The Fermi Paradox and the "Prime Directive" (where are they?)

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

There's a cool paper that discusses the notion of a 'subanthropic principle.' This is the possibility that we (humanity) are actually not typical for the galaxy and are somewhat *less* intelligent and *less* developed than our hypothetical neighbours. The extension of that idea is our erstwhile neighbours could be several magnitudes smarter and conceal their existences for reasons of safety.

Something like that might account for what appears like a 'prime directive' or a 'quarantine.' Instead of our apparent loneliness being an outcome of an ETI no-go zone, it might be a symptom of our second-rate status regarding technology. Of course, that idea leads our thoughts towards *what* the others could be 'hiding' from (cue Jaws theme tune)??

As an analogy, picture a crying child in the middle of a No Man's Land. Various individuals might want to help that child, but not quite enough to break cover and be killed.

a reply to: SuperiorJ

There is no name that I know of, this is just hypothetical. Kandinsky's post regarding the Jaws of the universe that everyone is hiding from was what I was talking about. But like AnkhMorpork say's I'm assuming that the entity's at the top tier treat the universe as a hostile environment. I was not implying malice on behalf of these beings, simply that they as a form of survival maintain the status quo, they would simply be keeping their garden free of potential future conflict.

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

Good thread.

I forget the name of the theory, but it states that the chances of our civilization or another in the stars existing long enough to develop tech capable of meeting one another and then surviving long enough to find each other is staggering.

Like the Aztecs living long enough and the Romans living long enough to actually meet.

Civilizations rise and fall all the time. Ours could be gone very soon, and all the SETI broadcasts would be from a long dead civilization by the time they reach anyone.

Also, IMO, We have been forgotten in most cases. We are whats left of an older order. What ever is left of our neighbors and the fact that they may have moved leaving only a forwarding address, leaves me thinking that we have this block all to ourselves.

So much so that a past version of that old order travels in time for its exploration. They use time as way points to stars as they move about, and THEN travel to them after getting to the right time when the position of their destination was or will be more favorable.

So time travel, followed by space travel so as to overcome the fact that everyone is dead or moved on in physical space. Well, everyone worth visiting that is.

The UFOs we see could be, IMO, humans who speciated, or we are, from an original human family or group of human families from across time.

We are a quiet period that is needed on an important waypoint in time, from which contact is made with other parts of the empire, after traveling through space from this point in time.

If we were to get too advanced we could become like somali pirates living on an important space time corridor.

Reality is not as firm as some like to think.

I really do think this.

Also, we may have gone through a lot of trouble just to find this out. If you ever watched SG1, We may have gotten to the way point in our vicinity that the other races would meet at, only to find out that they are all dead or gone. We are the fifth race...lol.

Its a matter of time.....

As much as I like Sagan I would rather believe that FTL travel is possible and there are many other forms of life available out there. Habitable planets are abundant, the point in their life cycle is irrelevant to me. If we showed up and all that was there in our time was basic life that would still be exciting. Even if we did miss an empire there by a millenia or so.

What if that's the great puzzle for us all.
There's this unimaginably large area, teeming with life but, can you get there? Can you reach your brethren across all the challenges of space/time/physics?

I'd imagine that if we could solve those great challenges we would be very amicable to anyone we found.

originally posted by: In4ormant
As much as I like Sagan I would rather believe that FTL travel is possible and there are many other forms of life available out there. Habitable planets are abundant, the point in their life cycle is irrelevant to me. If we showed up and all that was there in our time was basic life that would still be exciting. Even if we did miss an empire there by a millenia or so.

What if that's the great puzzle for us all.
There's this unimaginably large area, teeming with life but, can you get there? Can you reach your brethren across all the challenges of space/time/physics?

I'd imagine that if we could solve those great challenges we would be very amicable to anyone we found.

Some astronomers (see here) recently announced their discovery of an Earth-like, potentially inhabitable planet orbiting Proxima Centauri 4.25 light years away. The Fermi Paradox is just plain irrelevant. Aliens travelling at half the speed of light from this planet would need only 8.5 years to reach us (for them, it would be shorter still because of relativistic time dilation at that speed). They could reach us in a much shorter time if they colonised bases on small bodies nearer to Earth not yet detected by astronomers. So confine this silly argument to the academic waste basket of history in which arrogant scientists pretending to know everything pontificated on pseudo-problems like how we could ever contact intelligent life elsewhere when everything seemed to be too far apart, thereby saving themselves the tacky problem (for them, that is) of explaining away UFOs. Those still entertaining this question never seem to imagine the possibility that aliens with lifespans of several thousand years could have created space stations or colonised small bodies from which they travelled convenient distances to Earth from original home planets too far away to make a single journey practical even for them. The paradox was created by Enrico Fermi in 1950 whilst working at Los Alamos to deal with (i.e., dismiss) all the contemporary reports about UFOs: make it impossible for aliens to visit Earth and all these reports could be instantly discredited without scientific investigation. One of the false assumptions in his argument was always that aliens were reliant on the same technology that humans use to travel in space and were not advanced enough to travel huge distances in stages, even though this was the way humans explored their own planet. Now, this latest discovery has shown it to be irrelevant. Where are aliens? Why - they are here (UFOs) and perhaps some of them come from this Earth-like planet orbiting Proxima Centauri!

a reply to: Kandinsky

Interesting take, but what I get out of it is that we're just not ready for contact, because of all the myriad implications that entails of exo-politics and societal impact etc. In other words, it would violate the Prime Directive by usurping our freedom and right to self determination.

I like the idea I raised earlier that there is a direct causal link between Disclosure, and an eventual formal contact that's mass consumed and processed and accepted, with all it's implications, which would represent a radical shift in our understanding of the universe and our place within it, along with the opportunity to hitch a ride to a home world, check it out and return.

If in fact, any government or extra government on Earth has made contact, you could lay a safe bet on the idea that human beings have already travelled on those ships, to be returned and debriefed in secret, or perhaps never to return, but to help with the process of eventual contact in all it's manifold implications so as to help pave the way via the process of interaction between both species..

But no doubt that any neighbors, either from within our own galaxy or another one, if they have such technology, make of us but the smallest children by comparison. They would be at the very least, almost assuredly, in the 10's of 1000's, 100's of 1000's or even more likely, millions or even tens of millions of years in advance, given the time spans of stable star systems capable of housing a long-range, stable, evolutionary development on a host planet, for example, when we look at our own and project forward with an all-safe, clear sailing prognosis for the next million years or more, amid ice-ages of course, but not insurmountable for survival and continued scientific and technological advance.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Excellent points!

Motherships, within our own galaxy over the needed time distances at sub-light speeds..

Inter-galactic travel, with so many species in the fish tank might involve all kinds of hairy issues, but if you've only got maybe 60 in any given galaxy, then that would be more manageable (I'm just thinking about it momentarily from God's perspective..).

That's also a distinct and perhaps more plausible scenario than instantaneous travel from all over the cosmos.

You gotta keep 'em separated! lol

The Offspring - "Keep Em Separated"

You gotta keep 'em separated

Like the latest fashion
Like a spreading disease
The kids are strappin' on their way to the classroom
Getting weapons with the greatest of ease
The gangs stake their own campus locale
And if they catch you slippin' then it's all over pal
If one guys colors and the others don't mix
They're gonna bash it up

Hey, man you talkin' back to me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated
Hey, man you disrespecting me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated
Hey they don't pay no mind
If you're under eighteen you won't be doing any time
Hey, come out and play

By the time you hear the siren
It's already too late
One goes to the morgue and the other to jail
One guy's wasted and the other's a waste

It goes down the same as the thousand before
No one's getting smarter
No one's learning the score
Your never ending spree of death and violence and hate
Is gonna tie your own rope

Hey, man you disrespecting to me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated
Hey, man you talking back to me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated
Hey they don't pay no mind
If you're under eighteen you won't be doing any time
Hey, come out and play

It goes down the same as the thousand before
No one's getting smarter
No one's learning the score
Your never ending spree of death and violence and hate
Is gonna tie your own rope

Hey, man you talkin' back to me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated
Hey, man you disrespecting me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated
Hey they don't pay no mind
If you're under eighteen you won't be doing any time
Hey, come out and play

Written by David Andrew Schommer, Samuel Hollander • Copyright
© Peermusic Publishing

play.google.com... cs

Intergenerational Mothership Scenario

The only problem with mother ships sent across 100's or 1000's of years, is that they lose their tether with their home world, and are left dangling in space with a beautiful planet as their sole object of observation. In other words, the intention of colonization would be implicit in sending those ships out, like von Neumann probes, which are designed to continually self-replicate and regenerate by say mining various planets on the way as intergenerational starships. To finally get to your destination and then be constrained from making it your home..and without direct contact or access to your home world, I don't know, sounds like a losing prospect all around..

Real time instantaneous travel otoh, makes the time distortion problem moot, so there's real-time data feedback and no need for giant motherships equipped with absolutely everything needed.

I must say too that it's not a comforting thought, an alien mothership parked right in our own backyard that has lost it's tether to it's home world because of the distance and speed travelled to get from there to here, sent only to observe and survey, but not interfere in any way..

I suspect that earth-like worlds are exceedingly rare, which is the main reason that we have been and are being visited by about 60 races with various types of ships that do not seem to be uniform as one might expect from a mothership scenario.

If the technology exists (instantaneous interstellar travel), then the problem of mass mayhem and interstellar warfare could be avoided by adherence to the Prime Directive, but it's probably something that goes along with the technology itself as I pointed out in the OP, where the hypothetical scenario is played out in advance move by move and from every conceivable angle and perspective and in every single case, the determination is made that this self-constraint and self-governance is needed to avoid a conflict with a higher power who is capable of enforcing the law. In other words, if you break the Prime Directive law, then you bring some heavy exo-political implications down on your head and risk being tossed out of the party ie: imprisoned or destroyed utterly or in some way severely reprimanded.

One other strong implication of such a vast group of interstellar travellers adhering to the Prime Directive, to maintain order in the house, is that they must form some sort of collaborative society of civilizations by some sort of mutual agreement that prevents and prohibits the possibility of interstellar warfare, which in the context of 100's or 1000's of such civilizations in the cosmos, or more, a whole lot of hurt could be unleased on various worlds and species in the event of a more aggressive, competitive framework.

Within this sort of context, if it's our destiny to reach the stars, then many of the problems and issues we are facing as a world today are in many ways preparing us for this type of eventuality ie: respect for individual national sovereignty, non-intervention, upholding standards of human rights and Liberty etc or the so-called mission of the United States as a global leader of this particular model, however poorly they've executed it to date.

There's also the issue of ascending technological advance in time, where we would simply be powerless to invade an already inhabited world with tech far far in advance of our own, although in this context, one wonders if each world would maintain any sort of defensive posture against the prospect of invasion and colonization..? Why would you bother if the whole premise is that you're facing a hierarchy of increasingly advanced technological powers and principalities who's inter-planetary legal framework you've already submitted to right out of the gate, so to speak. It would be a waste of energy and resources to build a war machine, even of a purely defensive nature, and you wouldn't want to be seen to be tooling up for that prospect in light of what's already been established by mutual agreement.

There would be some form of check and balances and a security apparatus in place of some kind though, one would think, and as far as a malevolent species who might fail to grasp the moral implications of gaining access to such technology, perhaps we are that species, and that indeed we are under quarantine and would be escorted on our first major transit to another habitable world, which is why I suggested earlier that it would be prepared for us, and the way made for us perhaps to help us learn the ropes before we go shooting off in every direction to colonize the galaxy and universe wherever possible.

So I would predict that there would be a whole variety of obstacles that would not be purely a matter of whether it's possible, but in terms of an inter-planetary society that we would have to fit into and work with, and what choice would we have if their science and technology was still a million years ahead of us? They probably don't have a 2nd amendment anyway, which would defeat the whole purpose.

Thus, their absence from our world again points to some high level organizational behavior that is founded in principals of Civility, Liberty and Mutuality and Respect, that we would be well served to start honoring, for real, if we're to ever find another perch among the stars where we would most assuredly be rather late to the party.

I think we'd have to send Ambassadors ahead to negotiate terms of visitation and/or potential habitation/colonization, and that when and if the day came, we would not be alone when making the transit/jump.

If I'm right, then they would be like future shepherds and teachers to help lead the way and to prevent us from falling victim to our own base instincts and hubris, or suffer dire consequences.

Maybe even at some level, they are Christian? Wouldn't that burn the atheists' asses if those lessons taught by the mouth of Jesus had to be re-taught to us by the aliens (and not without quoting Him vociferously) and taken to heart as a pretext to our quest for the stars when all the while they'd pinned their hopes on alien contact representing the end of any and all such religious nonsense!

Aliens: "Yes, but Jesus.."

There would have to be a wholly authentic model of Civilized Leadership in place, but oh the irony of it all if such a model was best personified here on Earth of all places..

I'm sure they appreciate a good joke told at the expense of human (and alien) ignorance, but could/can we?

"And the first shall be the last, and the last, first! Let all with ears (or their equivalent) to hear, let them hear!"

Also, if instantaneous travel were not possible, then it would not be possible to enforce the Prime Directive, if one civilization decided to take over the galaxy and colonize at sub-light speeds with motherships since where would any such security apparatus operate from if it was also bound by the same constraints and limitations of sub-light travel.

Therefore, at some level the paradox of where are the aliens would seem to support the idea of FTL, instantaneous "travel", since there's been plenty of time for any number of civilizations to have gotten here by multi-generational motherships and/or self-replicating von Neumann probes.

a reply to: CatandtheHatchet

There's a difference though between maintaining the status quo and adopting an aggressive posture that holds to a first strike strategy which is indeed malicious and malevolent towards upstart powers. Plus a might-makes-right, top down survival of the fittest and strongest approach along those lines would likely opt to be the first to colonize in any sort of race to spread out and harness more resources.

The doctrine of preemption implies perpetual warfare, and an ongoing strategy of tension to maintain and uphold their position at the top of the roost, and it sets a bad precedent in terms of the directed and coordinated energies of civilizations on the rise. Very oppressive, and authoritarian.

None of which bodes well for explaining the paradox of peace and quiet, unless all threats have been eliminated as you suggested, but that would be just brutal, and would run contrary to principals of Civility and Mutuality and winning the hearts and minds of future would-be cooperators, as opposed to freedom fighters..

Running the problem forward like a simulated chess game, and by the same logic, you could end up under attack amid the inability to patrol the whole universe and destroy all upstarts who might threaten the supremacy of your power..

Thus the principal of domination via the use of power to stamp out any and all rebellion against your authority could end up generating the very thing you're trying to guard against by fighting fire with fire.

Fear isn't a very good organizing principal for a Universal Civility. It would be like Nazi Germany having taken over the world just because they were the first to get the bomb say, which is something that was only narrowly avoided as it played out here on Earth.

Earth history, to the present day, teaches much in these areas I think.

If the aliens are there, and can traverse the stars in an instant, then we would be well served to shift our policy to begin to operate as a reflection of what will need to be projected if we ever hope to join this vast interstellar community, imho. And for our own safety as we approach such an age ie: if we are under a type of quarantine as well as observation.

Within this context, it would be exceedingly reckless to allow one of your ships to crash which could place the tech into the wrong hands at the wrong time, that would be a big no no, one would think..

I think I'm beginning to see why the government and various players have sought to keep a lid on this thing, because of the implications involved in the face of what is largely an unknown and a whole series of unknowns unless you're wired right into all the plays of all the players on the board. From a national and international security perspective, disclosure is an absolute nightmare.

However, the fact of it's reality really should inform policy moving forward, as part of the whole preparatory process of positioning humanity for a breathtaking development in our quest to reach for the stars.

Meanwhile, things are still peaceful in this neck of the woods..

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

Just want to say, awesome thread, full of awesome, thought-provoking posts!!

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

Meaning there is a bar preventing the universe from being travelled?

Unless Einstein and others are wrong it will take a long time to get there

No way to get from here to there?

Depends on where here and there is.

Now , there could be some form of stasis. Or other ways.

a reply to: Gothmog

As far as I'm aware, and I'm certainly no physicist, but I've done a lot of reading up on popular science books and issues, Einstein's theory, while valid, is incomplete and has not yet been reconciled with quantum physics in the form of a new unified field theory of quantum gravity. There have also been developments in the study of the quantum vacuum energy field or zero point field, which reveals a whole ocean of light at the very bedrock of the universe.

Also, if we consider the very real possibility, according to a whole cadre of pilots and military and government officials, that some UFO's are in fact, intelligently controlled REAL and solid ET spacecraft, then there's also the sticky problem of an apparent violation of the laws of motion and intertia, which seems to suggest that you can turn a dial the other way on mass relative to some as yet undiscovered field and retain a perfectly controlled gravitational field within the ship or field-bubble that it generates, while turning at right angles without any alteration in momentum, which suggests an inertial field in a domain of physics that we've not yet discovered.

It's some new understanding of the nature of gravity, mass and inertia.

What I strongly suspect, is that there's some sort of loophole in the physics of the zero point field that open's up that field to a whole new understanding of the nature of mass, intertia, and gravity, and lo and behold didn't a physicist or two of them not manage to derive the equation of F=MA from complex mathematical calculations involving the zero point field!

Brilliant Disguise: Light, Matter and the Zero-Point Field, by Physicist Bernard Haisch*

Einstein turned conventional wisdom about the relationship between mass, energy and light, on it's head, but light as a quantum phenomenon, integrating that into his theory for a GUT or grand unified theory, is something that eluded him but that he spent the rest of his life in search of.

Might it then not be in the realm of possible that another field and another understanding of the nature of gravity, mass and light or a theory of quantum gravity, might not be still waiting in the wings for some other "Einstein" to come along and once again turn our conception of mass and inertia relative to light on it's head, by for example, say tricking the universe into thinking of your little ship as a photon of light and then somehow navigating through that domain, without motion, as if bringing it to yourself within a domain where it's available as a choice based on some sort of map of the universe, not as it was, but as it IS now, here and everywhere whereby that very field of space-time is suddenly transcended in some sort of zero point field hyperspace environment (sailing on the ocean of light).

Bear in mind that from the point of view of light itself, that the domain is timeless and spaceless with everything touching and all potential information available.

Therefore I predict that if we ever manage to measure the zero point field and find that we can somehow determine what's actually in it, right now, and begin the process of mapping that domain, we might end up charting the ocean in a whole new way, which by it's very nature would implicitly serve as a potential navigation tool, given the farthest reaching implications of the new theory itself. Both would arise at the same time, the new physics, and the new map of what is, in real time (without having to wait for the starlight to get here), and then the way would be opened, even if it were to take a century or more to come up to speed with the practical implications and await patiently for the new technologies to emerge piece by piece over the course of decades. I think it's inevitable. And, that the evidence of alien visiting to Earth cannot be disregarded outright.

If they've got it, somewhere, then it's freely available for our own discovery, and I think we're getting close and that I'm on the right track with this zero point field grand unified quantum gravity physics that's just waiting in the wings for a profound discovery notion that will one day take humanity to the stars - which would be a pretty freaky proposition if you happen to be an alien who's manning the quarantine, but who's also bound by the Prime Directive.

* Footnote: Bernard Haisch is an astrophysicist whose professional positions include Staff Scientist at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory, Deputy Director for the Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics at the University of California, Berkeley, and Visiting Fellow at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany. His work has led to close involvement with NASA; he is the author of over 130 scientific papers; and was the Scientific Editor of the Astrophysical Journal for nine years, as well as the editor in chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

Bernard Haisch

According to Haisch, intertia is not possessed by the mass at all, but is a function of the resistance provided by the zero point field. That's both a localized AND a non-local phenomenon and relationship. F=MA.. Makes you wonder if it could be turned on it's head..

And how DO you derive a postulate by Isaac Newton while doing math on the quantum vacuum field anyway? Answer that question and we might be half way there already..!

a reply to: dogstar23

Presuming some (aliens) may read ATS and if word gets around.., I'd like to think that we've raised enough possibilities here, that if the jury was out on Earth's destiny as an interstellar species, that we might be able to gain a reprieve since the double-edged sword of Civility (that comes from the mouth of Jesus Christ), slices in both directions where it always takes two to tango so to speak and by that I'm not making any covert or overt threats towards anyone on behalf of humanity but simply pointing out that where Civility may be defined as: Consciously motivated organizational behavior that is ethical in submission to a higher power, that it could very well be that there's always a higher power and that because of Jesus, yes, him, it could be said that we have a friend in very very high places whereby the higher always and forever serves, and protects, the lower, from any form of predation by any power or principality whether of this world or beyond, so while we might be like the new kid on the block we're one who's elder brother shared(s) a kindship with the first Father of all creation and who, it should be added, required no military hardware to get the job done, and lay out a model of authentic Civilized leadership that before condoning any violence or destruction whatsoever, would willingly be crucified for the sake of love.

One is reminded here of the role of the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son! (oh dear)

In other words, the highest power in the system could be hurtling our way with malicious intent only to discover that our big brother and Father in heaven also has our best interests at heart, so it would be a fool's errand right out of the gate. Why? Because for God, all things are possible..

So maybe that's why the little guy and the new kid on the block is both visited but never messed with, and let's not forget either that in the context of a non-local, holographic universe, the most recent addition is likely to represent an improvement at some fundamental level, but the reason no one should be jealous of the lost son, returned (who whored all over hell's half acre living riotously and laying waste his inheritance that was given in advance), is because we're all part of one family of a loving God, human and alien both, and we all makes mistakes and form opinions that only change as new information presents itself. We are brothers, in Christ, who is many things and goes by many names in many places, hallowed be thy name.

So it's a predicament, that everyone shares, this Prime Directive, and also a heavy burden but one made lighter by the one who willingly carried it first.

"Why do you marvel at these works of mine? You will do even greater things than these!"

LOL

Best regards, to all with ears (or their equivalent) to hear let them hear!

AnkhMorpork

I'm not entirely serious of course, but maybe partly (hey ya never know..).

my last post, unless someone decides to chime in..

An Alien Abduction/Invitation: The Higdon Ordeal

If this story is true, then it would appear that the "Prime Directive" can be a little more free-wheeling than we've otherwise attributed to it.

I'm just glad that the skies have not filled up from horizon to horizon with alien ships of every make and model under the suns.

So in summary, at least they're relatively discreet and selective about it, but as a Canadian I have to say that taking our Elk, or Moose, either/or, is really pushing the envelope!

There is one other distinct possibility that has come to me and that is this.

We are part of a great big "farm" that is grown and harvested, for seeding in various worlds, and that from a socio-political or exo-sociopolitical perspective, by the time we get "there", "we" will already be there to great us in a not entirely dissimilar form, but perhaps altered to perfectly adapt to a particular biosphere and gravity.

In other words the role of Columbus has already been taken, perhaps millions of times over, but that there is something very special and unique about Earth as well.

The way has already been paved, to help introduce and mould us favorably in a particular direction without at the same time usurping our freedom and right to self determination.

We will find, I believe, that according to the Prime Directive, this particular path was chosen and had to be chosen in order for humanity to effectively interact with and participate with, the larger galactic or intergalactic society, where everyone already knows, generally, what most everyone else is up to and most certainly where they are situated, according to a map of the universe that we simply have not yet discovered, but that when we do, the fundamental predicament of the quarantine arises, which will have long, longgg ago, already been resolved as in the allegory of the Prime Directive question as a simulated chess match, and who knows maybe they even fought it out quite literally at one time over Ancient India!

This resolution to the problem of the Prime Directive in light of the Fermi Paradox (where are all the aliens?, or otherworlders? I should say) suggests that a fundamental principal of Civility (with a Capital C, and as already defined) always and forever carries with it an arrow of leadership, since at the end of the day there is always a choice to be made (and an attachment to an outcome) while considering every possible contingency and working to stay ahead of the curve where such matters are concerned, in this case matters of potential destruction or, of an endless journey into new life with new and marvelous wonders awaiting every turn.

Choose life - it states in the Bible.

If that's what they've done, then a glorious new "long-Earth" awaits humanity..!!!!! (if we're not all alone in the Universe)

Otherwise, it would be a rather sticky wicket for any ET manning a quarantine the day the next Einstein finally solves the unified field theory of quantum gravity.

If it's inevitable, then what we'll discover will be a very well travelled map of appropriate targets, covered with breadcrumbs.. let us hope they've chosen for us well.

Does this mean that we could still choose our own destruction?

Oh where is that final, point-of-no-return cusp; that demarcation point and threshold of our collective salvation as a species and world?!!!

Dare we reach for the stars as if we might some day touch them directly?

It sure looks like the type of ocean that one could traverse, someday.

But the time to begin preparing for it, in everything we do from here on in, is surely now, and if not us, then who?

Who says it's not the end of the world, or, the discovery of a new one already prepared like a Bridegroom for his Bride (humanity)?

Choose life!

Best wishes,

AnkhMorpork

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

Great Thread!

What if the physics/technology needed for FTL only become apparent when a civilization has reached a certain level of enlightenment (the Tao of Physics). I imagine a Buddha-like being or race having the holistic universal view that allows one to perceive the true nature of reality making FTL or interstellar travel an aspect of mind and thought as much as it is (or at the same time that is) physics/technology. In other words, only when a race has achieved a holistic balance of spirit, mind and technology is FTL/insterstellar travel feasible.

Heh... if you imagine this, it might explain why aliens (angels/gods/etc.) are always trying to instill religions on us in an attempt to bolster our spiritual side (in apparent disregard of a Prime Directive perhaps)... Too bad we turn out to be so f'in backward that we turn those religions into yet another reason to fight - sorry gods/aliens/angels... nice try...

Sah

a reply to: Sahasrara

Interesting post. Thank you for your contribution.

That was my thinking, that they've considered all the angles and that the nature of such a breakthrough carries with it some sort of moral and spiritual equivalency, and yet where they've tried everything in the book to try to keep us on the straight and narrow and show us something of the larger context and framing.

"Oh what is man that thou art mindful of him?"

I just hope we get to that place, before they say, step aside from interfering with an ELE meteor on it's way to Earth or some such thing.

I see it as filled and ripe with predicaments and where things have come to a head and will again.

My sense is that if we don't begin to shift policy in anticipation of this larger framework, that it could be dangerous and have far reaching consequences for when such a technological breakthrough might take place, because the problem with people is that anything we can do, we will do.

Here's another possibility based on a MAD (mutually assured destruction) viewpoint.

Maybe, in the same way that E=MC2 released the power of the splitting of the atom, that the FLT breakthrough also carries with it planet destroying capability.. and thus, the moment that you unravel it, you stop and think twice about the implications of the "Prime Directive" and of non-intervention for the prevention of interstellar warfare where the destroyer of worlds are themselves destroyed.

I detect a very grave and weighty policy shift implication in the mere contemplation of the implications of the Fermi Paradox within the context of the fact and the reality of FTL transit between the stars, as evidenced by the fact that SOME UFO's are intelligently controlled spacecraft that have bridged the divide of space and time that otherwise separates us.

Does that make sense?

Nut just Roswell, but multiple crash sites..

This is a fascinating documentary



The Fermi Paradox appears to have been resolved with FLT or instantaneous transit between vast distances, as evidenced by their presence here on earth.

Which raises the question, beyond the cover up, if some sort of shadow government with loose ties to Navy Intelligence and the CIA, has actually made contact with an alien civilization or civilizations..

That's what I would do, beam them a message with a meeting location somewhere remote, and try to get volunteers on board those ships, to be debriefed upon return, although any such volunteers would probably be placing their life in jeopardy if they did come back.

That would be my aim, to help bridge the divide and get to know what they're up to. Get our people on board those spaceships, for a tour..

But their crashing a few of their ships on Earth, that would be a big no no one would think, but could provoke some form of contact ie: if you've already lost some equipment and personnel to some classified government organization. Both sides might want to "set the record straight" and come to a meeting of the eyes (or their equivalent).

Anyway, these issues point to the very high probability of some sort of collaborative framework between these advanced civilizations where none of them have become and thus do not appear to intend to become, a malevolent invading force, or they would have already done so, and that, therefore, the non-intervention "Prime Directive" must be somehow interwoven into the framework of some sort of intergalactic law and order based on principals of a shared, mutual best interest for all involved.

I think that if we ever wish to join them, and to participate in a whole new way, that it might be wise and even prudent and as a safety precaution, in the face of such technological prowess, to begin to imagine what such a framework might entail, based on logical and reasonable presuppositions ie: they're here but no one's landing on the Whitehouse Lawn or otherwise making their presence known en mass, and then start formulating and shaping policy with such a technological advance in mind, beginning with the end in mind so to speak.

Earth: Our unmolested planet, in real time (with nice music), compliments of NASA.