Why many are so afraid.

a reply to: Boadicea

I don't disagree at all that there are very real fears out there. Husband has been dealing with a facebook friend or two who are frothing over with hysteria.

The question is whether or not those fears have much substance to ground them in or if they've been propped up by a dishonest media and a campaign running on negativity.

I had a very close Muslim friend up until a couple of months ago. She married a Syrian refuge and isn't allowed to talk to me anymore.

That was a long read, and unfortunately the basis of the OP is absolutely wrong.

The Left is afraid, because for months and months the lies of the MSM and twitter shills have been railing on how evil Trump is, how the Right is the second coming of the nazis. All this propaganda, spouted by the MSM and their 'intellectually superior' followers, have now experienced their worst nightmare come true; President Trump. All the lies, all the hate, have accumulated and now boiling over; because Hillary is not president.

I bet you dollars to donuts, the majority of people who are 'afraid' of Trump, have never heard of Steven Bannon until some MSM propagandist told them who he is and why they should hate and fear him.

There is no reasoning with these people, they cannot be reasoned with, they are unreasonable and will not listen. You are making a fatal error in your assumptions, you believe that critical thinking is a common trait among people, it is not. Maybe the focus should be on the education system and their preaching of Cultural Marxism, of watering down the quality of education to make their twisted view of 'how things are and should be' compatible with intellectualism.

There was no listening to the criticisms and concerns when the Left was in power, they do not care what us 'dullards' think or feel, the intellectual aristocracy knows best. Their entire power structure is crumbling, all their brainwashed pawns see that power fleeting and their vision for the future now a pipe-dream.

This is politics, there is no quarter given to the enemy, and the left has made that crystal clear.

There's not a more perfect example of the validity of the OP than a lot of the comments up to this point.

People feeling proud for not trying to understand another's point of view. There is a lack of critical thinking here, but it isn't from the OP.

Im so glad no one is taking tge trump presidency is seen as a liberation. I hope there's no i told you so in the future of the US.

Trump and the people supporting him are only good for the future of the US. A future im dying to see

originally posted by: underwerks
There's not a more perfect example of the validity of the OP than a lot of the comments up to this point.

People feeling proud for not trying to understand another's point of view. There is a lack of critical thinking here, but it isn't from the OP.

I do get it. You're scared.

My point is are you sure there is reason to be or are you jumping at strawmen that have been created for you? Are you tilting at windmills?

a reply to: odzeandennz

I'm not sure why anyone would be claiming anything. Nothing has happened yet.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: underwerks
There's not a more perfect example of the validity of the OP than a lot of the comments up to this point.

People feeling proud for not trying to understand another's point of view. There is a lack of critical thinking here, but it isn't from the OP.

I do get it. You're scared.

My point is are you sure there is reason to be or are you jumping at strawmen that have been created for you? Are you tilting at windmills?

Why would you think this to be a strawman would be my question. What media do you watch and listen to? How do you know you're not being misled?

I haven't owned a TV since around 2005 and I haven't watched any news shows in just as long. I watched the debates and Trump and Hillary's speeches on YouTube but that's as close as I got to any "news" this election.

No news stations told me about my redneck Muslim friend that got followed around by people chanting Trump! and calling him a sand n-word on election night. Even though he was a Trump voter.

That didn't happen when Bush won, whats the difference?

a reply to: ketsuko

That's the question, I agree. And it is my sincere hope - indeed, at this point in time my greatest hope - that that is indeed the case. That there's nothing to fear, and everyone is just in histrionics.

That said... I have a long time friend who has always been an extremely rational, objective person. He's gay and a member of an ethnic minority. But he has always rejected the sensationalism of both the far left and right media, forming his own well considered opinions. He was a high school teacher before his retirement, served our country in two wars, and is not inclined towards sensationalism.

And he is at this moment consulting with his financial advisers, lawyers, and the state dpt to lay the groundwork to leave the country should it become necessary. When I asked why, his reply was, "Because while it's not to that point yet, I'm afraid I can see the writing on the wall. Maybe this will be nothing. I hope it is. But maybe this is just how it starts." His voice cracked as he said it. That's not the man I am used to conversing with, and he didn't arrive at that opinion because he only watches liberal media.

As a white, heterosexual male, these possibilities won't affect me like they will others in this country. And while I sincerely hope - and am definitely willing to wait and see if (benefit of the doubt as I said) - the things so many minorities are presently afraid of turn out to be unfounded knee jerk reactions... I also can't help but think about something he told me once. "My friend, people don't like to think about this. And 9 times out of 10, it really is just hysteria and fear with no foundation. But, for all intents and purposes, a society can be judged by how it treats its poorest and most vulnerable. And for that reason, they often act like the canaries in the coal mine. Do you understand?"

I didn't then. But I do find myself thinking today that maybe, just maybe even if it turns out they're wrong, we should be at least paying attention and listening to those who are most likely to be affected by such curtailments, should they occur. Rather than relying on our own cognitive dissonance and normalcy bias to persuade us everything will be just fine.

Let me put it this way. Whether it's a left leaning or a right leaning president... the job of the people has to be, in my opinion, to be vigilant, no? That's why my criticisms of administrations does not lean more heavily toward one side or the other.

Bush I gave us NAFTA. Clinton signed it and laid a lot of the unitary executive theory groundwork (which Bush II later picked up and ran with,) and curtailed second amendment rights. Bush II gave us warrantless wiretapping, data mining, and a mandatory national ID protocol (which all states have quietly implemented after the fact,) as well as the erosion of habeus corpus and, briefly until overturned, posse comitatus, and legalized torture ("enhanced interrogations.") Obama has further eroded habeus corpus with the signing of the NDAA, pushed for further second amendment curtailment, engaged in presidential overreach in a number of areas, made drone strikes everywhere in the world including on U.S. soil should it ever be necessary a normalized fact of life, and ignored government violations of treaties with native peoples.

Now we have a President-Elect who has openly advocated or failed to repudiate things that give people great cause for concern. In my eyes, the government has been becoming increasingly authoritarian irrespective of which party holds office, and it would be a fair assessment in my opinion to say Trump's campaign statements line up with a potential furthering of that slide.

All I'm asking... and no one has responded to this plea yet in the affirmative... is, just as I will say I refuse to support the curtailment of the second amendment and other constitutional rights the right cherishes (with good reason,) for those on the right to consider reaching out to those who are afraid even if you regard their fears and unfounded, and help support that position by saying, "No, I will not support the curtailing of your rights."

What I'm saying is, imo, if people can't or won't do that for each other, on both sides, then we should all be very concerned because to me it suggests we are in a constitutional curtailment tit for tat between both sides, which successively from administration to administration, regardless of party, can only in time result in fewer protections for all of us.

I think we can and should all agree that would be a very bad thing, no? People don't have to agree with the left or whoever else is out there protesting, or even believe that anything is wrong. But can we at least make that promise to each other as citizens, and brothers and sisters? I will not support the curtailing of your civil and constitutional rights.? This should not be a hard question to answer for any American on either side.

Unless of course, we're all lost...

Peace.

a reply to: underwerks

9/11?

Just one thought to start us off.

a reply to: AceWombat04

Uh-huh, well you can tell him that my husband and I had similar talks between the two of us about what we would do under various scenarios we could potentially see happening during both an Obama and then a Clinton presidency.

What he fears now? We feared as white-appearing, heterosexual white folks who are also Christian. These last eight years have not been good or comfortable times for us.

We discussed the likelihood of him securing a job out of country. We talked about what would happen if open persecution began. The National Labor Relations Board actually did post a proposed regulation for businesses that would have forced them to justify the hire or promotion of a white person over a qualified minority, so we did seriously discuss where we were going to get the money to DNA test him and our son to prove they have the Native American ancestry he has never claimed because he was adopted.

So, yeah, you tell your friend there has been plenty of fear to go around.

Oh, yes, and if you discussed those fears with people not of your own ideology or belief? They would laugh at you.

a reply to: ketsuko

I'm Christian as well, for what it's worth.

All I've asked - and I will ask again before giving up I suppose - is for people on both sides to say, "I will not support national policies which curtail your civil and constitutional rights." That includes your rights as well as mine. It is in both our interests and those of both sides to do this, is it not?

So how about we make one another a promise as fellow Christians, fellow brothers in Christ? I will refuse to support the curtailment of your civil and constitutional rights, and those of anyone else. Can you say the same to me, and every other citizen in this country? That's the long and short of everything I've posted. That's my sole request. Nothing more.

Peace.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: underwerks

9/11?

Just one thought to start us off.

Ok. And where does that start us off to?

a reply to: eluryh22

My post is not about the reality or lack of reality of any such rising tide. It's about perception, and trying to mend false perceptions if indeed they are false. And encouraging, in the spirit of trying to mend those fences, people on both sides to say to one another: "I will not support a national policy that curtails your constitutional or civil rights."

That's what I'm willing to say to those I disagree with politically, yes, even on second amendment issues. I will not support a policy that erodes those rights. I'm just saying I think it would go a long way if we could talk to each other and say, "Yes, I may disagree with you brother/sister, but you are my countryman/woman, and while I may support policies you disagree with, I'm not going to strip you of your rights."

That's it. That's all I'm encouraging. If that's wrong or misguided today then... we are lost.

Peace.

a reply to: underwerks

Just sayin' you said Bush. Well, he was elected before 9/11.

a reply to: AceWombat04

I don't want them curtailed, but sometimes, I think people forget that when they want things, they are necessarily trampling on others in order to get them.

I could cite the Title IX monkeying. I understand that a transgender person feels bad not being able to use the restroom he or she identifies with because it makes him or her uncomfortable, but in allowing that person to use the locker room with others, you make them uncomfortable in the same way the transgender was uncomfortable.

If you have 20 kids and one of them is transgender, is it correct to make 19 kids potentially uncomfortable to make 1 person happy?

I'm not sure it is, and I'm not sure we found the best answer by opening the facilities like we have. If we allow some to cross facility then why bother having different facilities at all?

a reply to: AceWombat04

AceWombat04, I hope your career is in writing. I didn't read the entire post, due to having a short attention span, but (in my non-pro opinion) the first few paragraphs were AMAZINGLY well written to succinctly convey your thoughts.

a reply to: ketsuko

Fair enough. But we're talking about putting Muslim American citizens in a database, etc.

All I'm asking is... if there's nothing to fear... let's all say to one another the one thing that ensures there's nothing to fear. And I'm also pointing out that it's disturbing to some that so many find those words difficult to utter...

Anyhow... I've said all I can. Debating it will only lead to going in circles on both sides.

I'm returning to self-enforced temporary internet exile. I just felt the need to say all of this.

I will conclude by saying once again: I will not support any national policy - whether concocted by the left or the right - that curtails civil liberties.

Peace.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: underwerks

Just sayin' you said Bush. Well, he was elected before 9/11.

And after 9/11.