is high school all that effective?

High school: the big final step before college, before independence. The last chance for a student to cling to the illusion that soicety is nice to them, that life will be easy. Albeit, by junior and senior year a student becomes much more independent, what with the ability to drive, cololege applications, keeping grades up and whatnot, shouldnt the high school currculum reflect that independence?

Pardon my naive interpretation of the high school curriulum, but it seems to me (especially in classes such as english) that a teacher focuses more oin adhering to a schedule than to a student's individual learning. I agree that the facts are indeed important, and they are essential in the analytical process, but wouldnt it make more to, instead of assigning specific approved books, allow a student to instead choose a book themelves, sumazirze it for the teacher, and analyze it?

This would most definetly increase the work load of the teacher, but it would be infinetly more effective in teaching the student to think for themselves. Somewhat of the same philosophy goes for the sientific and numerical teachings, such as mathematics and physics. for example, if student wishes to become an aeronautical engineer, is it really necessary for them to learn to find a variable in a logarithmic function (this is an opinion: having just been introduced to aeronauical engineering briefly, i have not been exposed to it's intricacies, sorry if i made a mistake in my evaluation) THe point is, wouldnt it be more effective to choose courses and curiculums that sister each other?

i realize the enormous implications of what im saying, and i realize that it would be extremely difficult to employ a system like thise, but my main point is simply that it would be more effective to allow students to achieve collegic independence midway through high school, to better prepare them for college and, subsequently, life as an adult.

if i made any mistakes in any evaluations, or if i left out an important piece of information, or... well it would be an invaluable resource if you could brutally rip this anlysis apart with a fine toothed comb, and i would be greatly indebted to you. I am always willing to concede a point (or several points) and willing to learn form my mistakes.

Increase the workload of the teacher. lol High school teachers are incapable of such things. Specific Example:Teacher Strike during 1999 At Bayview S.S (Ontario Canada), the government imposed a law for teachers to spend more with students. Teachers at Bayview erupted in anger, and all classes were deemed 90% propaganda. All extra cirrucula activities died off in the process to.

Did you know the UN decides what books your allowed to read in High School english? I just say, the voters should vote for everything! No lobbyists, no more BS! Everyone should have to take a small chorse in goverment that shows Thomas Paine as Philospher, not a propagandist(it's even in his own book of essiental writings in its introduction to be PC.). He should the American people why to fight the British and if the people were allowed to read books like "The Art of War" and "The Prince", and were taught to be weary of their leaders; there would be riots. The problem is that the UN dictates to the world what is acceptable for AP students in middle schools("The Prince" & "The Art of War"), but for normal students it's Bill Shakespeare and John Steinbeck till the cows come home.

It didn't stop me, and if you wanna do something try pushing up to the national level for students pick what they learn, like we do. I'm in retail, and I still study stuff I'm suppose to be too naive and dumb to understand.
Go and do it, and read my signature if you have a bad day! Good Luck! Push your county and state to change the curriculum by being pushy, annoying, and ornie to the polictians who question your authority of what you learn; b/c it's technicaly in the 1st Amendment! Go! Go! Go! I told ya' to leave already....Go and make one BIG difference for us all on ATS!!:.)

Schools seem to concentrate more on politically correct agendas than on education these days.
Educational system ? Indoctrinational system more like.
It looks as if they want our next generation to be more like the Borg than thinking human beings.

Originally posted by waldheimat
Pardon my naive interpretation of the high school curriulum, but it seems to me (especially in classes such as english) that a teacher focuses more oin adhering to a schedule than to a student's individual learning. I agree that the facts are indeed important, and they are essential in the analytical process, but wouldnt it make more to, instead of assigning specific approved books, allow a student to instead choose a book themelves, sumazirze it for the teacher, and analyze it?

I think this depends entirely on the teacher. ENTIRELY. Some people shouldn't be in teaching at all, but unfortunately they are very present in our school systems.

I have found my own personal experience in high school to be very different from what you describe. Ive had three different english teachers...ALL of them put very much focus on individual learning, making sure to listen to the problems of each person if they either noticed something wrong, or if the students came to them.

They ALL made their schedules fairly flexible...and when it came to choosing books to read and analyze, we either got to choose from a list (that's the stuff on the curriculum), which we could add to if we found a better one that wasn't there, or got to completely choose ourselves (for stuff like book 'reports'...not quite reports in high school, very different format...we study/analyze content, not summarize)

Finally, my latest english teacher..is probably the most understanding of all

Due dates, are just dates...nothing more... in her words "I understand that at this age (17-18), students have busy lives. If you can't meet a deadline talk to me and we'll work something out"

And things always work out. As long as it comes in before it's handed back, which could take weeks sometimes, it's all good.

Anyways that's just a few of my experiences. My school generally has good teachers that are reasonable human beings. (It's public, btw, not private).

Anyone who isn't, shouldn't be in teaching. Anyone who demands everything is done their way, or entirely by the book, is just power-hungry.

[edit on 18-1-2005 by anjeeeee]

That's how most of my teachers were in H.S. (public also), Anj .. But to a bit of a lesser degree. Which is completely understandable if you do the math: 30-37 kids per class per period (7 periods in a day) makes for 210 to 259 students (and If the teacher is teaching a 2x 1 semster classess, it's even more). It's a wonder most of my teachers could remember my name (although I *do* kinda stand out in a crowd)...

i am quite envious of you... being that you have had such good teachers. id have to say i have an incredible teacher at my high school (i go to a private catholic high school, so thankfully the predetermined book bans dont apply as much politically as religiously, but even with the religious restriction we get to read some pretty good books, and the teachers are allowed to recommend works such as Marx without being eligibile for illegality in their action) Anyways, this man has taught me to view the world in a different light. i believe my change from mindless automated socialite conformist, as reared by my father, though he tactfully called it "fitting in", came when i realized my father was in fact a liar in most of what he did (personal issues involving adultery: you can imagine how my faith in him droped like a brick) At this point in time i began to listen more to my mother, and i began to adjust my view on society by the end of freshmen year. i am embarrased to say that i was indeed a "damned rebel" at this time, mindlessly rebelling and trying to stand out as different (since then i realized i was just grasping for attention). Im offon a tangent: this english teacher was brilliant. he opened my mind to so many new works and authors that i had never even heard of, or heard of and never felt compelles to read, and because of him i found a profound interest in them. He taught me well how to analyze works, and i still visit with him in the half hour i have right after classes and before wrestling/other sports every day. i find his views birlliant. My current english teacher, on the other hand, acts as if she and she alone posseses the much coveted "golden key to literature", and when she teaches us, she teaches us her own views. i write down the notes, do well in the class, but debate her to the point that she threatened to kick me out of the honors program if i keep disruptinbg the class. Anyhow, it is teachers like these, that treat personal views with such distain (and its not just me, its everybody in her class with the marked exception of two female students: i guess i should mention our teacher is a self-described feminist) that a person feels as if it is negative for them to participate ( i would know because i asked several classmates) it seems that she tries to quell any questioning or analysis other than her own personal analysis because she is afraid of being incorrect. In contrast between sophomore year honors english and junior year honors english, i wish that all my teachers were as good as my open minded sophomore year teacher. So yes, i must say there are excellent teachers out there, but the predetermined curriculum (which my sophomore year teacher did not follow at all other than vocabulary [i idolize this man]) coupled with lazy or wannabe know-it-all inidividuals who by some trick of fate are assigned to actually teach, really brings down the potential quality of education.

Anjeeeee: (sorry dont know how to bold it) i definetly agree it relies entirely on the teacher, although i may have overlooked that while i was writing.sincere thanks to you for pointing that fact out to me and reitorating it in my mind.

[edit on 18-1-2005 by waldheimat]

[edit on 18-1-2005 by waldheimat]

[edit on 18-1-2005 by waldheimat]

Waldheimat says:

"High school: the big final step before college, before independence. The last chance for a student to cling to the illusion that soicety [sic] is nice to them [sic] , that life will be easy. Albeit [sic] , by junior and senior year a student becomes much more independent, what with the ability to drive, cololege [sic] applications, keeping grades up and whatnot, shouldnt [sic] the high school currculum [sic] reflect that independence?

"Pardon my naive interpretation of the high school curriulum [sic] , but it seems to me (especially in classes such as english [sic] ) that a teacher focuses more oin [sic] adhering to a schedule than to a student's individual learning. I agree that the facts are indeed important, and they are essential in the analytical process, but wouldnt [sic] it make more [sic] to, instead of assigning specific approved books, allow a student to instead choose a book themelves [sic] , sumazirze [sic] it for the teacher, and analyze it?"

"This would most definetly [sic] increase the work load of the teacher, but it would be infinetly [sic] more effective in teaching the student to think for themselves. [sic] Somewhat of the same philosophy goes for the sientific [sic] and numerical teachings, such as mathematics and physics. for [sic] example, if student wishes to become an aeronautical engineer, is it really necessary for them to learn to find a variable in a logarithmic function (this is an opinion: having just been introduced to aeronauical engineering briefly, i have not been exposed to it's [sic] intricacies, sorry if i made a mistake in my evaluation) THe [sic] point is, wouldnt [sic] it be more effective to choose courses and curiculums [sic] that sister each other?"

Normally I don't do this, Waldheimat, but when quoting someone, it is considered standard form to use the term "[sic]" (from the Latin "thus") to emphasize that you really are quoting your source exactly. In other words, those aren't my egregrious mistakes in spelling and grammar, Waldheimat; they are yours.

Wald, you cannot communicate very well. My first undergrad major was English, and later I took a BS in engineering; I am now an engineering manager at The Boeing Company.

If I saw your resume, I'd throw it in the trash, because businesses need people who can communicate concisely and clearly, whether they are accountants, engineers, buyers, contract administrators, or just about any job at all beyond custodians.

If you are a high school student, you almost certainly don't know enough about literature to be able to pick your own books and analyze it; part of a high school education is to open up your horizons by having you read those common works that define our culture. These include Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Descarte, Voltaire, Bryon, Keats, Shelley, Browning, Kipling, Twain, Eliot, Stevenson, Hopkins, DuBois, Hughes, Sandburg, Frost, Lewis, Tolkein, etc.

You say: "it would be more effective to allow students to achieve collegic independence midway through high school, to better prepare them for college and, subsequently, life as an adult."

No. You must learn the rules before you can break them; you must understand the basics before you can go off on your own. If you want to write blank verse, fine; but learn the difference between a Petrarchian and an Elizabethan sonnet first.

Learn to communicate! If you can write clear, concise, and coherent prose, you will never have to look for a job.

Now go take on the day, and buy a copy of Strunk and White's "Elements of Style".





[edit on 18-1-2005 by Off_The_Street]

i honestly had no idea about those mistakes. And thank you, for clearing that up. i will indeed take your advice, and take it a step further by making it a point to ask my teachers for help on the matter. Once again, i cannot thank you enough for bringing my errors to my attention. Im honestly glad... ive been looking for brutal and fine toothed analysis... thank you (i cant say it enough)

As a side note, thank you also for mentioning those authros in your reply: as soon as midterm exams are over, ill make it a point to read at least one or two books from the authors i did not know about.

im also a little confused about your "[sic]" reference, in that i still dont know what it means... would it be okay if i U2U'd you to ask if youd explain it to me? if not ill ask a teacer but... im intrigued. and my lack of understanding is due entirely to...well... lack of understanding on my part.

Thank you for bringing me back down a few notches... that it the most straightforward analysis ive had in a while and it is indeed refreshing.

As another side note... The spelling/grammar msitakes you mentioned were there because i did not revise the draft after writing it. Thank you for pointing them out, though, because i honestly am beginning to forget about grammar/spelling. Thank you for putting me on the alert once again... why on this reply i find myself checking for grammar/spelling mistakes. Thank you, once again, for bringing them to my attention, and i will make a serious effort to work on my spelling/grammer henceforth.


[edit on 18-1-2005 by waldheimat]

"It looks as if they want our next generation to be more like the Borg than thinking human beings."

That has always been the intension of the school system. If people were allowed to persue their own interests then the masses would be harder to control.
People tend to try to associate themselves with people who think the same way they do. Making everyone learn the same things and therefor think the same way dose a lot to stop people from forming small groups.
The whole point of the school system is to make sure the masses are loyal to a single society.

[edit on 18-1-2005 by TruthResearcher2000]

But if they get rid of high school, how will all the kids learn Spanish when we go bilingual?


I'm only halfway serious there.

We all went through high school, didn't we? We are not all idiots, are we? Ofcourse the system has its flaws, that doesn't mean it doesn't have plus points. Instead of accusing it of being bad, we should try to make it better.

Surf

how can we make it better, when the UN is basically deligating the cirricumlims world wide, including the United States, and APA is giving out drugs so much, they make a hussler seem like a nice guy? It contridics political agendas and the NWO's agenda so they discredit us, teach the masses BS or half truths and then make a college system of math classes for one to pass to get a decent degree, when we have a reading(full language)based system to keep the smart from getting up, unless they are a "Whore".

Originally posted by BSB2005
how can we make it better, when the UN is basically deligating the cirricumlims world wide, including the United States, and APA is giving out drugs so much, they make a hussler seem like a nice guy? It contridics political agendas and the NWO's agenda so they discredit us, teach the masses BS or half truths and then make a college system of math classes for one to pass to get a decent degree, when we have a reading(full language)based system to keep the smart from getting up, unless they are a "Whore".

Encourage self thought. I am sure we had one of two teachers who encouraged us to go out there and do your own research. I for sure had one, who got me into all these kind of stuff. I doubt the UN, even the U.S. Gov't can stop self thought.

This may sound like a stupid thought, but how in the hell did you guys get the thought that U.N. is controlling our books. They have much better things to do other than worrying about what the teenagers are reading, at least I hope they got something else better to do.

Surf

Maybe it's just me, and I'm the only one, but I had this amazing thing in highschool, called a "Library". Yeah, we got to go there on special occasions to pick a book to read and report back to the teacher with an overview/analysis. I never knew the school systems were as "bad" as they seem in this thread. I mean, yes, there is a lot that could be changed to make it better, But I don't see how they(UN) can control what books you read when you have a library full of books, and if the books weren't in the school library, we had the public library that we could also check out.

Take it from someone who was a non conformist in high school (read drugged out dumb fu--) I agree the average High School curriculum sucks. But lucky for you it also shouldn't take up too much of your time, do your own research read books for fun, and basically take about 70% of what teachers say with a grain of salt. But most importantly just do the stupid work, it sucks but it'll teach you persistence if nothing else. Otherwise you could end up like me and be a freshman in College at 23.

its not as simple as visiting the school library any more. You see, recent developments in sensitivity towards racism/sexism/anything else that is not all-inclusive have sparked great controvesry within people that convinced themselves that they have a just cause and frankly have nothing better to do, the consequences being that the public school curriculum suffers as a whole from these actions. The point of this post was to critique said intrusion in the learning and advancement of High schoolers, in that said books, by great writers such as Mark Twain, are indeed banned due to one or two racist references to slavery. Of course one can visit the public library and read these books, but lets face it: the majority of teenagers (i speak from observation) is not interested in such literature any more, and i believe that thi disinterest is due to these bannings of brilliant works. If world society would stop being so anal and taking references at face value due to a negative spin placed on said references and words by modern society, then i believe that education, especially in America with all its glorious diversity, would improve drastically. Who knows, maybe teenagers might (god forbid) even begin to LIKE reading!