Nations Wince at Kyoto Reality

Nice idea ... can't be done realistically.
Pie in the sky.

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Nations Wince at Kyoto Reality

Zero Hour to Reconcile Economic Pain With Treaty's Clean-Air Goals
By TAMSIN CARLISLE in Calgary, Alberta, and JEFFREY BALL in Dallas
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL (paid registration required)
February 16, 2005
Excerpt:

With the Kyoto Protocol set to take effect tomorrow, a disturbing
realization is hitting many of the world's biggest global-warming
suspects: Trying to meet their obligations to limit global-warming
emissions under the treaty is proving a political and economic
nightmare.

What is confronting many of the industrialized participants is the
fact that turning their abstract environmental promise into tangible
economic policy is extremely unpopular with politically powerful
interests. Joining the Kyoto club was the easy part; now
governments have to figure out how to divvy up responsibility
for the cuts among companies and consumers that produce the
emissions. Particularly since economies -- and emissions -- in
many of these countries have grown significantly since the pact
was negotiated in 1997, the process is producing a nasty
political backlash.

Few nations among the roughly 130 participants are having as
tough a time figuring out how to clean up their acts as Canada,
a country whose European-style environmental pledge is crashing
into the reality of its American-size energy appetite. Canada has
pledged under Kyoto to cut its global-warming emissions to 6%
below the 1990 level by 2012. But its emissions actually are
rising, at an average rate of 1.5% a year.

Canada is struggling to meet its obligations to cut carbon-dioxide
emissions under the Kyoto Protocol. One problem is that its growing
industry extracting huge oil deposits from sand -- like the Athabasca
dunes - requires huge amounts of fossil-fuel energy.

If Canada's economy and global-warming emissions continue growing at
the current rate, its Kyoto pledge will require it to cut emissions to 35%
below what they would have been in 2012 with no action, says Pierre
Alvarez, president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.


The culprit behind the squeeze: stronger-than-expected economic
growth in a nation whose residents consume energy nearly as
voraciously as their neighbors to the south -- and whose oil industry,
already one of the world's largest, is ramping up production in a way
that is particularly harmful to the atmosphere.

Canadian Environment Minister Stephan Dion said that, of all the
countries bound by Kyoto, Canada has the toughest emissions
target, but that he is confident his nation can meet it in a way that
strengthens the economy. Mr. Dion said industrial emitters will be
required to meet "demanding but fair and achievable" emissions
targets.

But Finance Minister Ralph Goodale, testifying before a
parliamentary environment committee last week, said Canada
needs a "more robust plan" if it is to meet its targets. Calling the
current blueprint "a work in progress," he said the government
needs to reorganize a significant amount of already-booked
expenditures to get "more bang for the buck."

Canada's predicament points to a headache faced by many
countries bound by Kyoto. The European Commission, the
European Union's executive body, says Ireland, Italy, Portugal
and Spain need to ratchet up their pace of emissions cuts if
they are going to fulfill their pledges. European nations have
faced industry pressure against cracking down too much on
fossil-fuel-powered economic output. Even the United Kingdom,
which is on track to meet its Kyoto goals, yesterday reaffirmed it
plans to loosen limits it is imposing on companies, in response to
industry lobbying.

Canada is in a particular pickle. Not only does the average
Canadian consume more energy than does the average European,
but Canada, unlike most European nations, is a huge oil exporter.
A growing portion of those exports comes from Alberta's "oil sands,"
vast deposits of sticky, black grit that constitute the world's biggest
known source of crude oil outside Saudi Arabia. Extracting and
transporting this molasses-like crude requires loads of electricity
and steam. That requires burning lots of fossil fuel -- and that
produces massive quantities of carbon dioxide, the chief suspected
global-warming gas.

Full Story


[edit on 2/16/2005 by FlyersFan]

Agreed. Canada will have problems to meet whatever targets it establishes for itself. But is it better to do nothing and continue this downward spiral the environment is taking?

Interesting article though. Thanks.

If much of Canada's economy is relying on pollution-heavy oil production, what can they really do? Make everyone ride bicycles while they continue to extract oil?
Seems to me they should have thought this through before they signed. And, why did all these countries feel the need to sign?
I wish them well.

I think it is likely that Kyoto will either become another corrupt treaty...or a treaty that NO ONE pays any attention to...or both.

DontTreadOnMe:

As a Canadian, I will tell you this much:

We will figure out how to meet our requirements, and do it without destroying our economy or our standard of living. It's just another example of where we will show the world how to do things

Osiris

PS: I'm not putting any other nation down, just bragging on Canada's behalf, because most Canadians don't do it enough IMHO. You should look up all the stuff invented by Canadian's one day... then remember our population base

"It is better to aim for the stars and hit the moon, than to
aim for the trees,and hit the ground."

Even if they don't reach the very high goal they have set for themselves, any improvement over the current situation would be a great achievement.

The other option is to just allow the emissions to continue to grow higher and higher and that helps no one.

I find it so funny that these countries are going to hit to their economies to have a likely result of a .07 temp drop of the projected temp in 2050. Best case it would result in a drop of 1/10 of a degree in 2050.

And the number 2 emission producer China gets a free ride on Kyoto having to make no cut backs.

Its great that they show a real interest in the environment but Kyoto aint going to change a thing. I will make some countries money though as the either sell off they unused emission rights to countries like Canada that might need them or get a economic boom like China as industries will move there to avoid any limits.

They should focus on the development of things like better solar, and wave power that might make a really help.

[edit on 17-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]

[edit on 17-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
I find it so funny that these countries are going to hit to their economies to have a likely result of a .07 temp drop of the projected temp in 2050. Best case it would result in a drop of 1/10 of a degree in 2050.

Shadow,

For the record, oil isn't a HUGE part of the Canadian economy. Additionally not all the oil we produce comes from the tar sands. We have large reserves offshore (but in our waters). Additionally we could reduce a LARGE part of our emissions by shutting down two, enormous coal fired plants in Ontario (which we are planning on doing).

Also let's not forget you can also take credit for carbon sinks under the agreement (if I recall), which means, planting more trees gives you more points to spend. I wouldn't be surprised if someone just figures out a handy dandy device that sucks CO2 outta the air and just spits back the O2 part.

Then you could make bucky balls and other things with the C and build tons of nano-bots... hrmmmmm.. note to self.. don't talk of such things without a patent on the idea first

Osiris

David Suzuki. was on the local CBC news tonight. He said Canada can meet its agreement but it is going to be very hard to do.
I'm willing to do my part.
Any Canadians here doing the one tonne challenge?

Im not trying to say anything about Canada or its efforts, Really I think its quite noble. But Kyoto is flawed its not really going to do much for anything for the Environment.

But a .07 temp drop if everyone hits their Kyoto targets. Thats such a small change it cant even reliably measured by ground-based thermometers.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Im not trying to say anything about Canada or its efforts, Really I think its quite noble. But Kyoto is flawed its not really going to do much for anything for the Environment.

But a .07 temp drop if everyone hits their Kyoto targets. Thats such a small change it cant even reliably measured by ground-based thermometers.

Shadow,

I wasn't saying you were saying anything about us (at least in a negative way).

I also agree Kyoto is flawed, but our word is our word.

The *one* good thing I think may come of the Kyoto thing is that technologies will be developed that allow countries like China and India to reduce emissions cheaply. It's developing the tech that's expensive, so Canada, or Europe will likely shoulder those costs. However, once developed they *should* make life better for everyone (including non-signers).

Osiris

Originally posted by Umbrax
David Suzuki. was on the local CBC news tonight. He said Canada can meet its agreement but it is going to be very hard to do.
I'm willing to do my part.
Any Canadians here doing the one tonne challenge?

I'm not.. but that's partly because I have already reduced by more than 1 tonne. I'm responsible for a large network of PCs and servers, and power consumption has always been something I've reduced when possible.

Osiris

otlg27 if new tech comes out of this that would be great But I fear this treaty may take advantage of countries that seem to be doing this for noble reasons like Canada.

I really think this is going to create a boom in China and they already are having great economic growth. While Countries like Canada might take a hit at the same time. The US and Canada have such a strong economic links as well.

I really think Kyoto would be bad for the US economy and would rather have the goverment put its own money into making more earth friendly tech.

no one cares because most goverments secrety know that the world is coming to a end in 2012 and worse problems coming sooner in the western world

Canada & kyoto is a joke. Here in Saskatchewan Canada it is illegal to run your own power generating capability. For example Fast Trucking in Carnduff Saskatchewan built a huge windmill that power's the entire city (small city around 3000 people) and the NDP controlled crown corporation of Saskpower made it illegal for them to have the windmill produce electricity for more than 50% of the towns energy consumption. This forced the town to still have to purchase 50% of their energy from coal generated comunist controlled crown corporations.
Also another tar/oil sand has been discvovered near Preeceville Saskatchewan which is very close to Yorkton Saskatchewan Canada. The NDP will not allow any possible loss of revenue for their coffers regardless of Kyoto or not. I wanted to install solar pannels on my house and the city & provence made me dance through hoops with all kinds of B.S. and permits, & licences not to mention evaluation by city council for the eye sore on my roof.
Nobody also takes into account that Canada is HUGE, and very cold in the winter so it is impossible to have the same restrictions for warm Mediterranean European Countries vs. Cold Canada.
Plus while the world's been arguing about kyoto, signing on, and pointing the finger at the U.S. for not signing, the U.S. already implemented clean air laws years ago.
You Eastern Canadians need to get off your high horse.

Shadow, to tell you the truth Canada can eliminate quite a bit of C02 from the atmosphere by closing down 4 coal plants in Ontario that are currently spewing # into the air and making my breathing labourous at best(asthmatic here, and plus they have already promised to do it too). Another way to do it is to invest in public transportation, tax the usage of main public car arteries and put the tax dollars straight into the Toronto Transit Authority where it belongs(TTC is Public Transportation) Another way we are going to do it is like you said, invest in Solar, Wind and Hydrogen. We already have a few turbines up and running, the one by the lake is right next to Torontos first H2 Refueling station. The Harbour authority has just completed a HUGE heat exchanger thingy that sucks the cold from the lake in the summer to air condition the Downtown core, it also works in reverse as well. That one system is equivalent to taking 20,000 cars of the road each year. At least Toronto is doing somthing about it, infact we have been working on it for at least a couple of years now.

You Eastern Canadians need to get off your high horse.

Hahahahaha, you westerners always give me a laugh. Btw that windmill thing if true is not right, i do agree with that one.

[edit on 18-2-2005 by sardion2000]

[edit on 18-2-2005 by sardion2000]

[edit on 18-2-2005 by sardion2000]

I'm in BC and my company is finalizing negotiations for financing ( I sent the PR out last night SEDAR, you can't catch me for insider info) our 2 current projects, run of river hydro plants, and already have a 20 year contract with 'communist' BC Hydro to sell the power back.

Keeps me in work, and is environmentally friendly. Each province is different.

If you think those 'crazy' Eastern Canadians are enviro-friendly, you should look to the West. You're surrounded!!!

Originally posted by sardion2000
Hahahahaha, you westerners always give me a laugh. Btw that windmill thing if true is not right, i do agree with that one.

Eeek, could we call them middle-Canadians? I really don't like to be lumped in with Alberta and Saskatchewan. Pretty please?

But we are awfully cute and funny, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by Duzey

Originally posted by sardion2000
Hahahahaha, you westerners always give me a laugh. Btw that windmill thing if true is not right, i do agree with that one.

Eeek, could we call them middle-Canadians? I really don't like to be lumped in with Alberta and Saskatchewan. Pretty please?

But we are awfully cute and funny, I'll give you that.

Heh sorry Duzey, when I say western canadians I mean anything West of Ontario and East of BC

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
You Eastern Canadians need to get off your high horse.

Simple suggestion for you Mr. I'm so hard done by. Don't elect the damned NDP and you won't have those problems. Blaming the rest of Canada for the inability of your province to elect a more right wing party, is like me blaming you for the hockey season being cancelled: irrelevant and wrong.

Osiris