples from the last 30 days. The commander of Security Forces at Minot, a Colonel, was fired last month, after a box of Mk.19 grenades and an M240 went missing (the 240 was recovered this week). The reasons given were lack of trust and confidence in his ability to lead. Two weeks later, they announce that he's been assigned as Commandeer of Facilities and Security for AFSOC at Hurlburt Field, and they "have full confidence in his ability to command".

The second broke today. A Colonel in Medical (a Dr), who it was made clear was severely wounded in Afghanistan, after going on patrol with ground forces. Allegations were raised that he has been molesting two young boys (6 years old). The boys made statements about things happening that no 6 year old should know, there was physical evidence, including black eyes and bruising on both boys. The state attorney general, his command, and Air Force higher all declined to press charges, claiming there was "insufficient evidence" he did anything wrong.

You want people to stick around? As long as the environment is this god damn toxic, I don't blame one of them for running at the first opportunity.