The dichotomy of "choice" and the right of privacy over self

Okay, out of sheer morbid curiosity as to what more gems will come from this, I'll play...

originally posted by: dug88
Your personal beliefs are not science those are feelings. It doesn't matter when you believe life exists because it's based on some arbitrary feelings and no biological backing.

Well, you're not starting off well--just because there is no official determination of when life begins does not mean that I'm wrong to equate a developing fetus, who has its own unique, individual DNA, with being a unique being. But, you're right, there's no science that supports my opinion on the matter at all--I've done zero research into it, ever.

Next...

Your argument presumes that death is the worst thing that can happen to someone. A child is not only biologically dependent on their mother, a child is biologically emotionally, physically, financially and literally in every single way dependent on that mother for at least a good 18 years if not longer.

My argument presumes nothing about the quality of death as it pertains to all life experiences.

And I'm a father of two children, a 14-year-old and a 4-year-old, so I certainly don't need you to lecture me on what a developing or growing child needs in life.

I'm amazed that my son didn't die that whole year that it was only him and me at age two when his mom was deployed to Iraq...you know, since the father lacks this whole motherly dependency that you cite is necessary "literally in every single way." Wow, we sure dodged a bullet on that one.

Next.

If a mother can't provide every single one of those things for that time, they have no business bringing yet another life into the world.

Complete and utter horsesh*t opinion based on nothing reflected in actual reality. Yes, some parents suck, but you know what, great human being come from really terrible upbringings, and some really terrible people come from some really great upbringings.

You are making a false claim and pretending that it's some universal truth, and that is a blatant lie.

Next.

The problem with your arguments and the ones like yours is that they assume life needs to exist even if there's no means to nurture and look after that life properly. There's already enough people who don't get the proper care they need in the world. How is killing a bundle of cells before it even has a nervous system, the thing that makes it aware that it's actually alive, worse than a life that someone who is unable or unwilling to care for you properly could provide?

Again, my argument assumes and presumes nothing, you're just reading into it that which you want to, and then projecting that interpretation back on me. That's a silly, transparent tactic that doesn't work on me.

I also see that you use a false comparison of a fetus in development as "a bundle of cells," which is classic non-scientific garbage (depending on the stage of development, of course). But, since you cite a nervous system, a spinal chord forms around week five, if I'm not mistaken, so what you're saying is that since its brain, heart, and spinal chord are present at that same time, we can assume that maybe abortions after week 5 should be considered murder then?

See, what you're doing is basically advocating for the death of developing humans because you think that since not all human lives are great, these aborted lives are expendable. That's called...what's the word...oh yeah, heartless.

You're not doing your argument any favors thus far.

Also, a nervous system has never been proven to be the point when self-awareness occurs--that is opinion, silly.

Next.

These arguments all seem to assume that if some child is born instead of aborted then everything will be magically ok and a good thing will have been done.

Nope...again, no assumptions, just what you're reading into it based on your biased ideology on the topic.

In my short life, i've known people who got abortions and ones who ended up not and had children they couldn't really look after or didn't want. In these cases i've known of people who just abandoned their children, there was 2 people that had a child, didn't know eachother, now the mother works 7 days a week, the dad sits around doing drugs not looking after the child and the mother's parents have to come.over to watch their.daughter because he's incabable. In that situation at least 4 peoples lives have been #ed because of it and that child will not have a good life.

Oh, good, it's anecdotal evidence time! Okay.

I know a lady who got an abortion once--I call her "sister," based on the fact that my mom decided not to abort us because she has respect for all human life.

Anyhoo, that decision led to a massive downward spiral in her life where she ended up sleeping in her boyfriend's truck and doing drugs to try to deal (her own claim, not mine). She ended up even stealing my mom's car at one point, then abandoning it a week later...eventually, she agreed to check in to a girl's home to get herself clean and her priorities straightened out.

I also have very good friends who have been wonderful foster parents to many, many children, so of whom have parents like you describe, still in the area, but just don't want their kids around. They adopted two of those kids, one of whom was born addicted to heroin, and they have been thriving ever since. They also have seen then turn some foster kids' lives around, only to see them choose to go the path of their deadbeat parents upon coming of age and leaving foster care.

One of my very good friends is a human being created when his mother was raped--he's now a police officer and has had a hand in directly saving more than one human being's life.

See, anecdotal stories are great, but they're just that--anecdotes. They don't really have much of a place in discussions like this because everyone knows someone who did something.

For what it's worth, though, my sister regrets every day that she had that abortion, and wishes at the time that parental consent would have been necessary and that my mom or dad had talked her out of it. It would have save a lot of heartache.

Bringing a life you cant look after into the world is far more irresponsible and harmful to more people than ending the life of something that's not even aware it's alive.

That's not a universal constant, and there are many options concerning caring for young life other than killing it.

You people really don't seem to understand what having a child really entails. Again it's really easy to make humans, it happens thousands of times a day. Making decent humans requires effort a lot of people aren't willing to put in.

Who the hell do you think that you're talking to? I know this better than most, and without going into specifics about that, you really need to get off of your high horse and consider that you are talking to people who understand these things and might actually have a little more insight than you on aspects of the topic at hand.

I think "Chris" said it best in a comment on that blog post to which you linked:

Chris
October 5, 2013 at 6:03 am

The mere fact that we have to as a society decide when “life” deserves protection under the law shows the deterioration of society as a whole.

Best regards.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Hmmmm alright here's the thing. You're right we can go back and forth forever with facts and anecdotes and whatever we wish. Honestly i've seen #ty things happen because people decided to fet abortions i've seen #ty things happen because they didnt. I've got a friend who has to get a historectomy now because she got one. Either way it was her choice and that's the point. Every obe i know that's had one is in some way #ed from it. There's no right or wrong but the person brougbt about the situation should have the chpice of dealing with it...even if that's the way.

At this point it's not really about either it's about what we value. It comes down to whether we value life existing just for the sake of it or not. Personally maybe I am heartless because I dont. I really dont. I think the lives of the parents honestly come first before a child is born. Maybe it makes me heartless to place the value of a living person in the world's life over a developing fetus. If it does so be it. Things die all the time it is what it is.

And in all honesty of you really think there's no difference between an undeveloped fetus and someone who is alive and doing things in the world that's your choice...but Hmmm this honestly makes no sense to me. Everyday people value certain lives more than others their own included...yet in this situation apparently this is wrong to do...how many people in this world would you be willing to sacrifice your own or your family's life or happiness for? I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that list is pretty small....tell me honestly that if it came down to a choice between ending some life to protect your own or one of your family's what would you do?
Having an abortion is the same thing you're taking one life so it won't otherwise damage your own or the people you already care about. I never said it wasnt selfish. People make selfish choices every day though.

Unless you're out doing everything you can to save as many lives as you can every day...even possibly at the expense of your own....seems kinda hypocritical that you say all life is equally important.

originally posted by: dug88
a reply to: SlapMonkey

There's no right or wrong but the person brougbt about the situation should have the chpice of dealing with it...even if that's the way.

That's fine--you can choose to fight for that choice, I'll fight to defend the defenseless. That really is what it boils down to with me.

Well, that, and the fact that I subscribe to the belief that the right to life is an inherent liberty, and if someone chooses to rob someone else of that right before they're even born, I lose a certain level of respect for that person (unless, like I said, it's a medically necessary issue).

Don't mistake that for me saying that every life is equal, though, as you have done and I will address.

It comes down to whether we value life existing just for the sake of it or not. Personally maybe I am heartless because I dont. I really dont. I think the lives of the parents honestly come first before a child is born. Maybe it makes me heartless to place the value of a living person in the world's life over a developing fetus. If it does so be it. Things die all the time it is what it is.

I know that this is a strawman, but I just wonder how you apply that flippant attitude toward life to things like school shootings, or family members who die, or friends, or anything.

Maybe my overabundance of empathy gets the best of me, but like I said, I tend to err on the side of defending the defenseless. Yes, I understand that death is a part of life, and that at its foundation, "it is what it is," but that doesn't mean that I just have to willingly accept that some people choose to extinguish the lives of others just because a court ruling says that it's legal.

Being legal doesn't make something just or right. But, again, opinions...

And in all honesty of you really think there's no difference between an undeveloped fetus and someone who is alive and doing things in the world that's your choice...but Hmmm this honestly makes no sense to me.

It probably makes no sense because that's not what I said.

Of course there are physical differences, intellectual differences, etc., etc., but that doesn't change the fact that whatever it is that sparks life (literally...light has been recorded as happening at the time a sperm fertilizes an egg) is present in the zygote stage and beyond, even if there is a biological reliance on the mother's body through birth.

I'm talking about protecting life--defenseless life that is being destroyed by the very person supposed to care and protect the same life. I make no apologies for that.

Everyday people value certain lives more than others their own included...yet in this situation apparently this is wrong to do...how many people in this world would you be willing to sacrifice your own or your family's life or happiness for? I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that list is pretty small....tell me honestly that if it came down to a choice between ending some life to protect your own or one of your family's what would you do?
Having an abortion is the same thing you're taking one life so it won't otherwise damage your own or the people you already care about. I never said it wasnt selfish. People make selfish choices every day though.

First, along with an inherent liberty being the right to life, that also comes with the inherent right to self defense--of course I would protect my life with deadly force if necessary, but what you are conflating are the major differences: A developing human being didn't ask to be born nor did it do anything wrong, but someone who chooses to put my life at risk and dies because of it deserved that fate because of their own actions.

The developing human did nothing to earn their death at the hands of another--their mother, for all intents and purposes.

That said, only in self-defense, the defense of my family, or the defense of someone else in life-threatening danger (notice an emphasis on "defense?") would I ever consider taking a life justified, and even then, I think that it would haunt me for the rest of my life if it came down to that. Comparing those scenarios to abortion is intellectually dishonest at best.

And "selfish" doesn't even come close to defining that which elective abortion is.

Unless you're out doing everything you can to save as many lives as you can every day...even possibly at the expense of your own....seems kinda hypocritical that you say all life is equally important.

Again, I didn't say that, you inferred it from my comment, apparently based on your own ideology and expectations of what I meant instead of reading what I actually wrote.

And for the record, even though I may not be a first-responder, I train (and instruct) the things that I do in life not just for self-defense, but also to help others if I ever see them in need. I'm no hypocrite when it comes to how I value life, no matter how you may read into things that I write without knowing me at all.

I give you credit, though--you obviously put a lot of thought into your response judging by the amount of edits--it's hard to word responses without them coming across as trolling and inciting on this topic, so thanks for the care in that.

We obviously disagree, though, so I'm just going to leave it at that. I wholeheartedly appreciate, though, that you did not start slinging insults like most do in these discussion.

Best Regards.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Ya I apologize if im coming across like an asshole I dont necessarily mean to I can just be pretty dour.

I wasn't trying to make a strawman argument...I maybe misinterpreted what you meant...when you day you believe in the right to live as said in some declaration...I take that to mean you value the right to any life existing just because it exists. I don't. My comparison with a defending your self in a threat I feel still stands. For the people choosing to do this. An unborn child does hold the same threat as someone attacking them, they may not be concious of what they're doing which does make it a pretty sad and horrible situation all around. Just because it's not an immediate threat to someone's physical health doesn't mean a danger doesn't exist.

The problem I have with it all is from what i've seen, it's honestly not an easy choice to have to make. Everyone I know that's done it, didn't do it lightly, it was never just an easy way out. Honestly it's one of the hardest things I've seen people have to do, I honestly don't know if I could do it if it were possible to me to get pregnant. I've never seen someone come out of it cheerful and happy like they just dumped their problems away with out a thought. It's something they talk about and have regrets over for years after.

I've seen people who go off the way people on this thread have surrounding terrified girls screaming at them calling them murders as they walk in to do something they already feel like # about. I've seen them standing on the streets in groups with signs just screaming at random people. These things aren't helpful, screaming at people calling them murderers, comparing them to drug addicts or people who commit suicide is ridiculous. The only thing these things have in common is that humans have done them all for thousands of years in whatever ways they could.

I don't think drugs or suicide should be illegal either. I dont think their comparable to abortion, and honestly there's lots of reasons why drugs are illegal while abortion isn't. Money's a big one, for both, especially in America where I imagine clinics make big bucks off of abortions. I think as far as general acceptability goes the societal consequences are far higher having large numbers of children in foster care and in those services. In places where abortions are illegal you get packs of homeless children roaming the streets robbing people ending up in gangs and such. You get women who break the laws and pay for shady doctors in back alley clinics where in the end both the mother and baby end up dead and generally I think most people realize the consequences go far beyond a fetus dying.

As much as social programs and all these.things are supposed to help, the reality is they're underfunded, abused by people and the people that go through them do not usually experience very quality lives. Adding yet more strain to that system by bringing another life into it because you can or adding yet another person who can't be cared for into a world that already has millions of people starving, living in abject poverty barely able to feed themselves. I just honestly how all of that can be ignored because Ooohh spark of life a human was made. Life's been around a long long time and it's been making new life for a long long time and you know that is really awesome. Honestly life is amazing, I went to school for biology because I find life amazing, i spent several years hanging out studying bats because their awesome. All life is incredible, but it's not special. Everything on this world is unique in it's own way and personally if I could exist without making anything else die I would, but my existence causes death every day, everyone and everything causes something else to die so it can keep existing. Even our own bodies probably have more foreign things living in us than things that are actually part of our bodies.

Human life is no more special or unique than any other life on this planet, we all come from the same place everyone and everything.

I don't think the decision to take any life should be made lightly and if it doesn't weigh on your conscience afterwards, there's definitely something wrong with you, but society, has at different times in history, accepted it for different reasons, they may not always be good reasons and I definitely wouldn't agree withany of the reasons but it is what it is and I do feel like in this situation it is right to let the person whose life will be impacted.by this make the choice, without being screamed at for it.

a reply to: dug88

Reading your responses I have noticed that your answer to deny that developing child (mind you at 3 weeks has it's own heart beat, it's own CNS is developing) kill it to protect it from the cruel reality of the world, because it will be a determent to society, for the greater good, so much for the sanctity of life - calling them clump of cells makes it easier I guess. This still contradicts all laws when it comes to murdering a woman who is pregnant, no matter gestation period it is always a double murder.

I do get what you mean about bad parents, I have seen it first hand with some of the people I have had to deal with over the years, I digress to the point that there are numerous programs that support the mothers and children. The problem comes back to not talking responsibility for their actions, societies stigma the way they treat teens and single mothers, but killing an unborn child because it makes it easier on society is not the answer. There is not a scarcity of resources either, that is a manipulation by governments and corporations for power and greed.

So let me ask you this then if it is all about the "greater good" (which is in complete contrast to the founding principles of our nation mind you) what about seniors? should they be killed as well because they are a burden or potential burden to society? Where do you draw the line?

a reply to: Grimmley

Hmmm ya laws sure are #ed there's definitely contradictions everywhere.

Call it call it what you like...I never denied you weren't taking away someone's chances at life I recall saying fairly clearly it was a matter of which lives were more valued by society to save. Clearly for most of society here it's not the fetus.

Ya and you know you can't please everyone whatever these people choose tondo they'll face stigma in some way. Leaving a child to a social program is another way of avoiding responsibility.

And whatever the cause for it there certainly is a lack of resources out there. It may be manipulation it may be whatever....doesn't mean it's not the reality of the world and there aren't millions being affected by it right now. Im lucky enough to live in a western country and have a decent job. I work six days a week 8-10 hours a day and I manage to acquire enough resources to support my self. I don't make anywhere near enough to even begin to think about supporting children. Every day I see people doing far worse than me who work just as hard if not harder who can't even get by as well as me. That's just here.

I have a friend who lives in a city with 80 million people. That's more than twice the people that live in my entire country my friend works 12 hours a day six days a week and makes a third of what I do. My friend's wage is considered above average for that city. That means for the most part i have more resources than the majority of the 80 million people that live in that city. This is one city in one country. I've got friends in places where running water to your house is unheard of. Many many people in this world lack the most basic of resources you couldn't even imagine not having.

There are more people in this world right now who can barely afford to survive than not, whether you like to admit it or not. It's easy to forget about the billions of people that live around the world and the conditions they live in.

Even in north America or Europe it's easy to forget about the millions of people one pay cheque away from living on the street, having to choose between rent or food, trapped in #ty job that will break them because there really is no other choice.

You take a random sampling of the average person in the world chances are having a child would take far more resources than they could acquire. It's always been the case throughout history in most cultures if you lacked resources to survive it was inevitably the children that were left to die. It still happens in many places in the world.

Now im not sure what nation you speak of, but im assuming America, England or Canada...probably America, but in any case all of those countries are either democracies or a republic. Both forms of government are ran with the greater good of the people in mind. And in the case of America, my understanding may be wrong but, from what I know it was founded as a republic so people would have fair representation. The declaration of independence looks like a list of things guaranteed for the greater good of the people in the country to me...but again I may be wrong.

It's really nice and comforting to believe that all the world's problems are caused by evil manipulative governments and if we could just stop them the world would be a wonderful place where everybody has everything they need. It really makes it seem like there's a purpose and reason behind all the suffering in the world and a way we can stop it.

The fact is, the earth really isn't that big. It's not and two thirds of it are covered with ocean. That leaves just a third of the planet humans can even begin to think about living in. Ok now out of that one third we've got two uninhabitable polar regions that take up thousands of square kilometers each, so that's out then you got your deserts you've got the Mojave.im north America, the Sahara.in Africa, the Gobi in Asia all of which take up vast swaths of their respective continents those are just the big ones, then you've got barren mountain ranges, uninhabitable wilderness an good number of other environments unsuitable to live in.

Ok so lets cut that one third in half, being generous, so about one sixth of the planet is actually usable by humans. Now I'd say probably the most important resource for people would be clean, drinkable water, so that immediately narrows livable land down to somewhere near a river, watershed or underground resevoir of potable water. So that cuts that one sixth down by a hefty margin. Next up food.

So there's currently over 7 000 000 000 people in the world and this is growing at an exponential rate. So not only do these 7 billion people currently living need somekind of habitable area to live so will their offspring and so on and so forth. But, humans need food, a lot of food and humans eat plants and animals. So we also need land to produce all this food people eat. Now, as far as plants go, there's only so much arable land in the world that will actually grow food and we lose more of this all the time to erosion and development so we can fit more people, the problem is now there's less land to produce plants to eat. Humans also like to eat animals which require their own plants to eat and land to raise them. We need enough land to produce enough plants and animals to not only feed 7 billion people but also to store enough to ensure disaster won't cause starvation. So that's a # of a lot of land already needed out of that one sixth of uselful land on earth.

Now there's all the other resources required for the large scale production needed to maintain the already hefty global population. You've got your renewable resources, most food and plant fiber products, wood etc., fall under this. Which means we can produce more, but this requires time, space and other resources. Then you've got your non renewable resources, metals, minerals, petroleum, natural gas. These ones are finite there's only so much of them inside the earth and once they're gone they're gone. These are used for everything.

Then as you mentioned, there's manipulative governments and corporations fighting for control of these limited resources needed for humanity, which ends up meaning there's even less to go around for everyone. It's not realistic to expect this to change in ours or even our children's lifetime. This is the reality of the world right now and it's not changing for the better any time soon.

You can ignore all these things if you want and act like the world is a giant limitless place that hold as many humans as we can stuff in but that's really not the case. You just gotta look throughout history at pretty much any island nation and what happened when all the stuff on their islands ran out. Unfortunately earth is kinda like a big ass island, there's only so many things on it and there's nowhere else to go when we fill it up and take everything.

I mean at this point we've mapped out the planet fairly thoroughly when you hear geologists, biologists and other scientists talk about how we're running out of #, it's not some agenda, it's because these people spend their time cataloging and figuring out what is on the planet and most scientists are actually fairly interested in what they do, hence spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of their life to become them. Governments may use them for their agendas but the world really truly is becoming a #ed up place.