A question for Masonic Light and other Masons

Originally posted by akilles


Big deal. The important thing is that an Occult figure was drawn to the teachings of Masonry. Came to the light, so to speak. And then went on to use these teachings to spreading false truths.

To begin with, many "occult figures" have been drawn to Masonry, myself included. It was my interest in the occult that led me to study Masonry in the first place. But I find your comments concerning Crowley spreading "false truths" not only oxymoronic (there'e no such thing as a "false truth"), but also ridiculous. Crowley indeed taught great truths for those keen enough to comprehend them.

ML, did you know Clinton's father? Was he a good man?

I have no idea who Clinton's father was, except that he was a Mason and a liberal labor organizer. But I fail to see what he has to do with the current conversation.

Masonic Light, my friend, you never cease to amaze me; not only with your seemingly endless wealth of knowledge but also your patience in dealing with these trolls who seem to only want to cause disharmony and irritate others. My hat is, as always, off to you sir. You are a bigger man than I.

OK, sorry, not false truth. It was deliberate disinformation that he spread.

I suppose you will find that ridiculous as well, but I believe there is atleast one other 'universal rule' than 'Do what thou wilt."

Maybe its Karma is a boomerang. Maybe its paybacks a bitch, hell maybe its a little ditty, when you're not nice, bad luck times thrice.

So ML, your interest in Sex Magick, led you to Fraternity, are you in Masonry for a different kind of Love, Relief and truth? If you are, thats fine.

I love the fact that although Masonry accepts people from all faiths, it is the most sympathetic group in oh, THE WORLD to people involved in the Occult for the benefit of mankind, through secrecy, of course.

But religion is never discussed, and the occult is only there if you look for it, right?

Originally posted by akilles
OK, sorry, not false truth. It was deliberate disinformation that he spread.

I suppose you will find that ridiculous as well, but I believe there is atleast one other 'universal rule' than 'Do what thou wilt."

Maybe its Karma is a boomerang. Maybe its paybacks a bitch, hell maybe its a little ditty, when you're not nice, bad luck times thrice.

Do What Thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law does not mean "do as you please". It means to follow your true Will or purpose in life if you prefer.

By following your true Will you are prevented from interfering with others following their true Will as every will has it's own path to follow. So no Karmic reactions will occur from following the law of Thelema. :-)


[edit on 10-2-2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by akilles
OK, sorry, not false truth. It was deliberate disinformation that he spread.

I would argue, after having studied his works for many years, that Crowley never knowingly spread disinformation. What he did do was the same thing he said that Eliphas Levi did, i.e., "he still annoys dull people by his habit of diverting himself at their expense by making fools of them posthumously." (The Book of Thoth, p. 5)

I suppose you will find that ridiculous as well, but I believe there is atleast one other 'universal rule' than 'Do what thou wilt."
Maybe its Karma is a boomerang. Maybe its paybacks a bitch, hell maybe its a little ditty, when you're not nice, bad luck times thrice.

The term "Do what thou wilt" didn't even originate with Crowley, it was coined by Rabelais in "Gargantua and Pantagruel". When used by Crowley, it implied the basic doctrine of the mystic, i.e., that we are incarnated for the sole purpose of expressing the Higher Will, and that it is our duty to discover and obey it; and that without it, we are simply imbecile children wandering aimlessly without purpose.
Crowley didn't invent any of this, as this doctrine is the basis of all esoteric metaphysics; he simply was one of the first to publish it in plain language. Karma cannot really be separated from the formula of Love Under Will, since Karma is a product of the Higher Will's relation to the Lower.

So ML, your interest in Sex Magick, led you to Fraternity,

I'm not really interested in Crowley's form of sex magick that came from the O.T.O. But I am certainly interested in the mechanics of the orthodox system of Magick that he learned from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and which he expressed in the curriculum of the A.'.A.'.

I'm not a follower of Aleister Crowley, nor even a big fan, but I certainly give him credit for popularizing the Hermetic Qabalah through his vast writings.

But religion is never discussed, and the occult is only there if you look for it, right?

Just as it is impossible to separate Will from Karma, it is also impossible to separate religion from occultism. The word "occult" literally means those things that are hidden, and in mystical usage means that which is hidden from the senses. Therefore all religion by definition is occultic.

When we say that religion is not discussed in Masonry, we mean that we do not allow sectarian disputes in the Lodge, and that no one is discriminated against because of his religion. But Masonry is a vehicle for transmitting Philosophy, and the teachings of the major world religions are often presented in the degrees, especially those of the Scottish Rite.

Originally posted by akilles
So Crowley got his initiation from an irregular Lodge.

Big deal. The important thing is that an Occult figure was drawn to the teachings of Masonry.

You could have just as well as said:
"So Crowley got his initiation from a Moose Lodge. Big Deal, all of them Lodges are the same. The important thing is that an Occult figure was drawn to the teachings of Moosonry."

I still say the ATS critics of Masonry are 1 fundamentalist preacher and 2 fourteen year old boys with 50 ATS usernames. All of them living in a basement located in Battle Creek, Michigan.
.

DeMolay is not Masonry, nor a subgroup of it; it is a club founded by American Masons for their sons, but is entirely an US phenomenon and has nothing to do with Ancient Craft Masonry.

ML as I recall from my days as a DeMolay ( and I admit many suns have past since then) Frank S. Land the founder of DeMolay started the organization in1919 with 9 young men the first of whom had recently lost his father(a Mason), the others friends of his. It grew from there. Any chapter Must have a Lodge sponsership and a Master Mason as Chapter Dad and as i recall at least 3 Masons on its council. The workings of Demolay follow the pattern of Masonic ritual , but then so did Gardner.

At the time I was active I believe there were chapters in 7 countries. this may have change since, but it was The International Order of DeMolay. There were at that time 2 Sister Organizations , Jobs Daughters, and Rainbow Girls.
One required Masonic affiliation and one did not. It was a graet time and i remember it fondly.

The website for Demolay International is

here

Stalkingwolf,

You are certainly correct. My earlier comment was meant to point out that DeMolay (like Eastern Star, Shriners, Rainbow, Job's Daughter, etc.), were created in the USA by Masons, but are not "Masonic" in that they are modern auxiliaries and not part of Ancient Craft Masonry.

Yep you are right. But like the Masons do with misinformation or incorrect information about masonry i try to do the same for DeMolay. I read an account
recently by an associate of Jack Chick that said all Demolays wore "black hooded cloaks?

Stalking Wolf, you joined the DeMolay Youth at what age, and under what assumption?

What of accusations of abuse in the Boy Scouts? Have those accused been kicked out of Masonry, or have the children been labelled mischievous liars?

Stalking Wolf, you joined the DeMolay Youth at what age, and under what assumption?

first it is not nor never has been to my knowledge DeMolay Youth. At that
time it was The International Order of DeMolay. From their website i gather
the today the name has changed to DeMolay International. I was Initated
when I was 14. I made no assumptions.

www.demolay.org...

They have a very nicely done website there, I must say.

No qualms about lying on said site either:

Walt Disney
"a man with a vision, a self-made success who built an empire with his drawings"

Actually, Disney did not even do the drawings of Mickey for Steamboat Mickey! The movie was successful because of a large amount of free press support it got right from the first day (meaning connections, not chance occurence).

But hey, you'd expect them to just gloss over the truth. The way they call it Dad Land, well thats just creepy.

And the name, why its just because the idea of Knights is so noble, they decided to start this group to act as father figures based on the idea. Right...

Originally posted by akilles
No qualms about lying on said site either:

Walt Disney
"a man with a vision, a self-made success who built an empire with his drawings"

Actually, Disney did not even do the drawings of Mickey for Steamboat Mickey! The movie was successful because of a large amount of free press support it got right from the first day (meaning connections, not chance occurence).

But hey, you'd expect them to just gloss over the truth. The way they call it Dad Land, well thats just creepy.

And the name, why its just because the idea of Knights is so noble, they decided to start this group to act as father figures based on the idea. Right...

[edit on 2/14/05 by The Axeman]

I'm confused, but I'll add my 2¢ of what little I know.

One grandfather was a Mason and my mother was in Eastern Star. Both were religious, and in terms of loyalty family, church, and nation came before the lodge. It so happened they were affiliated with 2 lodges, one in a small town and one in Indianapolis. Both had christians and jews as members. My father did not believe in secret societies, so he refused to join, and that seemed okay with everyone.

Years later, I was invited to join in NY, but I declined because the lodge did not accept black people, and I refused to be part of any organization that discriminated. I do not know if the Masons now accept blacks or not.

Whilst I didn't like prejudice, I never had any sense there was ever any nefarious agenda in modern times at least. When it came to helping others or charity, their loyality to the lodge or even the church ever entered into the equation.

But hey, you'd expect them to just gloss over the truth. The way they call it Dad Land, well thats just creepy.
And the name, why its just because the idea of Knights is so noble, they decided to start this group to act as father figures based on the idea. Right...

.

once again you have shown you could not find your ass with both hands , a flash light and a road atlas. please next time have someone who has a
reading comprehension level above their shoe size read to you.

One brief comment is that if you're not a mason then you do not need to be speculating. Only one mason to the next can identify the truth and we are all in the same brotherhood (masons) so don't expolit any information out to the public that is not necessary to our defense.
Author...
Lodge # 551

How is 'lodge 551' supposed to be any kind of an identifier? There are a lot of them.

Also, please don't come here telling any members what they should and should not be doing, masons or non-masons, whether you are a mason or not.

Originally posted by Nygdan
How is 'lodge 551' supposed to be any kind of an identifier? There are a lot of them.

Also, please don't come here telling any members what they should and should not be doing, masons or non-masons, whether you are a mason or not.

Also, this thread is a year old. Instead of new members telling us what to do, maybe they should let threads like this just rest in peace.

To presume guilt without proof, in my humble opinion, is wrong. To assume guilt without proof, and by association, is even more wrong.

I don't know any Masons, and have no proof that Masons are guilty of anything, so I would never accuse one (or all) of them of any wrongdoing unless I felt I had ample reason to do so. Even if someone were a murderer though, I'd address them with greater compassion than some of the posts I've seen in this thread, to be blunt.

Since I know so little, the first thing I would need to know is if such a conspiracy as the one/ones being alleged is at all possible or probable. So my questions to any Mason qualified to know would be this:

Is it at all conceivable, when considered wholly apart from any personal or emotional considerations, and when viewed with complete objectivity, for there to be a relatively small number of high degree Masons with knowledge and powers of the sort that have been alleged, without your knowledge?

Then I would ask proponents of the conspiracy theory(ies) this question:

If the answer to the above question were yes, why would such a group of individuals have to be limited to Masons, and would it indeed not be far easier and more effective a means toward secrecy, to spread such a small group of individuals (however small it is believed to be) over various organizations, societies, fraternities, etc. rather than only one?