Scotland may be first to adopt a Universal Income, will give $200 a week to every citizen for life

originally posted by: helldiver

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: nOraKat

God bless Sturgeon, she's full of grand ideas.....as long as those bastards in Westminster are prepared to fund it!

Horrible, horrible woman who does the Scots no favours at all.

Free prescriptions
No tuition fees
Opposition to bedroom tax
Extended child allowance
Independent living fund
Opposition to increased retirement age
Etc etc

She's a real menace alright, but not to the Scots.

And A ban on Fracking

Yeah, she's a nasty piece of work is Nicola..

a reply to: pavil

You don't tax the UBI, however if you treated it as income for tax brackets it would increase tax revenue even without changing the tax system.

In reality that would be a really strange way of doing it as you would simply adjust tax rates to take into account the fact that everyone gets the UBI.

A UBI can be as redistributive( or not) as you want to make it. The critical part is the tax code that sits above it.

The benefit of the UBI schemes is that rather than multiple bureacracies running separate systems you have a single taxation system.

You also have the benefit that people no longer have to prove entitlement to welfare payments with the stress, cost and delays that causes.

a reply to: pavil

Again your using incorrect math.

Crossing net and gross is a falacy.

Also let me further explain the failure.

This needs to be done with tax reform.

60 percent of our current budget is welfare.

Did you add the cost of a complicated irs system? Do you know what the numbers are for compliance cost to business?

Their operating cost?

Just to point out your lack of understanding what this functionally means mathematically.

26 percent flat income tax.

100,000,-- 26,0000 taxes, 12,000 return actual tax is 14,000 which is 14 percent.

Obviously the tax base is far larger than income tax.

When you want to have a real discussion that doesn't use a right wing approach to using false numbers I am game.

Again I don't say this is a end all solution. But the way your using math isn't reality.

Your not basing these numbers on the changes in the budget the ubi would be making.
Let me leave you with

Sam Harris and Joe Rogan talking about it. I line up pretty much exactly with Sam Harris's conversation here.

youtu.be...

The hangover from calvinism being my favorite line of why people can't talk rationally about other systems and adapting to the robot age.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: luthier

Again, I'd love for a UBI type system to work......show me how? I'm not seeing it.

We all live because of UBI already. People just don't realize it. The primary UBI comes from the SUN !

It's a free gift from God.

What is money?

It's just a way to re-distribute the Sun's energy among populations so that some can have more Sunlight than others.

The Sun's energy gets converted by Plants which die and over millions of years that energy is stored in chemical bonds in the form of OIL.

That OIL is then dug up from the ground, and used as fuel to run all the machines.

So, OIL is the primary transaction currency in the world today.

Everybody receives the same amount of natural sunlight, but with OIL some can have much more than others.

A couple hundred years ago, the main machine we had to do labor was muscle power, from beasts and man.

Men and beasts had to eat food, to extract the energy that was put there by the Sun, to do useful work.

So, in order to re-distribute this free UBI from the sun, some people decided to dominate others, and make large parts of the population into servants and slaves, so that they could profit from harnessing that "muscle power" for their own wants and needs.

The "Masters" of society had to use "fear" to get people to "give up" their free UBI, by using it to provide products and services to these masters.

This actually was a good thing, because it forced people to "think" and struggle to become "intelligent", so that they could get out of their servitude and become masters themselves.

Now, "fear" only works to motivate people to provide their "muscle power".

As we moved into the industrial age, more and more mechanical machines took over the muscle power, and the valuable asset became "brain power".

The masters cannot use "fear" to motivate people to apply their "brain power" for their benefit, because these emotions interfere with the thinking process. So, they turned to another emotion called "jealousy" which works much better.

By clever social engineering, the masters promoted the idea that you must have more than your neighbor to be happy. And through advertising they constantly remind people what other's have, that they are missing in their life, or how much better other people have it, so that each person feels "jealous" and struggles to get the cash to buy more things to compete with his neighbor. This works really well, and is the current dominate motivating factor in society--looking at what other people have and "copying" them to feel good.

But, now we're approaching a different age, when both "muscle power" and "brain power" are being provided by machines. The mechanical machines provide the muscle, and the artificial intelligence software running on computers provide the brains. So, there's no need for using either "fear" or "jealousy" to motivate the masses.

People do have other natural motivations for why they do things.

Some people are just curious about the world around them, and like to investigate and figure out how things work.

In fact, most of the scientific advancements that took place in the 1800s came from those few people who were rich enough that they didn't need to work, but would just explore whatever they fancied at the time. And our whole modern society is built on the foundations laid by these idle folk, who had the leisure time to just think about stuff.

Imagine the whole population of the earth having this leisure time, to just think about anything they want. Rather than just a few hundred souls discovering and inventing the science and technology for the rest of us, we have 7 billion people doing the same. Just imagine the advancement that will come when they are all freed by UBI to follow their dreams.

It's a marvelous future ahead of us.

Hi!

I am from Alaska. It is called the "permanent fund dividend" (locals just say, "PFD").

Here is how it works. The state charges (i.e., tax) oil companies an amount to have access to both the land and the oil. That money is used to pay for government (dumb bastids never thought oil was going away. They spent like it was going to be this much every year. Now that oil production is in decline the budget has disappeared. They are scrambling for justification in doing stupid things like persona income tax, sales tax, etc., to keep their funding at that level. Some even more stupid bastid cut the business tax to oil industry companies. That mean even less dollars coming in! Really, dumb idea. The thinking was, "oil companies will spend their windfall on exploration" but it never happened. They pocketed the money.). Uh, where was I? Oh yeah, a subset of that money is set aside as wealth sharing endowment for the citizens of Alaska. There is a corporation set up that invest the money in various funds.

The averaged money earned over a 5 year period is distributed each year (this year that day is tomorrow! YAY!) in the form of the PFD check. That money was not to be used to pay for government since they had their own money to snort up. But, like I said, they gave the money away and now want to tap into the citizen's money. In fact, the current gov capped it at 1,000 dollars and keeps the rest for what it was not intended, fund the government.

There are conditions. Each year you have to apply for it. You have to have been a citizen for 12 months prior to receiving one. And if any funky thing happens like, you become a felon, you owe child support, you owe taxes, etc., they garnish it. You go to prison if you defraud the fund.

As far as UBI goes, it is good idea but only that. We, the US, need energy independence (i.e., nuclear fusion type energy generation) for UBI to work. But hey, if we get fusion, money is gone anyway. So does oil after a few decades. Coal is dead immediately (er, it already is).

Nobody asked, "What is money"? Which is kind of funny if you think of it.

Btw, PFD day, drugs and prostitute make a crap load of money. As do plane ticket sales to Hawaii and big TVs at the Big Box Store. What it really provides is a boost to the local economy. Now that we are capped (should have been 2,000 this year), the gubner is shooting himself in the foot. Election time is coming and I guarantee he will not be re-elected. All his stupid ideas will be reversed and we can right this ship (dumb @ss thinks he make a natural gas pipeline happen in 5 years so he is going all in. Dumb bastid doesn't get the fact Russia is sitting on 400 times more than we ever could produce as a state. SMH).

a reply to: AMPTAH

The great Bucky Fuller said the same in his 12 hour lectures.

He had college kids in the early 60's making maps of the world's resources to explain history and the future and was making green energy grid ideas back then. Mapping out geothermal, solar, tidal, hydroelectric, grids across the world. Back then he was in a race to show humanity these things are finite renewable are not. Everything should be designed like an aircraft using the least amount of materials for the aplication possible.

That's how he came up with his geodesic and dome variations.

Sadly I always asumed he was from the future after I read his "operators manual for spaceship earth"..and we are screwed that is why he worked so hard to try and change thought.

originally posted by: SoloprotocolHorrible, horrible woman who does the Scots no favours at all.

Sturgeon is not a horrible woman. She's a nationalist politician. All the things the Scottish government has done has been enabled by the unfair Barnett Formula which gives the Scots bags more cash to spend per head then the English.

Regardless of all the tokens the nationalists have ruined the education system in Scotland as shown by falling standards. There is greater income inequality and kids are less likely to go to university (even without fees) than elsewhere in the UK. Furthermore the poor are poorer. If the nationalists actually cared they would try to tackle the big issues and not the tokens.

This UBI thing sounds like a distraction, as you would expect from a failed government.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: SoloprotocolHorrible, horrible woman who does the Scots no favours at all.

Sturgeon is not a horrible woman. She's a nationalist politician. All the things the Scottish government has done has been enabled by the unfair Barnett Formula which gives the Scots bags more cash to spend per head then the English.

Regardless of all the tokens the nationalists have ruined the education system in Scotland as shown by falling standards. There is greater income inequality and kids are less likely to go to university (even without fees) than elsewhere in the UK. Furthermore the poor are poorer. If the nationalists actually cared they would try to tackle the big issues and not the tokens.

This UBI thing sounds like a distraction, as you would expect from a failed government.

But none of what you say is true is it. You just made it up or stole it from unionist propaganda news in the hope no-one challenges what you are saying. in the past 30 something years Scotland has payed more in tax per head of population than England Wales and NI, Forget the Barnett formula i would rather have had the taxation from oil and gas, We would be one of the wealthiest countries on earth instead we have a 15 billion black hole owed to who? yeah, you guessed it, London. London has all this spare cash, our cash, yet we have to ask for a #ing loan with interest if we want any of it. Westminster is a thief and a plunderer of Scotlands wealth and that is a fact.

You know why Scotland has banned fracking? It's not just because of the environmental and health issues surrounding it, but because every single penny earned in tax will head off to London never to be seen again........and one other reason.

And once more London is about to pull the rug from under our feet with the clawing back of certain powes like fishing in the north sea and of course FRACKING. Westminster is a dirty lying thieving #hole that should be levelled at the first opportunity.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Steady on, Braveheart. Scotland and England were one administrative entity from a general taxation point of view, and both are governed from Westminster.

The fact that tax incomes from Scotland travelled south of Berwick-on-Tweed isn't some cosmic injustice. (As mentioned, Scotland has done alright out of the Barnett Formula, so what the Lord taketh away on the one hand, He giveth back on the other).

Let's not pretend that Scotland is being robbed. From the point of view of the taxman, Scotland didn't exist until earlier this year.

originally posted by: audubon
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Steady on, Braveheart. Scotland and England were one administrative entity from a general taxation point of view, and both are governed from Westminster.

The fact that tax incomes from Scotland travelled south of Berwick-on-Tweed isn't some cosmic injustice. (As mentioned, Scotland has done alright out of the Barnett Formula, so what the Lord taketh away on the one hand, He giveth back on the other).

Let's not pretend that Scotland is being robbed. From the point of view of the taxman, Scotland didn't exist until earlier this year.

Partly true but they can't have it both ways. If Scottish tax receipts are the UKs then it is nonsense to claim Scotland runs a deficit.

originally posted by: audubon
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Steady on, Braveheart. Scotland and England were one administrative entity from a general taxation point of view, and both are governed from Westminster.

The fact that tax incomes from Scotland travelled south of Berwick-on-Tweed isn't some cosmic injustice. (As mentioned, Scotland has done alright out of the Barnett Formula, so what the Lord taketh away on the one hand, He giveth back on the other).

Let's not pretend that Scotland is being robbed. From the point of view of the taxman, Scotland didn't exist until earlier this year.

Typical, Scotland has been doing ok from westminsters handouts, but when it comes to the bad like child poverty, the poor getting poorer, inequality. less kids taking up university places the blames always falls squarely at the door of a government with it's finacial hands tied who have only been in power for a decade...

yeah, pull the other one ya jellied eel eating, hanky on the ed wearing, whippet racing. knees up muver braaan bellend.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Oh, what part of what I said was factually incorrect.

Anyway, Scotland is part of the UK so all the crying about "what could have been" is just that: Blabbering. I support self determination, including in Orkney. They are the people who should be rich.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Oh, what part of what I said was factually incorrect.

Anyway, Scotland is part of the UK so all the crying about "what could have been" is just that: Blabbering. I support self determination, including in Orkney. They are the people who should be rich.

How many votes did the Orkney independence party get in the last election?

a reply to: Soloprotocol

How dare you suggest I race whippets. I do have some standards, you know.

originally posted by: audubon
a reply to: Soloprotocol

How dare you suggest I race whippets. I do have some standards, you know.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Oh, what part of what I said was factually incorrect.

All of it. Failed Government..? The SNP have done more for Scotland and it's people than any other party by a country mile and with less and less £££££ each year, And given full control of our finances the SNP would embarrass the Tories and Labour and they know it. It's not Scotland who would be the financial basket case if and when Scotland becomes independent, It's England.

Wales and NI would surely follow once they see how we can thrive as a small independent nation.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: luthier

Again, I'd love for a UBI type system to work......show me how? I'm not seeing it.

We all live because of UBI already. People just don't realize it. The primary UBI comes from the SUN !

It's a free gift from God.

What is money?

It's just a way to re-distribute the Sun's energy among populations so that some can have more Sunlight than others.

The Sun's energy gets converted by Plants which die and over millions of years that energy is stored in chemical bonds in the form of OIL.

That OIL is then dug up from the ground, and used as fuel to run all the machines.

So, OIL is the primary transaction currency in the world today.

Everybody receives the same amount of natural sunlight, but with OIL some can have much more than others.

A couple hundred years ago, the main machine we had to do labor was muscle power, from beasts and man.

Men and beasts had to eat food, to extract the energy that was put there by the Sun, to do useful work.

So, in order to re-distribute this free UBI from the sun, some people decided to dominate others, and make large parts of the population into servants and slaves, so that they could profit from harnessing that "muscle power" for their own wants and needs.

The "Masters" of society had to use "fear" to get people to "give up" their free UBI, by using it to provide products and services to these masters.

This actually was a good thing, because it forced people to "think" and struggle to become "intelligent", so that they could get out of their servitude and become masters themselves.

Now, "fear" only works to motivate people to provide their "muscle power".

As we moved into the industrial age, more and more mechanical machines took over the muscle power, and the valuable asset became "brain power".

The masters cannot use "fear" to motivate people to apply their "brain power" for their benefit, because these emotions interfere with the thinking process. So, they turned to another emotion called "jealousy" which works much better.

By clever social engineering, the masters promoted the idea that you must have more than your neighbor to be happy. And through advertising they constantly remind people what other's have, that they are missing in their life, or how much better other people have it, so that each person feels "jealous" and struggles to get the cash to buy more things to compete with his neighbor. This works really well, and is the current dominate motivating factor in society--looking at what other people have and "copying" them to feel good.

But, now we're approaching a different age, when both "muscle power" and "brain power" are being provided by machines. The mechanical machines provide the muscle, and the artificial intelligence software running on computers provide the brains. So, there's no need for using either "fear" or "jealousy" to motivate the masses.

People do have other natural motivations for why they do things.

Some people are just curious about the world around them, and like to investigate and figure out how things work.

In fact, most of the scientific advancements that took place in the 1800s came from those few people who were rich enough that they didn't need to work, but would just explore whatever they fancied at the time. And our whole modern society is built on the foundations laid by these idle folk, who had the leisure time to just think about stuff.

Imagine the whole population of the earth having this leisure time, to just think about anything they want. Rather than just a few hundred souls discovering and inventing the science and technology for the rest of us, we have 7 billion people doing the same. Just imagine the advancement that will come when they are all freed by UBI to follow their dreams.

It's a marvelous future ahead of us.

I'll just sit on the beach and get drunk.

originally posted by: RazorV66

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: nOraKat

There's another name for Universal Income, it's called welfare.

I think it would be more acceptable if people are required to community service as a form of contributing to society.

Most people that are working don't get welfare, maybe some do.
OP says they will give it out regardless of income and status.
It could stimulate the economy for people to have a little extra spending cash.

It doesn't quite make sense to be given this if you have a good income.

a reply to: nOraKat

Give everyone free cash, legalise cannabis, tax at 20% BOOM!! got yoself an economy 😑

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: RazorV66

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: nOraKat

There's another name for Universal Income, it's called welfare.

I think it would be more acceptable if people are required to community service as a form of contributing to society.

Most people that are working don't get welfare, maybe some do.
OP says they will give it out regardless of income and status.
It could stimulate the economy for people to have a little extra spending cash.

It doesn't quite make sense to be given this if you have a good income.

There's a part you're missing. Usually these large scale Universal Income theories replace all or most social safety net programs. So yes, you'll receive the Universal Income during good times; but it's also the only thing you'll receive during bad times. No food stamps, no public housing, no healthcare for the poor, no free or reduced cost lunches for poor kids at school, no govt subsidized homeless or abuse shelters, etc. Some proposals go even further and get rid of pensions, Social Security-type programs, and more.

Of course, most of this is still just in the hypothetical stage (though a few places are testing it in limited amounts). And there's simply no standard version of this, so each proposal might be radically different. ETA: I think it would make more sense if it were called something like "The only taxpayer funds you'll ever receive" or "This is your only govt-funded safety net, so use it well or die. It's on you now, buddy." But those aren't really catchy lol.