Good Guy w/ Gun Stops Bad Guy w/ Gun, Lenexa Costco

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ketsuko

Off duty cops got guns, so should everyone. Because the odds of that cop happening to be there were even lower than the store being robbed at gunpoint.

The odds stores would continue to get robbed in the face of open carry is about zero. That would be like a robber trying to rob the police department.

More guns does not automatically equal more safety.

Yes it does, not only deterring criminals in the first place, but unless they are killers too, they rather not get into a gunfight for the amount of money in the register. Of course we don't have much data on crimes being deterred, because they never happened.

Usually robberies occur where there are no guns.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
It should be noted that Costco's membership agreement prohibits guns being brought in by members.

Let's see if Costco removes this hero from their membership...

I seriously doubt that is going to happen. Like I said in another thread some time back. Private businesses that don't allow guns don't have to know I'm carrying. I have legal right and the proper license for my state so I am good legally. I could care less if a private business doesn't want me to carry. I carry concealed and they never know I have it...It is always better to ask for forgiveness in those types of scenarios then permission.

Besides what's the worst Costco could do if they discovered I was packing....ask me to leave??

OK!

I would rather carry against Costco's rules and businesses like them than to become a victim of a criminal who obviously doesn't care about Costco's rules as well.

In case you are not familiar . Lenexa is a suburb of KC, in Johnson county KS which is one of the wealthiest counties in the country.

This Costco is in a very wealthy "safe"neighborhood.

Goes to show this shi can happen anywhere.

I live about a mile from Lenexa in Overland Park.

a reply to: GuidedKill

Isn't carrying in a business that expressly states no fire arms on their property a crime?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ketsuko

Off duty cops got guns, so should everyone. Because the odds of that cop happening to be there were even lower than the store being robbed at gunpoint.

The odds stores would continue to get robbed in the face of open carry is about zero. That would be like a robber trying to rob the police department.

Just to clarify since i see a lot of people fumble the open carry laws.

Open carry laws apply to public space. Businesses can in fact post signs that prohibit concealed / open carry weapons on their property as they are considered private property open to the public.

In general state laws exempt law enforcement from restrictions on when / where they can carry and are only governed by their departmental policies.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Open carry laws apply to public space. Businesses can in fact post signs that prohibit concealed / open carry weapons on their property as they are considered private property open to the public.

Well then thats where robbers will go, first.

I don't know how many times I've walked into a gun store, liquor store, whatever, and seen a gun on a hip. When I notice it, I feel safer, not less.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Xcathdra

Open carry laws apply to public space. Businesses can in fact post signs that prohibit concealed / open carry weapons on their property as they are considered private property open to the public.

Well then thats where robbers will go, first.

I don't know how many times I've walked into a gun store, liquor store, whatever, and seen a gun on a hip. When I notice it, I feel safer, not less.

You will not get any argument for me as I agree.

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: GuidedKill

Isn't carrying in a business that expressly states no fire arms on their property a crime?

Depends on the state but to answer the question broadly, NO. State laws usually only deal with what can be done in the state as a whole not on individuals private property. Just like carrying concealed is illegal outside your house without a license but doing it on your private property is not. The laws usually don't drill down that far to designate each individual piece or property and their use.

Now if a state has designated "safe zones" or "gun free zones" that specifically state private businesses can dictate their customers carrying with a license or not on their property and failure to follow their rules is a crime then yes it is illegal to carry there. It is your responsibility to know the laws in your state as they are different from state to state.


I personally fall under the LEOSA act of 2004 so I carry where ever I damn well please.

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) is a United States federal law, enacted in 2004, that allows two classes of persons—the "qualified law enforcement officer" and the "qualified retired law enforcement officer"—to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of state or local laws, with certain exceptions.

I think open carry is a bad idea for the simple reason that a group of thugs could easily overwhelm most open carriers and shoot them with their own gun. It would be an easy venue for criminals to get firearms.

a reply to: GuidedKill

Yes, I realize the private property issue is at the state level.

I personally fall under the LEOSA act of 2004 so I carry where ever I damn well please.

Hopefully that is not how you see enforcing the law.

originally posted by: eManym
I think open carry is a bad idea for the simple reason that a group of thugs could easily overwhelm most open carriers and shoot them with their own gun. It would be an easy venue for criminals to get firearms.

I could agree with that. Police officers holsters are usually double or triple retention. Meaning they take two or move moves in specific order to remove the pistol. This reduces this from happening to police officers and people from just being able to "grab" their gun.

Most people who open carry don't have any retention on their holster at all. Someone could just walk up right behind them and with one snap disarm them. We have seen this demonstrated and practiced in DT at the academy. It can be as fast and easy as a professional pick pocket if done right.

The element of surprise is one thing by carrying concealed and also usually keeps the gun out of the fight until the owner chooses to introduce it. Plus why draw all that attention by open carrying...

pun intended.

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: GuidedKill

Yes, I realize the private property issue is at the state level.

I personally fall under the LEOSA act of 2004 so I carry where ever I damn well please.

Hopefully that is not how you see enforcing the law.

I guess you don't know what the LEOSA act of 2004 is about. Being I am retired LE under federal law I can carry anywhere I want in the united states and it supersedes any state law that says I can't. AKA that means it doesn't matter what law you have that says I can't carry in your store. My permit supersedes all state laws and I can tell you to kick rocks.

The exceptions they are listing have to deal with court houses, federal building and such , even then if you show them the card they usually waive you through like other LE officers.

a reply to: GuidedKill

Not questioning the LEOSA act of 2004.

At least in my state, just a hand gun license (not your case) doesn't exempt trespass where properly posted.

Nothing wrong with people opting out of hand guns on their premise. People can choose where to go if they want to carry. I don't personally have a problem with most people carrying although I know people who I would steer clear of when they have a fire arm in their possession.

a reply to: roadgravel

It depends on what your state has written as far as the Code goes. My state, for example, gives "no gun" signs on private property the force of law, and you can be charged for not complying. But that's because my state has a specifically written statute that addresses it. It also puts certain requirements on the establishment as far as sign placement, size, etc. If the establishment doesn't comply with that part of the statute, then it's null and void as far as the law goes.

There are other states that make no specific provision for private premises in their code, so the sign doesn't carry the force of law with it.

And, FWIW, as far as LEOSA goes it's not as simple as "I'm retired so I can carry." There are requirements the retiree has to comply with, including a range qualification.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: roadgravel

It depends on what your state has written as far as the Code goes. My state, for example, gives "no gun" signs on private property the force of law, and you can be charged for not complying. But that's because my state has a specifically written statute that addresses it. It also puts certain requirements on the establishment as far as sign placement, size, etc. If the establishment doesn't comply with that part of the statute, then it's null and void as far as the law goes.

There are other states that make no specific provision for private premises in their code, so the sign doesn't carry the force of law with it.

And, FWIW, as far as LEOSA goes it's not as simple as "I'm retired so I can carry." There are requirements the retiree has to comply with, including a range qualification.

All very true information.

I am required to qualify annually with my old department and have been kicking the rookies collective arses for years. I shot top gun in my academy class and still whip up on the youngins at the range from time to time.

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ketsuko

Off duty cops got guns, so should everyone. Because the odds of that cop happening to be there were even lower than the store being robbed at gunpoint.

The odds stores would continue to get robbed in the face of open carry is about zero. That would be like a robber trying to rob the police department.

More guns does not automatically equal more safety.

Yes it does, not only deterring criminals in the first place, but unless they are killers too, they rather not get into a gunfight for the amount of money in the register. Of course we don't have much data on crimes being deterred, because they never happened.

Usually robberies occur where there are no guns.

By your logic, Chicago should be the safest place on earth...or gang controlled territory in LA, or a warzone.

More guns does NOT equal more safety.

I would love it if you can show me where more guns means more safety.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: intrptr

I know both Missouri and Kansas are concealed carry, but I think Missouri is open carry too. I've seen people packing openly on this side of the line.

Kansas is all Constitutional Carry now. You can still get a permit, but don't have to have one (useful if traveling, to states that reciprocate), and can carry open or concealed, most places. Some restrict open, but they can't restrict concealed now. Not sure on bars, or schools, or churches.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: intrptr

I know both Missouri and Kansas are concealed carry, but I think Missouri is open carry too. I've seen people packing openly on this side of the line.

Kansas is all Constitutional Carry now. You can still get a permit, but don't have to have one (useful if traveling, to states that reciprocate), and can carry open or concealed, most places. Some restrict open, but they can't restrict concealed now. Not sure on bars, or schools, or churches.

I'm in Kansas. If businesses don't want guns on their premises, they MUST post obvious signage at all entrances in a manner that makes it plainly visible.

I shop at that Costco... but have no recollection if, or what, any of their signage says... but these days, I'd almost be inclined to carry concealed even in a "no guns" posted business. These people got VERY very lucky that the KCKPD officer was on premises.

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ketsuko

Off duty cops got guns, so should everyone. Because the odds of that cop happening to be there were even lower than the store being robbed at gunpoint.

The odds stores would continue to get robbed in the face of open carry is about zero. That would be like a robber trying to rob the police department.

More guns does not automatically equal more safety.

Yes it does, not only deterring criminals in the first place, but unless they are killers too, they rather not get into a gunfight for the amount of money in the register. Of course we don't have much data on crimes being deterred, because they never happened.

Usually robberies occur where there are no guns.

By your logic, Chicago should be the safest place on earth...or gang controlled territory in LA, or a warzone.

More guns does NOT equal more safety.

I would love it if you can show me where more guns means more safety.

Safe for the criminals, you mean?
The criminal element being the only ones with the guns, law abiding citizens don't carry, lol.

Not only, the criminals are the same ones selling your kids drugs, they don't have your best interests at heart.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: intrptr

I know both Missouri and Kansas are concealed carry, but I think Missouri is open carry too. I've seen people packing openly on this side of the line.

Everyone should call their congressmen and tell them to support national reciprocity. It's not constitutional carry but it will help a lot when you travel.