Atlantis and the Bible (2 parts)

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Marduk
At the end of the Uruk period there was an archaeologically attested river flood in Shuruppak. Polychrome pottery from a destruction level below the flood deposit has been dated to the Jemdet Nasr period (3100–2900 BC). that immediately preceded the Early Dynastic I period

There's no evidence the Egyptians knew about that or knew much about the history of other nations much before the Greeks took over.

(in the same respect as other countries before 600 BC really didn't know much about Egypt's history.)

Egypt and Mesopotamia had been trading since predynastic Egypt
I'm surprised you don't know about it

a reply to: TarzanBeta

thanks for the explanation

The people that care are the few. The human default is selfishness and there is simply far too much evidence of that.

I don't believe that , there is too many evidence that people by dark forces were manipulated now and in the past.
Don't trusth thy neighbour , is divide and conquer that's how masses are controlled.

...s like finding a flower in a lava flow that isn't burned.

And that's what I meant evil is in the encounter with the 'lava' . not in the flower...

good is in all of us.. to get back on the topic (Atlantis) that's why I can't believe that an Almighty God destroyed a whole civilization. I can't believe that an Almighty God kills children ? How does that differ from Saturn eating/killing his offspring ?

The good is in everyone of us , and again Atlantis was good and also a problem (Christians) because these people didn't believe in God.

a reply to: Marduk

And egypt had been trading with Minoans since the Minoan prepalatial period.
The Minoans even had their own port city

The site at Tell el-Dab'a, covering an area of about 2 square kilometers, is in ruins today, but excavations have shown that, at one point, it was a well-developed center of trade with a busy harbour catering to over 300 ships during a trading season. Artifacts excavated at a temple erected in the Hyksos period have produced goods from all over the Aegean world. The temple even has Minoan-like wall paintings that are similar to those found on Crete at the Palace of Knossos. A large mudbrick tomb has also been excavated to the west of the temple, where grave-goods, such as copper swords, have been found.

Avaris/Tell el Daba

Much has been said about the importance of the paintings and their origin. The question of why these paintings appear in the Thutmosid palaces is a perplexing question for archaeologists and Egyptologists. According to Bietak, the use of specific Minoan royal motifs in a palace in Tell el-Dab'a indicates "an encounter on the highest level must have taken place between the courts of Knossos and Egypt." Manfred Bietak offers us one hypothesis. He points to the presence of Minoan royal emblems, the full scale griffins, and the large representation of the female in the skirt might suggest a political marriage between Thutmose III and a Minoan princess. The paintings are unique. They are one of a kind, and they compare with artwork from Knossos. Nanno Marinatos has made the case that the rosette motif, which is a prominent feature of the Taureador paintings, reproduces the Knossian rosettes and that it is a distinct Minoan symbol. In regards to Egypt, the paintings reveal an international era of cultural interaction between Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean. They also point to Tell el-Dab'a as a place where these cultural exchanges took place, meaning the city was incredibly important to Egypt. Marinatos has additionally argued that the Tell el Dab'a paintings are evidence of a koine, a visual language of common symbols, which testifies to interactions among the rulers of neighboring powers. The marriage of a Minoan princess to an Egyptian pharaoh may be one possible scenario but there are other ones. Minoan Knossian authority was involved in Egyptian affairs possibly because Crete had a strong naval force to offer the pharaoh.

Minoan Frescos at Tell el Daba

a reply to: punkinworks10

Minoa was destroyed by a volcanic eruption

Shuruppak was destroyed by a flood

Atlantis was destroyed by a flood

Akkadian became the diplomatic language of Egypt and Mesopotamia before Minoa was destroyed

I could go into the other matches to Platos account, like it being situated on a flood plain 2000 x 3000 stadia, the elephants, the surrounding mountains, the ruling twins, the alternating concentric rings of land and water, being outside the Mediterranean, the high population density, controlling other states of the period, canals for irrigation
etc etc etc, none of which fits Minoa
Most of all Plato knew the name Minoa, but didn't mention it...

but you're entitled to your opinion, until someone finds an account of the Shuruppak or Minoan destruction in Egypt, with Solons lunch residue on it, its moot isn't it

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Marduk
At the end of the Uruk period there was an archaeologically attested river flood in Shuruppak. Polychrome pottery from a destruction level below the flood deposit has been dated to the Jemdet Nasr period (3100–2900 BC). that immediately preceded the Early Dynastic I period

There's no evidence the Egyptians knew about that or knew much about the history of other nations much before the Greeks took over.

(in the same respect as other countries before 600 BC really didn't know much about Egypt's history.)

Egypt and Mesopotamia had been trading since predynastic Egypt
I'm surprised you don't know about it

Oh, they knew about trade and there was lots of interchange of interesting parts of culture. But they didn't care about the history of the country (other than who the current kings were) any more than America as a whole cares about the history of Saudi Arabia. When they erected temples and made libraries, they recorded their own legends and religion and kings' lists -- not those of foreign tribes or countries.

a reply to: Marduk
I never claimed that the story of the destruction of Atlantis was in any way related to the biblical or Mesopotamian floods.

I am just pointing out that the Minoan civilization is the best candidate for the prototype of Plato's Atlantis. The destruction of Thera was a thousand years before Plato and it might as have been 9000 as far as he was concerned.
Plato's description of the destruction of the island clearly describes the events of an island volcano caldera collapse, complete with eaethquakes , tsunamis(floods) and pumice rafts(shoals of mud), caused by the , as Plato put it , the subsidence of the island( caldera collapse).
People fail to realise Thera was just another Aegean island, but was a towering mountain 2000 meters or more tall, that vanished, or as the ancients saw it , sank into the sea.
Also don't forget that the eruption was so big that no one within visual range of the eruption would have survived to pass on a story of a volcanic eruption, those far enough away would only have known of the earthquakes and floods(again tsunamis).
Sure there were other Greek cities that subsided due to earthquakes or were hit by tsunamis, but how many had a circular harbor with a central island? or how many had hot springs that were plumbed into public fountains, how any had a close relationship with Egypt/, or controlled trade across large portions of the med?.
And btw I do believe that there is a connection between Akkadians and the pre palatial to palatial transition in cretean society.
And lastly the term Minoan is a wholely modern moniker, and we have no idea what the society called itself.

people have made comparisons
of Atlantis
with the Hittites

there are quite a few
i picked this one

books.google.co.uk... n&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_urus7N_NAhVIXhoKHdNCAH0Q6AEIQzAI#v=onepage&q=hittites%20atlantis&f=false

because it mentions double headed clay eagles
the double headed eagle of Scottish freemasonry

www.gilberthouse.org...

it is claimed in the link above
that the origin of the symbol is much older

maybe the origin of Atlantis and freemasonry share a link

I cant be the only person that comes to this section of the forum and reads the first post, then scans for Harte, Byrd or Marduk to read their responses first? Then based off their opinion, decide if its worth reading any further?

Usually it saves alot of time, instead of reading the rest of the naval gazing that seems to be accepted in this forum.

There are only 2 references to Atlantis through out history. Both from the same person. Both have been posted in this thread a couple times yet people still carry one about links between Atlantis and everything else under the sun.

originally posted by: FanUpCutKid
I cant be the only person that comes to this section of the forum and reads the first post, then scans for Harte, Byrd or Marduk to read their responses first? Then based off their opinion, decide if its worth reading any further?

Well well WELL!
An intelligent poster!
Rare as hen's teeth.

Harte

originally posted by: damonjc
Yes, a lot of it is embellished storytelling, but where does the reality end and the storytelling begin? For instance, we know Gilgamesh was a real king, but was Enkidu a real person?

My point is, if we're comparing apples to apples, applying the same standards of interpretation to Genesis 1-3 as we are to the Epic of Gilgamesh, then just because the text says "and the evening and the morning were the X day," does that have to mean it's literal?

There is no sound reason to not believe the times are literal. It's too easy to promote a theory by adjusting the data, and I apply that to any such theory. People in ancient times weren't ignorant, and they knew the difference between a day and a year, or a thousand years. Plus, the Bible doesn't say time is meaningless, only that it doesn't affect God like it does us.

As for Gilgamesh, he's just one of many such characters, and not even the oldest. Manu, I think, holds that distinction. I still see no reason to assume that creation is supposed to be post-Flood.

originally posted by: damonjc
There are quite a few issues, not the least of which is that the 21st and 22nd dynasties overlap, rather than being sequential. That means that, prior to about 850 BCE, dates in ancient Egypt would need to be adjusted downwards by at least 150 years, potentially up to as much as 400 years.

What evidence is there for an overlap?

originally posted by: damonjc
According to Pharaohs and Kings, there are four main pillars of Egyptian chronology. Rohl deconstructs three of them, showing why they're not as reliable as conventional Egyptologists believe, but leaves the fourth (the dating of the sacking of Thebes by Sennacherib in 664 BCE) intact. My copy is unfortunately in storage right now, or I'd go into more detail.

Well, Egyptologists can be a stubborn lot! Anything that doesn't fit the accepted theories, they won't' even consider. Watched a Graham Hancock video, wherein he was supposed to debate one such fellow, and the man was dead set against considering any good evidence.

originally posted by: damonjc
Hancock has made an excellent case for *A* global flood, several thousand years before 2400 BCE. But apparently there was also one in roughly 2400 BCE as well. Just because Hancock is right doesn't automatically make Rohl wrong. Imho, they're both right.

Actually, he makes a strong case for at least three global floods - 15,000-14,000 years ago, 12,00-11,000 years ago, and 8,000-7,000 years ago. None of those are close to 2400BC, however. The Atlantis legends are set about 11,600 years back, which fits nicely in there. The last of those fits many timelines for the Flood of Noah, as well. Of course, there were likely many more localized floods, that would have been devastating to the areas affected, such as in the case of Thera, and many others.

originally posted by: damonjc
Yes, there are a lot of good candidates for Atlantis. I'm attempting to avoid discussing the where, so I can focus instead on the why.

Damon

The where is indeed debatable, but for the why, a global flood, from glacial melt, would do the trick nicely! There is a report, as well, of an Indian city that is said to have vanished in a similar fashion to Atlantis. With al of the ruins underwater, mostly unexplored or little explored, It's likely that there were several cities lost in these flood events. Fascinating stuff, in any case, no matter what theories we apply! It's clear there is a lot of knowledge we simply don't have, on our distant past. I love this sort of discussion! Been reading in Underworld for days now, and barely able to put it down, it's so intriguing. Hence, the response delay!

originally posted by: frenchfries
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Ha.. I see good point !

You mean where are the borders of Atlantis. (Britain the island).
And i mean the influence of Atlantis (the British empire).

That i talk about the influence is because as in with British empire its influence most have been enormous
because 'Atlantis' pops up in many many legends. Though under different names.

Not sure how you would connect Atlantis to Britain. Britain is still there. As for the different names, when you have a strong case for three global floods (dates listed above), if there were civilizations, it's likely several cities were lost at those times.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

The food of Noah wasn't that recent, by most reckoning. Several thousand years before that, as I recall. Definitely global, for that one, and there is a lot of evidence for global flooding. Hancock alone has made the case for that.

Erm... Where is this "evidence" of a global flood?

Please tell me its not from "answers in Genesis" or Creation ministries?

Did you actually read what I posted? You quoted it, but you seem to have missed the reference. Let's try this again, slowly. G-R-A-H-A-M H-A-N-C-O-C-K has offered such evidence, based upon sound geological and other evidence. 15,000-14,ooo years ago, 12,000-11,000 years ago, and 8,000-7,000 years ago, from massive and sudden glacial melt. Professor Cesare Emiliani has discussed the likelihood of ice dams, that would hold in the water to a certain point, before bursting, causing a sudden and catastrophic release. Professor John Shaw has shown that this is likely as well. There is also data from the Caribbean, showing three very abrupt steps in level, corresponding to those date estimates. Such a massive release of water would cause, due to the abrupt changes in pressure on the surface, earthquake and volcanic activity as well. The data is sound.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
Did you actually read what I posted? You quoted it, but you seem to have missed the reference. Let's try this again, slowly. G-R-A-H-A-M H-A-N-C-O-C-K has offered such evidence, based upon sound geological and other evidence.

Actually, he hasn't. He's rehashing others' ideas (which are wrong) and he doesn't know anything about geology.

15,000-14,ooo years ago, 12,000-11,000 years ago, and 8,000-7,000 years ago, from massive and sudden glacial melt.

There were a few big ice dam breaks (it was a cyclical thing) such as the one that produced the Scablands. But the melt was actually gradual, amounting to a few inches in some spots to a few feet over hundreds of years. He's wrong about the 12,000 years -- that's when the sea level rising slowed down. He missed the first one as well, but "sort of" got the third one.
www.giss.nasa.gov...

Professor Cesare Emiliani has discussed the likelihood of ice dams, that would hold in the water to a certain point, before bursting, causing a sudden and catastrophic release.

We know that happens, but the amount of water released doesn't cause a 20 foot rise in the ocean level...because there's not that much water in an ice lake behind an ice dam.

There is also data from the Caribbean, showing three very abrupt steps in level, corresponding to those date estimates. Such a massive release of water would cause, due to the abrupt changes in pressure on the surface, earthquake and volcanic activity as well. The data is sound.

Not "very abrupt", as you can see from the original data in the link.

a reply to: Byrd

Lol

Thanks byrd

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Marduk
At the end of the Uruk period there was an archaeologically attested river flood in Shuruppak. Polychrome pottery from a destruction level below the flood deposit has been dated to the Jemdet Nasr period (3100–2900 BC). that immediately preceded the Early Dynastic I period

There's no evidence the Egyptians knew about that or knew much about the history of other nations much before the Greeks took over.

(in the same respect as other countries before 600 BC really didn't know much about Egypt's history.)

Egypt and Mesopotamia had been trading since predynastic Egypt
I'm surprised you don't know about it

Oh, they knew about trade and there was lots of interchange of interesting parts of culture. But they didn't care about the history of the country (other than who the current kings were) any more than America as a whole cares about the history of Saudi Arabia. When they erected temples and made libraries, they recorded their own legends and religion and kings' lists -- not those of foreign tribes or countries.

I'm sorry Byrd, normally you make a lot of sense, this time you didn't. would you like me to list the amount of monuments in Egypt which record foreign affairs, or mention where the diplomatic language of Egypt originated around 2200BCE are you just going to accept defeat quietly

originally posted by: Byrd

Not "very abrupt", as you can see from the original data in the link.

Well Hancock fabricates evidence to order.
He introduced the world to shoreline data in Underworld and even then was highly selective
But here are the complete sets of shoreline data, in animation form
www.youtube.com...
hard to argue with pure science

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
The where is indeed debatable, but for the why, a global flood, from glacial melt, would do the trick nicely! There is a report, as well, of an Indian city that is said to have vanished in a similar fashion to Atlantis.

Lady, I would suggest to you that you look into these sorts of claims before parroting them.
Dwarka, the city you refer to, sank during the Medieval Period, for example.
Yes, the city itself might be quite old (has yet to be determined,) but it was flooded while Europe was Medieval. This fact is attested to by remains found in situ at the site.

Harte

originally posted by: Marduk

I'm sorry Byrd, normally you make a lot of sense, this time you didn't. would you like me to list the amount of monuments in Egypt which record foreign affairs, or mention where the diplomatic language of Egypt originated around 2200BCE are you just going to accept defeat quietly

Actually, do list the monuments in Egypt that record foreign history that the Egyptians did not participate in (and that would not be part of their documentation.) I would be interested in any that talk about history in the area of Israel and Palestine -- and not the history of pharaohs going up there, smiting people, and coming back and fibbing about some of their accomplishments (dear Ramesses II, for instance.)

(not sarcasm. If you know them, I would be quite interested.)

I am aware that client kings wrote about problems to the pharaohs and pharaohs (particularly Akhenaten) often ignored them. But part of the problem of learning early history is that everyone was interested in their own history and not the history of their neighbors -- at least, history that didn't involve marching in and whapping people with spears. Or big trade expeditions to bring back valuable things (which really isn't a history of a foreign land, merely a note that "we went to a distant place and they gave us goodies for these cheap beads")

a reply to: Byrd

Right, so the Egyptian scribes who wrote in Akkadian cuneiform,
They learned that from The Great God Osmosis, they weren't exposed to Akkadian culture in any way, certainly not exposed to the Mesopotamian method of learning to write cuneiform, by copying out stories...
Maybe it was a correspondence course,
Babel fish ?
Carrier pigeon
that was used to transmit that knowledge of a written language across two cultures which were trading with each other for hundreds of years, but yet, who apparently never really spoke to one another...

lol...



Seriously though, I don't really care, Atlantis is a fiction
I'm talking about a real place, a city state that ruled other city states that was engulfed by water around 3100BCE, the flood so sudden that even the King was washed away. With his son, the prince turning out to be the flood hero, The same flood which is exaggerated through ritualised story telling and later makes it into the bible as the book of Noah,
But no one seems interested in the facts here lol

a reply to: Byrd

The data is sound, and from peer-reviewed and respected scientists. That others disagree doesn't mean they are wrong. There a re a lot of questions in that field, especially when it comes to glaciation in the distant past. Theories on rate of glaciation, rate of melt, and the like, are quite varied. To state that one set of that data is wrong, and other sets are right, cannot be proven. The data he presents is as valid as the data that might contradict it.

There were some massively big breaks, and that is proven. There have been massive breaks in historical times as well, though not as massive as some of the ones he discusses. The more water behind those ice dams, the more serious the break will be.

When geologists themselves can't agree, you can't just dismiss the data he prefers, because you disagree with his ideas.