Zombie-Like state (Shooters)

Hi guys, I wanted to point something out, that I'm sure someone has connected the dots before on (But I can't for the life of me find where to search threads - help appreciated).

I want to go through a timeline with you guys, starting at the first shooting I was aware of as a child.

Columbine.

By no means, could the current Narrative attached to current shooters, be used to describe them. They were not 'zombies', they planned, and methodically took control in an attempt to cause terror. (It is believed the bullying was a myth, and that they did indeed plan to cause as much damage as possible, to any, and all. Backed up by lack of specific targeting by the shooters. Despite lacking specific targets, they were, in complete awareness, as evident by bombs placed, and their behavior during the attack.


Now let's walk through some recent shootings.

Aurora, Colorado. James Holmes. Claimed to have: Mental Illness. Described as "Zombie-like (during trial), unaware".

Burlington, Washington. Arcan Cetin. Uncertain mental state. Described as "Zombie-like".

There are more, but I mainly wanted to get this out there, and not create a list, per say.


Zombie-like. It just keeps playing in my head. Zombie-like. It's like they are trying to create a narrative for these shooters, and as statistics state, you are actually less likely to commit a crime of violence if you are mentally unwell, and more likely to be taken advantage of. I think the government is using the stereotypes narrative of "Evil Mental Health" to control the population. It's not a true stereotype, and that is where the issue lies. The numbers don't add up. Statistically, there should be some sane shooters, and less mentally disturbed mass shooters. To the public though, that makes sense, that crazy people do crazy things, but the truth is far from that. Crazy people are much more likely to avoid people, than target them. What do you guys think?

I have my own suspicions, but I think it is too far a logical jump to consider - (Project Mk - ultra)

- Speaking of which, does anyone remember the old game by the same name, Project MK-ultra, I don't remember what it was about, but I remember staring at the cover a lot as a child - unsure if I ever player it, I can't remember the actual gameplay, just the game cover, and how it made me feel weird. (At the time, I had no clue about MK-ultra, and originally, when I heard about it, I thought they were referencing the game, haha.

a reply to: TrippyDips

It could be done to anyone very easily and within a matter of minutes in todays world.

Watch this video made by VICE 4 years ago. Pretty scary stuff!

a reply to: TrippyDips

When you look at mugshots, "every" criminal appear "zombie like", it's not limited to mass shooters...

All it shows is that when they get busted, no matter the crime, they are not exactly smiling and having a good time, they get this empty stare into nothing.

I wouldn't call it "zombie like", it's more showing guilt...

Go back and look at how many were treated for mental illness....and then take a look at some of the "helpful" drugs they were given. Read the insert on some of the psych drugs out there. The side effects are a helluva lot more worrisome than the disease.

originally posted by: TrippyDips

- Speaking of which, does anyone remember the old game by the same name, Project MK-ultra, I don't remember what it was about, but I remember staring at the cover a lot as a child - unsure if I ever player it, I can't remember the actual gameplay, just the game cover, and how it made me feel weird. (At the time, I had no clue about MK-ultra, and originally, when I heard about it, I thought they were referencing the game, haha.

Polybius? www.youtube.com...

a reply to: seeker1963

Something clicked for me when I found out NASA gives Scopamine (sp?) To all Astronauts preflight to prevent motion sickness. I'm not sure what it was that clicked but I know I heard it

I am with George Carlin when it comes to most things, in that I would put nothing past our Dear Leaders. With the tech and pharmacological goodies they have designed to aid in controlling the mind, Anything is possible. Anything.

James Holmes is strange case. I don't know about Colorado but Texas Jails aren't to keen on keeping inmates drugged out. Hell a Tylenol can cost you 9$. I take a durg that I am very sick without, and they do not care.

Keep digging OP, I think you may be on to something. Question is, what do we do about it, without ending up a drugged out mind controlled tool ourselves?

a reply to: TrippyDips
Indeed, if you connect the dots between the shooters who are on medication, attending psychotherapy, exhibit strange behavior, have connections to the FBI, and manage to get an expert level kill ratio, it seems suspicious.

What intrigues me is how both the Washington Navy Yard shooter and the Binghamton shooter reported being harassed by authorities:

the police wrote in their report of the incident that he complained about an "unknown party" of people he had never seen. Alexis said these people had been keeping him awake by "sending vibrations into his body" by "using some sort of microwave machine."

and

"UNDERCOVER COP USUAL COiNED SOME NASTY WAS NOT TRUE ABOUT ME AND SPREAD A RUMOUR TO THE RECEiVER AND SOME PEOPLE KNOW ME CONDUCE TOWARD MANY PEOPLE PREJUDiCED AND SELFiSH TO ME . . . COP MADE ME LOST MY JOB . . . COP PUT ME BECAME POOR.

"LET TALK ABOUT WHEN I LiVE AT THE 28.BAKER . ST. 2ND FLOOR. JOHNSON CiTY. NEW YORK 13790. IT TERRiBLE WHEN I LiVE THERE SUCH AS. . COP WAiT UNTiL MiDNiGHT WHEN I OFF THE LiGHT AND WENT TO THE BED. COP UNLOCK MY DOOR AND CAME IN TAKE A SiT IN MY ROOM ON THE THiRTEEN TiME HAD THREE TiME TOUCH ME WHEN I SLEEPiNG. ONE TiME STOLEN 20 DOLLAR IN MY WALLET ONE TiME USED ELECTRiC GUN SHOOT AT THE BEHiND MY NECK. (THAT TiME I DiD NOT KNOW ENGLiSH

Even better, G4S did the security for both locations and contracts out for the CIA...
I didn't even believe in any of these sorts of bizarre conspiracies until a friend lent me this book:

a reply to: TrippyDips

I think an awful lot depends on the offender, when trying to work out what motivates a particular expression, body language, or even particular phrases they might use.

Some offenders, after being caught, will realise that the jig is well and truly up, that they are so utterly boned that death might seem preferable to what is ahead, incarceration wise. That sort of chemical crash can make a person who was previously feeling godlike and bullet proof, appear lethargic, and zombie like.

That is just one example. What I do know, is that scopolamine of the sort used by criminals in Colombia to achieve certain illegal and nefarious aims, does not produce a literal zombie state. When one thinks of the word zombie, one thinks of witless, shuffling goons, without the ability to converse, or perform basic tasks, like opening or closing doors, finding possessions, using a credit card or an ATM... These are not things we associate with zombification. In fact, I have met people who become zombies when they drink, stumbling into walls, forgetting their way home, fighting inanimate objects... That is what I expect from a zombie, and that is what I get from certain people when they drink spirits.

The descriptions of scopolamine intoxication do not appear to correlate with zombification. From what I have read and seen on the net, it appears that the effects are far closer to subtle and well executed hypnotic suggestion, where a person will answer questions about themselves perfectly reasonably, until asked to bark like a dog, or behave and cluck like a chicken, at which point things get a little barmy, but note, those are complex actions involving both physical activity, and vocal modulation.

In the Vice video above (easily one of the best video resources on the subject) a man describes a situation in which he convinced his doorman that everything was legit, even as he, and several other people, stripped his apartment bare, after he had already handed over everything in his ATM and other sundry items. Let's face it, no mere zombie could even summon the skill to say "All is well, doorman!", leave alone do it convincingly!

This is a drug which causes a neurological state which has no similarity to the Hatian zombie, the flesh eating movie zombie, or any other similar state of being, since all of those involve severe impairment of physical, verbal and spatial awareness capacity. As far as I can tell, the effects of this drug, have no commonality with any state not caused by the drug. You cannot say, "Oh scopolamine? It's a little like this, and a little like that.", because it's effects and potential are like nothing else that I have ever heard of in my life. There are lots of compounds which render a person helpless. Thorazine will make you motionless, silent, but awake. Roofies will render a person drunk looking and hazy, like a rag doll, and memory will be impaired. But scopolamine stands alone, as having no outward effect other than to render ones will utterly moot. That is a chemical with some absolutely horrific potential, and I think we should all be glad that it does not appear to have travelled as far as other exports from the region have!

a reply to: TrueBrit

In the documentary, something interesting was said though - "It leaves the victim unable to remember anything". So it's not just a drug that makes them agreeable, but also acts like a roofie while still being in control of their body.

They said the US government has used it starting in the 60's. What else happened in the 60's? JFK was assassinated, and If I remember correctly, wasn't that the one where the shooter said something like "I don't remember doing it" - or was that a more recent case?

If they were experimenting, is it not possible they had a reason to kill JFK, and that they used it on the patsy to get him to do the deed?

Is it not possible that over the years they have been molding the chemical compound into something that produces the effects we see in modern shooters?

a reply to: TrippyDips

The thing is, it would make no sense to engineer obvious side effects, into a drug whose only notable effect is memory loss and loss of will. Making someone look like they are on the King of come downs is not what you want in a drug meant for creating flesh puppets. The best thing they could do, would be to leave the drug as it is, because there is absolutely no way that investigating authorities are going to believe a shooter when he says "Methodically gunning down everyone in that building? I do not remember that at all. I woke up in custody and my hands smelled of cordite, but other than that I got nothing!". They will assume that the person is guilty as sin, knew exactly what they are doing, and are lodging their case for insanity in the most unbelievable way possible.

If you engineer a drug to be MORE obvious in its effects than it would be normally, that defeats any covert purpose it might have, because it inserts a question into the narrative of whatever event was caused while the perpetrator was under its influence, which might otherwise never be asked seriously.

Apart from the pharmaceuticals which seem to repeatedly play a part; it's got to be an intensely surreal situation for the person committing it, maybe it's in part the brain's way of coping with doing something so abhorrently unnatural and unthinkable.

a reply to: MagnaCarta2015

Again, it depends on the offender. Someone who has become temporarily disconnected from reality, enacted a fantasy, and then come back to reality amongst devastation can fall into a full on fuge state, which again, resembles zombie status far more than it does scopolamine victim status. That being said, people who experience extreme trauma of many kinds have been known to lock down entirely for prolonged periods, some even go fully catatonic for a time.

I think it would be a rare thing for a mass murderer to go into such a state, because the mindset of someone who is prepared to plan and follow through with a plan of mass murder, particularly a mass murder of complete strangers, is already in a state where their psychological topography is atypical, whereas the thing that sends people into the long silence of catatonic presentation, is usually a sudden change in circumstances (assuming no neurophysiological abnormality relating to a physical ailment, like a tumour or brain damage caused by physical injury or oxygen starvation).It is essentially a very long, very harrowing shock sensation, the mind unable to process the data it has received, because it is so utterly devastating.

In short, a peaceful life shattered by chaos is more likely to result in a fuge or zombie like status, than a mind which gradually becomes so sick as to consider mass murder, and then goes ahead and does the thing, although obviously, if ones fantasy takes over ones mind because of a pre-existing mental illness, and then one awakes later to find that one has been actually walking around ventilating everything in sight, one might be shocked enough to go off the deep end, but one could argue that if one has already been elbow deep in gore for the last three hours, that one has already left the station on the crazy train.

The mind is a strange thing.

a reply to: TrueBrit

It would if it was not working exactly as they needed it to. They claim, that it completely wipes the memory, but the interview with the woman proves that people can remember. She described what happened while under the effects of the drug (drinking the juice, entering he home and ransacking it, etc). So it was not quite as potent/powerful nor reliable enough, to be used in any form other than small time crime.

I really think that's a logical flaw (On noticeable effects). The goal isn't to hide the toxin, it's to get the person to commit the act. As far as things being covert, only enough for plausible deniability.

Other than that, agreed - normal people will go into a fuge like state after trauma (sometimes). This is when said person is most vulnerable to outside influences as well. That being said, like you, I do not think the shooter fell into a similar state. The only way that I could see that happening, is through massive amounts trauma, shattering his psyche until he no longer exists fully as one personality, but part time as multiple. (This amount of trauma would have to be sudden, not gradual)

By separating the personalities, the brain can protect the base self by going into states based on external factors. Multiple personalities, is not like the movies - well, rarely like them). Rather instead, During certain situations you won't feel certain emotions.

Example, when you are sad, another personality takes over, and you feel that personalities emotions instead - with most often the emotion that personality can't feel, being the one that caused it to surface. Whether it is fear, anger, or sadness. This isn't a good thing, in general (IME), none to one of those personalities will feel pleasure, with the rest being protection.




of note: The personalities can lay dormant for years. One more example...

Unhappy kid, hated family life growing up, was abused, develops multiple personalities. Every night, his/her dad would come into their room, undo his belt, wrap it around his hand, then let about 1ft of belt hang loose, then he would beat the kid.

Now years later, the child, who has since escaped that life, is in the locker room when a person takes their belt, wraps it around their hand, with about 1 foot of slack. The person swaps back to when they were a child, and the personality that would occur during the abuse. This state could then last anywhere from minutes to years.

The "zombie-like" recurring description is certainly interesting, but on its own it's not enough to conclude that any of these shooters have been 'mind-controlled'. If you were to dig into their personal histories and discover lengthy periods of time unaccounted for, that would be promising. You'd then need to drill deeper to establish whether or not this was at all suspicious.

Then, you need to look at the people around him (and it's always a 'him' isn't it). What did his family note about his behaviour? Was it in any way indicative of more than mere mental disturbance (illness or personality disorder)?

Finally, non-family. These guys are often 'loners' but were they in touch with some people who haven't been traced? Were they seen, e.g., target practising with an apparent mentor or guide?

You need to line up a lot of things (including maybe more than the above) before you can even propose some kind of MKULTRA scenario.