Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

a reply to: AceWombat04

Thank you for another exceptionally cogent response regarding the topic!

I wish I had your wisdom to simply speak my peace (piece) and rise above the fray!!!

I am particularly, in light of the hypocritcal responses of so many in this thread, in ultimate agreement with this phrase of yours:

As stated in another such topic, I lack the emotional and intellectual stamina to wade through these disingenuous, passive aggressive, politicized versions of what in a less polite, unadorned form would be seen as exactly what imo they are.

There is no authoritarianism more pernicious or dangerous than that clothed in ostensible compassion for the "ill."

That demonstrates, despite all the hue and cry about "helping" Trans* folks while they're being degraded and denied their Constitutional rights, just what nasty little "secret pee police" the advocates for these discriminatory laws can be.

Bravo!

a reply to: Gryphon66

This is a Case of PRE CRIME.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Gryphon66

This is a Case of PRE CRIME.

Yes. I know.

Too bad Trans* folks aren't rallying for the right to take their guns into the bathrooms ... I'm sure that would be a-ok.

a reply to: Boadicea

I don't see all these 'half truths and lies'. One source, that is used twice, is from a book by Kay Brown, someone I have never heard of.

Another is a change.org petition that has about 1/10th of the signatures on the change.org petition I signed so that ABC reinstates "The Family" so it doesn't end on a cliffhanger. There are a group of people that will send the results to the human rights campaign, it is not the human rights campaign that has made the petition.

There are just as many articles that dispute what Autogynephilic Transsexualism is, if it exists and if it is common.
It is, in fact, Used by the right wing to fuel transphobia.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: nullafides

I'll be upfront, and say that I am rather conflicted on the topic of gender dysphoria. A very dear friend suddenly announced at the age of thirty that he was gender dysphoric, and handled things in a traumatic fashion with regards to all those around him. Including his fiance. Given how this hit home to me in a very real, personal way...as we *were* very close.... I have to state that I am conflicted.

It sounds like your friend fits the normal selfish and even narcissistic pattern of the heterosexual autogynephilic men who declare their "true" transgender nature at a later age, often after marriage to a woman and even fathering children. Many "trans widows" tell the same basic story. As difficult and painful as it must have been for his fiancee, perhaps she's lucky it happened sooner rather than later.

I feel that those who are transgender deserve to feel at ease.

However, does their right to do so come at the cost of the ease of others?

More to the point, does their right to feel at ease take precedence over the safety of others? No.

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...


There is no pervert who will decide not to molest some one because "it is illegal to go in that bathroom, even if you live and dress like that sex."


This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

There is nothing stopping a pervert from dressing as the opposite sex and attempting to molest someone with or without this law..

It is unenforceable..unless you want Johnson checks at every bathroom door...

What penalty is fair for a average legit trans person who does use their bathroom of choice..not the worst case scenerio (that assuming he hurts someone is still illegal) pervert...

It will be far more shocking to have people who appear the opposite sex, but were born that sex, entering the bathroom..

This is a knee jerk , feel good reaction that will not stop one single act of rape nor molestation. It is a BS measure by republicans to "look tough on gays" to their evangelical base.


This is no different than the "hate crime " stuff..cold blooded murder is cold blooded murder no matter why you did it. There is no need to add imaginary stuff tho make us feel better. No one chose not to commit a crime because it would be a hate crime...

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.



That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

According to the only (admittedly flawed study) only about 20% of trans kids diagnosed, continue to live that way through adulthood.

When we have the tech to do a brain scan and confirm the diagnosis, I'm cool. But only basing it on a totally subjective psyc test is ridiculous, when concerning children...espeacially kids as young as 4...


IMHO all of these trans/gay type issues are do to mistakes in your brains wiring. Mistakes we can't even diagnose let alone fix and mistakes that are so fundamental to the human psyche that no amount of therapy or Jesus can fix..

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: nullafides

I'll be upfront, and say that I am rather conflicted on the topic of gender dysphoria. A very dear friend suddenly announced at the age of thirty that he was gender dysphoric, and handled things in a traumatic fashion with regards to all those around him. Including his fiance. Given how this hit home to me in a very real, personal way...as we *were* very close.... I have to state that I am conflicted.

It sounds like your friend fits the normal selfish and even narcissistic pattern of the heterosexual autogynephilic men who declare their "true" transgender nature at a later age, often after marriage to a woman and even fathering children. Many "trans widows" tell the same basic story. As difficult and painful as it must have been for his fiancee, perhaps she's lucky it happened sooner rather than later.

I feel that those who are transgender deserve to feel at ease.

However, does their right to do so come at the cost of the ease of others?

More to the point, does their right to feel at ease take precedence over the safety of others? No.

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...


There is no pervert who will decide not to molest some one because "it is illegal to go in that bathroom, even if you live and dress like that sex."


This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

There is nothing stopping a pervert from dressing as the opposite sex and attempting to molest someone with or without this law..

It is unenforceable..unless you want Johnson checks at every bathroom door...

What penalty is fair for a average legit trans person who does use their bathroom of choice..not the worst case scenerio (that assuming he hurts someone is still illegal) pervert...

It will be far more shocking to have people who appear the opposite sex, but were born that sex, entering the bathroom..

This is a knee jerk , feel good reaction that will not stop one single act of rape nor molestation. It is a BS measure by republicans to "look tough on gays" to their evangelical base.


This is no different than the "hate crime " stuff..cold blooded murder is cold blooded murder no matter why you did it. There is no need to add imaginary stuff tho make us feel better. No one chose not to commit a crime because it would be a hate crime...

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.



That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

According to the only (admittedly flawed study) only about 20% of trans kids diagnosed, continue to live that way through adulthood.

When we have the tech to do a brain scan and confirm the diagnosis, I'm cool. But only basing it on a totally subjective psyc test is ridiculous, when concerning children...espeacially kids as young as 4...


IMHO all of these trans/gay type issues are do to mistakes in your brains wiring. Mistakes we can't even diagnose let alone fix and mistakes that are so fundamental to the human psyche that no amount of therapy or Jesus can fix..

I don't know about mistakes.

I think there have been interesting studies on natures population control and homosexuality. Some are done with say rats. As you stuff more in cages they strangly form alliances for war and homosexuality rates change.

As far as transgender people go it's likely some kind of wiring is different or its just part of the human experience. Maybe a quantum entanglement issue who knows.

The thing I think some psychologists are realizing is all these "conditions" are largely social problems of trying to make every person learn and act the same.

Maybe we needed add people who didn't have their head in their work to alert the rest of us of danger etc. There are quite possibly Darwinian reasons for these disorders which in different social structures have completely different functional ability.

If we needed say ADD workers for some kind of job I guarantee that would become normal and we would be taking medicine to be able to perform the function the society is either needing or forcing.

Maybe schizophrenics were fine when they were allowed psychedelics and shaman roles etc.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Gryphon66

This is a Case of PRE CRIME.

Yes. I know.

Too bad Trans* folks aren't rallying for the right to take their guns into the bathrooms ... I'm sure that would be a-ok.

Oh no..they are only pro second amendment when it's conservative Christian white people...


They don't want guns in communities that are (according to them) out to get conservatives lol.

They are hypocrites from literally every angle I can think of..

They want freedom...except in who you marry, have sex with, get high, abortion and if you want to put up nonchristian monuments..by freedom they mean:

" freedom for tax dollars to only benifit them personally."


They are pro freedom of religion...as long as that religion is Jewish or Christian only...

Cares about the millions being stolen through social program fraud..doesn't care about the billions in corporate or defense contractor fraud..those are just the price of doing buisnes...

Conservatism is one big hypocracy...

Oh the dread, life is so difficult.... The Drama....Liberate Us Obama....

Why can't we just call a Fork a Fork and a Spoon a bloody Spoon anymore?

originally posted by: reldra
a reply to: Boadicea

I don't see all these 'half truths and lies'. One source, that is used twice, is from a book by Kay Brown, someone I have never heard of.

Well, fair enough... I hadn't heard of her either. I used her as a source because she herself is transsexual so she has personal experience; because she had studied the subject and has professional knowledge; because she both acknowledged and disputed the original premise; and because she explained AGP in terms I thought most people could understand even with the medical terminology.

Another poster happens to know her personally, and posted her response to my "screed" as she called it. You would probably like and agree with her response. It was early in the thread, probably the first or second page, if you'd like to go back and read it.

Another is a change.org petition that has about 1/10th of the signatures on the change.org petition I signed so that ABC reinstates "The Family" so it doesn't end on a cliffhanger. There are a group of people that will send the results to the human rights campaign, it is not the human rights campaign that has made the petition.

Okay.

There are just as many articles that dispute what Autogynephilic Transsexualism is, if it exists and if it is common.

Again, okay. As I noted, it is disputed. But I saw enough from self-identified AGPs -- with their own disputes and distinctions -- to know that there is something to it, and while the "experts" argue about it, those men continue to suffer to one extent or another.

It is, in fact, Used by the right wing to fuel transphobia.

I did not know that. Thank you for the link.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...

Yes, there is. Increased opportunity equals increased risk. Fewer deterrents equal increased opportunists.

This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

Half true. No, it does not make molestation legal, but it does legalize some previous sex offenses, such as flashing. I use that example because a friend told me about an experience in a ladies bathroom in which a man in women's clothing pulled up his skirt to fix his pantyhose... and there was his manhood in all its glory. He basically flashed everyone in that bathroom. In the interest of full disclosure, this was at a bar. Probably a gay bar. But in a similar situation in a girl's bathroom, it's not a crime now, so no, he won't even be charged.

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.

Exactly. Impulse and opportunity are a very dangerous combination.

That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

As do I. This defies everything I was taught about the best course of medical treatment is always the least invasive with the least negative side effects. We are making kids medically and chemically dependent for the rest of their lives. And for most, this is far more about what they've been taught or conditioned to believe a "real" boy or girl is, rather than an innate medical condition requiring treatment.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...

Yes, there is. Increased opportunity equals increased risk. Fewer deterrents equal increased opportunists.

This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

Half true. No, it does not make molestation legal, but it does legalize some previous sex offenses, such as flashing. I use that example because a friend told me about an experience in a ladies bathroom in which a man in women's clothing pulled up his skirt to fix his pantyhose... and there was his manhood in all its glory. He basically flashed everyone in that bathroom. In the interest of full disclosure, this was at a bar. Probably a gay bar. But in a similar situation in a girl's bathroom, it's not a crime now, so no, he won't even be charged.

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.

Exactly. Impulse and opportunity are a very dangerous combination.

That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

As do I. This defies everything I was taught about the best course of medical treatment is always the least invasive with the least negative side effects. We are making kids medically and chemically dependent for the rest of their lives. And for most, this is far more about what they've been taught or conditioned to believe a "real" boy or girl is, rather than an innate medical condition requiring treatment.

No it does not legalize flashing... When a kids mother reports some perv, the officer on the scent will be taking him to jail..guaranteed. Dressed like a woman or not.


There is no increased oppertunity, because there are no bathroom police. There is no one checking now, nor would they after this law. Their is no massive force to be hired to check genders at the door. If your dressed as a chic, no one will be messing with you in the fist place...

This law will not effect one pervert negatively, but will get a whole lotta trans people trying to take a leak a hard time..


Multiple negatives vs. only a BS feel good measure that doesn't actually do anything new...

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...

Yes, there is. Increased opportunity equals increased risk. Fewer deterrents equal increased opportunists.

This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

Half true. No, it does not make molestation legal, but it does legalize some previous sex offenses, such as flashing. I use that example because a friend told me about an experience in a ladies bathroom in which a man in women's clothing pulled up his skirt to fix his pantyhose... and there was his manhood in all its glory. He basically flashed everyone in that bathroom. In the interest of full disclosure, this was at a bar. Probably a gay bar. But in a similar situation in a girl's bathroom, it's not a crime now, so no, he won't even be charged.

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.

Exactly. Impulse and opportunity are a very dangerous combination.

That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

As do I. This defies everything I was taught about the best course of medical treatment is always the least invasive with the least negative side effects. We are making kids medically and chemically dependent for the rest of their lives. And for most, this is far more about what they've been taught or conditioned to believe a "real" boy or girl is, rather than an innate medical condition requiring treatment.

This is not accurate with crime pathology. Your attempting to use a form of common sense.

No more access does not mean more opportunity for abuse.

One thing you never respond to is this has been found on a decade. Where is this rate of increase? The states allowing this for a decade, thousands of bussinesses, hundreds of schools, the Olympics etc. Where are your data points from these actual areas?

Your making a serious leap. That men will start raping woman. The ones who are rapists are not stopped by bathrooms. Why don't you focus on college campuses, soriorites, and frats. That is where some alarming numbers exist.

Also take some self defense classes empower yourself. Get a concealed carry. Stop playing the victim.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Except there is no saftey risk....at least where the bathroom law is concerned...

Yes, there is. Increased opportunity equals increased risk. Fewer deterrents equal increased opportunists.

This law does not make molestation legal...if some one does this, they will not be found not guilty because of this law...

Half true. No, it does not make molestation legal, but it does legalize some previous sex offenses, such as flashing. I use that example because a friend told me about an experience in a ladies bathroom in which a man in women's clothing pulled up his skirt to fix his pantyhose... and there was his manhood in all its glory. He basically flashed everyone in that bathroom. In the interest of full disclosure, this was at a bar. Probably a gay bar. But in a similar situation in a girl's bathroom, it's not a crime now, so no, he won't even be charged.

Crimes are 90%+ impulse decisions with zero thought into the end result.. If not they wouldn't do it. Besides financial crimes, it is never profitable to do so.

Exactly. Impulse and opportunity are a very dangerous combination.

That said we have some really questionable things being done with kids diagnoses as trans...

I have a major problem with people diagnosing 4 year olds as trans and begining the social part of the swap.

As do I. This defies everything I was taught about the best course of medical treatment is always the least invasive with the least negative side effects. We are making kids medically and chemically dependent for the rest of their lives. And for most, this is far more about what they've been taught or conditioned to believe a "real" boy or girl is, rather than an innate medical condition requiring treatment.

No it does not legalize flashing... When a kids mother reports some perv, the officer on the scent will be taking him to jail..guaranteed. Dressed like a woman or not.


There is no increased oppertunity, because there are no bathroom police. There is no one checking now, nor would they after this law. Their is no massive force to be hired to check genders at the door. If your dressed as a chic, no one will be messing with you in the fist place...

This law will not effect one pervert negatively, but will get a whole lotta trans people trying to take a leak a hard time..


Multiple negatives vs. only a BS feel good measure that doesn't actually do anything new...

Exactly. But hey that logic.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: neo96

No one made up a new sex.

I'm rethinking the name of your new, special group ... I may have been focusing on the wrong aspects of breast fetishism ...

Automamaphiliac ... (no, that doesn't mean you love your mother ... ).

You should get t-shirts made.

I don't think having a personal preference is the same as a fetish. Just sayin'.

originally posted by: amberinsc
I do not think that a having a personal preference is the same thing as a fetish. Just sayin'.

I never thought so either -- and still don't. If it doesn't hurt anyone, no problem. I'm not sure why fetish has such a negative connotation.

If I understand correctly, clinically speaking the difference between a fetish and a paraphilia is the harm factor. So when others are harmed, a fetish becomes a paraphilia.

a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy
It's actually also around locker rooms showers and dorms where full nudity can occur.
This is definitely about privacy between the sexes.

a reply to: reldra

It is, in fact, Used by the right wing to fuel transphobia.

I'm not sure what I'm missing, but I didn't find anything from rightwing sites there. The linked article is about Anne Lawrence, a psychologist, transsexual, and self-identified autogynephile. I seriously doubt she's right wing. One of the screenshots posted I was able to trace back to a "radical feminist" website (they sure aren't rightwing), and another went back to an anti-trans website (they might be rightwing, but there was really nothing to reveal their political bent).

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy
It's actually also around locker rooms showers and dorms where full nudity can occur.
This is definitely about privacy between the sexes.

Nope. As far as college dorms nope.

It's gender inclusive as a choice. Pretty similar to coed dorms. Roommates are by birth sex or by a vetting process where the birth sex is made know if the body parts don't match.
Showers are single stall.

Pretty sure the frats and sororities are where most of the assualts in woman take place. Are you outspoken about those dangers?

originally posted by: amberinsc

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: neo96

No one made up a new sex.

I'm rethinking the name of your new, special group ... I may have been focusing on the wrong aspects of breast fetishism ...

Automamaphiliac ... (no, that doesn't mean you love your mother ... ).

You should get t-shirts made.

I don't think having a personal preference is the same as a fetish. Just sayin'.

That's the point in all of this you bring out? LOL.

Awesome.

Paraphilia doesn't equate to harm either ... that's paraphilic disorder.

Fetishes are, properly, an object or body part that don't typically arouse sexual interest, but that do in some.