S-400 Threat

I could post this in weapons but I don't frequent that forum and its related to Aircraft.

Please don't turn this into a right or wrong re: Airstrikes/CW use.

So the S-400 is deployed in Syria and yet 150 missiles got through. It is my understanding the S-400 is there to protect Russia and Syria use the older S-200 so I think that knowing the US don't want to attack Russia in Syria they did not fire them.

However, would they have turned the radars on to ensure that Russians were not targeted or would they have other assets for that?

It seems the aircraft launched stand off cruise missiles but would have still been in range of S-400, also reading the weapons deployed, there are some that are neither Tomahawk or Storm Shadow/SCALP - could these be the JASSM or bombs from B-2s?

I am going to put this down to Russia not needing to deploy S-400 and thereby not allow sniffer aircraft to gain intelligence on the system however this will not stop a plethora of posters suggesting the S-400 isn't what it has been sold as, a dangerous assumption.

Thoughts on this, do you think the IAF may have put an F-35 up to see what its sensors can see?

a reply to: Forensick

They used two B-1s out of Qatar that deployed 19 JASSM-ER. As for the S400, they also have other systems in country that can be used to watch for incoming and give enough warning for the S400 to go active. If I remember correctly the S400 can target using other systems radar, but I'm not positive on that.

a reply to: Forensick

I think there was a 0% chance that Russia was going to debut the S-400 performance on American stealth aircraft. Russia has spent a lot of money marketing this system, they're not going to risk a poor performance.

If this thing didn't perform up to part it would have a huge impact on sales and diplomatic trades.

S400 are there to protect Russian military not the Syrian army.

IF there were a strike on Russian targets there would be a whole different story and America would have started a war on a whole level which it probably can’t finish.

Russia isn’t going to pay $400 million to defend against $100-200 million in missiles.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Forensick

They used two B-1s out of Qatar that deployed 19 JASSM-ER. As for the S400, they also have other systems in country that can be used to watch for incoming and give enough warning for the S400 to go active. If I remember correctly the S400 can target using other systems radar, but I'm not positive on that.

They claim B-1s but they sure had a lot of strange air traffic that night that did not point to it being just B-1s

Well, they admitted they handed out a standard deconfliction notice without specific tasking information. They've been doing a pretty good job on deconfliction, so I imagine there are standing orders in the Russian side regarding engagement. Depending on the profiles, by the time radar techs recognize what's happening, it might be too late. Battery commanders have to decide to shoot or scoot when they aren't sure if they represent a DEAD target themselves. The Russian military is even more centralized than our own, so at the same time they're probably calling around at 4am trying to find someone willing to put their head on the chop block to authorize engagement when it's not clear they are directly targeted because heaven knows that's what we'd have to do.
I wouldn't read too much into the Russian air defense systems' effectiveness based on these past few raids.

It's clear the air-strikes successfully destroyed their targets, however it is not clear how many missiles were shot down. The US will probably claim no missiles were shot down, Syria/Russia will probably claim that most missiles were shot down.

I would expect the Russians to attempt to shoot down the missiles, but it's pretty unlikely they would try to shoot down the launch platforms themselves. EDIT: Nope, apparently Russia did not attempt to shoot down the missiles.

In addition, it was a very large scale attack including with very low-observable missiles such as Storm Shadow, SCALP, and JASSM-ER, not just the less-stealthy Tomahawk. All of these fly at extremely low altitude at high-subsonic speeds.

~110 sometimes stealthy cruise missiles coming from several directions at low altitude flying routes that minimize radar exposure, with decoys and electronic warfare support is going to be something that is VERY hard to defend against even for the very best air defense systems, which Syria/Russia combined do not have in Syria (not dense enough).

If these were launched directly at the S-400 system (or even only a fraction), with time-on-target the same for the missiles, then the S-400 system would probably be destroyed. This isn't an indictment on the S-400, it's just that this was a HUGE set of airstrikes.

According to Syria they downed 71 out of 103 missiles tracked.

If this is true then there is no doubt that russia have helped Syria with upgrades. Because Syria mostly have very old radars and air defence assets.

71 hits out of 103 missiles tracked are very good stats for Syria on its own. If you considder what their inventorry is.

Russia mentioned today that they might sell the S-300 favoritt to Syria.
With this system Syria will be even more capable of reaching targets used to deliver missiles from Jordan airspace.

originally posted by: xstealth
a reply to: Forensick

I think there was a 0% chance that Russia was going to debut the S-400 performance on American stealth aircraft. Russia has spent a lot of money marketing this system, they're not going to risk a poor performance.

If this thing didn't perform up to part it would have a huge impact on sales and diplomatic trades.

Hahaha. The S-400 is the russian equivalent of thaad. Overrated, highly touted technology that works half the time. No matter the country, the games are always the same.

originally posted by: spy66
According to Syria they downed 71 out of 103 missiles tracked.

If this is true then there is no doubt that russia have helped Syria with upgrades. Because Syria mostly have very old radars and air defence assets.

71 hits out of 103 missiles tracked are very good stats for Syria on its own. If you considder what their inventorry is.

Russia mentioned today that they might sell the S-300 favoritt to Syria.
With this system Syria will be even more capable of reaching targets used to deliver missiles from Jordan airspace.

if this is true

a reply to: Whoisjohngalt

It is true. Syria have given the number and location.

originally posted by: C0bzz
It's clear the air-strikes successfully destroyed their targets, however it is not clear how many missiles were shot down. The US will probably claim not missiles were shot down, Syria/Russia will probably claim that most missiles were shot down.

I would expect the Russians to attempt to shoot down the missiles, but it's pretty unlikely they would try to shoot down the launch platforms themselves.

In addition, it was a very large scale attack including with very low-observable missiles such as Storm Shadow, SCALP, and JASSM-ER, not just the less-stealthy Tomahawk. All of these fly at extremely low altitude at high-subsonic speeds.

~110 sometimes stealthy cruise missiles coming from several directions at low altitude flying routes that minimize radar exposure, with decoys and electronic warfare support is going to be something that is VERY hard to defend against even for the very best air defense systems, which Syria/Russia combined do not have in Syria (not dense enough).

If these were launched directly at the S-400 system (or even only a fraction), with time-on-target the same for the missiles, then the S-400 system would probably be destroyed. This isn't an indictment on the S-400, it's just that this was a HUGE set of airstrikes.

Good post. Low flying stealthy missiles like JASSM and Storm Shadow will be a challenge even for the most advanced SAM systems. They might be able to get some of them if they get close enough but multiple missiles will be getting through if enough of them are used.
Even against older non stealthy missiles like Tomahawk if enough of them are used some will get through. Add in some jamming and lots of missiles and the chances of shooting them all down is low. Plus the SAM system only has a limited amount of missiles once they run out they aren't shooting anything down until they reload which can take some time.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Whoisjohngalt

It is true. Syria have given the number and location.

One side says most of the missles where shot down, the other side says none of the missles were shot down, who knows?

www.aljazeera.com...

Well by the video we can see at least 30 hit. So that’s 30 targets hit 30 successes.

Sounds alright in my book. You shoot a shotgun with 100 bbs it only takes one to down a bird.

originally posted by: xstealth
a reply to: Forensick

I think there was a 0% chance that Russia was going to debut the S-400 performance on American stealth aircraft. Russia has spent a lot of money marketing this system, they're not going to risk a poor performance.

If this thing didn't perform up to part it would have a huge impact on sales and diplomatic trades.

I don't think marketing had anything to do with it, it is there to defend Russian interests and they were not threatened.

I know we will never find out, but I would love to know if the Russians turned it on.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Do you mean like something similar to the THAAD system for radar detection? If I remember correctly THAAD uses 3 vehicles all of which house a different system to detect and lock onto a target.

a reply to: Forensick

They probably didnt. What would be the point? Why let globalhawk get that data.

a reply to: Zaphod58

And also is the S-400 comparable to modern American systems? Or is it more comparable to a patriots system design but with modern components?

a reply to: Forensick

Russia most likely had both their S-300 and S-400 systems active and tracking the missiles heading, but they dident have to turn on their targeting beam because non of the missiles were a threat to them.

When team US fire a 103 missiles i doubt they would sit in the dark hoping that nothing would hit them... They would want to be able to monitor and be prepared.
It wouldent make sense that they would turn their systems of 🤔

I'm surprised they even have them there at all seeing as how all the older systems accounted for 71 missiles...