Why is it so important that the Bible be true?

a reply to: TzarChasm

Sometimes it feels as though existing isn't just enough but too much.

Which is why I try be happy.

I know that, most likely, in the grand scheme of things our lives have about as much meaning as dryer lint.

We basically just body surf the infinite waves of entropy until one of them either kills us or enlightens us, the former being more likely than the latter, but when you get into cosmological BS like that its usually best to throw out the instruction manual, maybe.

Kallisti

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I have fed many people who had nothing to eat because we are the only ones that could do that. If there was a god and he was watching as people suffer and die of malnutrition then he isn't much of a god at all.

Secondly blaming disease on sin is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Some of the most God fearing people I know have died horrible deaths due to cancer.

And the bible wasn't specific that those miracles were only to be performed by the apostles of the time. It clearly stated that those who believe and follow in Christ would be able to lay hands on the sick and they would recover.

Open your eyes and stop defending the faults of a book that is proven not to be 100% true. I'm not saying that there aren't a few good things in the bible. Yes there are some nice lessons. But nothing makes it anymore factual than say the Vedas or buddism or even an atheist that decides to be a good person just for the sake of being a goood person.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: BoxFulder

God did not give cancer to any child or person.

Cancer is a result of the corruption of sin in the world as is all disease.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There you go Chester. This is from the "preserved word" KJV version which you know and love. God has just admitted that it is he that creates evil.
BOOM

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Sorry. I couldn't get to your post until now. I'll break down your post a bit

No problem.

So could god possibly be defined in a manner other than how the Qur'an is defined? Say the Christian one for instance? Or maybe a more intangible thing like the Buddhist one?

Well, the Qur'an pretty much describes Him as an omnipotent being that humans can't see or comprehend, as if He exists beyond of our dimension but can interact with it. Knowing that human eyes can only see small portions of the visible light spectrum, it makes sense to me. I also think about how earthworms probably can never comprehend metallurgy or particle physics, and Mankind's inability to understand God makes sense, as well.

While we agree with the basics of the Judeo-Christian version of God, we don't accept several characteristics mentioned in the Bible. For example, the Qur'an rejects one of the Bible's teachings by stating that God created nothing in His image. And we could never accept the account of the Prophet David calling on God for help, in which God came to help him while riding a Cherub and armed with a bow & arrow and lightning bolts. Or the story of the Prophet Jacob wrestling God. Our understanding of God is that He can do anything by simply saying "Be!".

Well if you want to look at as art, I'm not stopping you there. Art should be appreciated and studied. I'm more referring to the illogical elements like supernatural occurrences or god speaking to humans (when today we put those people in mental wards). What if they weren't true?

I guess those would count under the historical accounts that I mentioned. If they weren't true, it wouldn't affect me personally because none of those people can help me in my daily life or my own trials and tribulation so I treat it as food for thought lol (note: I probably shouldn't say that). But it would probably have at least some effect on others, especially people who live in the geographical areas where the events happened.

But often times the Qur'an mentions those accounts in relation to specific underlying issues. For example, it may tell a story about the Israelites, but in the context that people are often ungrateful for the blessings they're given. Or it will bring up a situation between Pharoah and Moses, while reminding the reader of the doom that awaits disbelievers or those who oppress others. So even then, there's usually some underlying advice or point to why it mentions those events (note: it's not like the Bible, which tells things in historical order and follows the progressions from the Israelites' ancestors down to the early Christian Apostles).

I'm not saying strange things aren't occurring or anything. My problem is with a book written by humans is that it is presupposing what those things that are occurring are without collecting any evidence to see if it is true. Then it repeats these apparent guesses as truths. It is illogical and untrustworthy to me.

I can see where you're coming from with the historical accounts so I can't debate that. But the majority of the Qur'an is giving advice, warnings, directions, and guidance. It's kind of hard to look at it as illogical if the advice makes sense to the reader.

Of the 114 Surahs/Revelations in the Qur'an, 1 basically tells us to tell disbelievers "unto you your beliefs, unto me mine". A 2nd strictly points out the believers who show up at the mosque but refuse small kindnesses to others. A 3rd tells us that after hardship comes ease, so to stay diligent and faithful even when times are easy. It's hard to say those are "illogical" even if you don't accept the religion as a whole.

Yes, but by that same token, one shouldn't let their emotions override their reason. If logic and reason is screaming one thing and your emotions are telling you another just because you want them to be true, that is dishonest to yourself and could potentially be self-destructive. Reality can only be denied for so long. It will do it's thing whether you believe in it or not.

I can agree with that. Though you also can't discount that most humans around the world accept that there's something greater to existence that what we can see. You may not agree with organized religions in general, but it's not a coincidence that so many people all over the world come to the conclusion that our understanding of the world is too limited and that there must be some kinds of Creators/God(s)/deities at work. Even many atheists believe in possible inter-dimensional beings, aliens, and the such, even though there's no proof of them either.

That's fair. I'm not faulting anyone on how they live their lives, but maybe it isn't necessary? Is that a possibility you've considered?

Yeah, that's literally why I follow a "live and let live" philosophy. I believe we all have different paths to walk in life. And I honestly don't think Islam is for everyone. Obviously I love it, but I can accept anyone who is kind to Nature and does no harm to others, even if they worship the Moon, a mystical flying squirrel or nothing at all.

Well again, I'm not trying to question advice or art here. Just the things that don't add up in the historical account.

Understandable. There's no way to know if most of the historical accounts are real. I take it as fact simply because I accept the Qur'an as fact. But it's really all just food for thought for me, since none of those accounts will directly affect my life anyway. After all, there's no way to prove many historical accounts even in widely accepted history books, either.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

The snake story in acts has already proven to be false since there were no venemous snakes in that region. Again more proof of the lies in the bible.

Here is my 2 cents. And forgive me for typing it on my phone and if it's been said somewhere before. I tried to read through all the pages but my lunch break is short.

I believe some of the issues the the OP posted comes from distorted translation. Unfortunately the Catholic Church has done a lot of manufacturing through the years to bend some stories. No where in the Bible does it talk about a global flood, that was an invention of the Catholic Church who needed a nursery story. In the Bible it only talks about an area flooding and all the animals of that area being taking on board the Ark. Thermodynamics alone would cause a lot of problems if you talk about every Animal on the planet in one boat. There is actually evidence of a prehistoric flood that helped shape the Mesopotamian sea and cities under water. There is also historical evidence to support exodus. Not just in archeological digs, but in some contemporary examples. The History channel actually did a show on the 10 pleagus and how they happened in modern times in Africa (I believe) . Basically there is a situation caused by a volcano that can reproduce every step in order. From locust to the first born dieing, this had to do with volcanic gasses settling where high born Egyptian children would sleep.

Lastly I belive that a lot of confusion comes from the unfortunat separation of the Bible and science. The two are not enemies but actually help each other. What we have to keep in mind is the Bible was meant to be a living text. Able to help people from the stone age to the rocket age. Take for instance Genesis. Does God give Moses a scientific break down of the big bang which no one of the day would understand? . Or does he give an allegorical sorry that once we have evolved to a point we can look at the story and see its not talking about 7 literal days, but rather 7 stages that actually line up with the current big bang model. Same with Adam and eve. Was it meant to be a literal 2 humans that were created from dust right there? I believe Adam and eve were simple the first of the species that God gave a soul to, or the breath of life.

We need the Bible to be true for the same reason someone needs any instruction manual to be true. If it's not then the end product will not be what it was meant to be. I do not believe that means everything must be taken literal. We have to remember that it was a text given to ancient people and meant to stay relevant and unchanged forever so and some point this we have to dig a little deeper than face value.

a reply to: Questionablesanity

Believe it or not, the Torah, which is the first 5 books and also Job came from the Chaldeans after Persia invaded and conquered Babylon the Israelites called it a divine revelation and adopted and adapted it to their religion. That's why Elohim used to mean gods now even though it's plural it's meaning is now just God.

Israel was not fully monotheistic until after Babylon when they started to worship Yahweh. The bible is a great book, but not at all honest.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
the reason people feel as you do concerning the Bible is because you see it with spiritual blindness. there are few criteria to understanding the Bible. 1) you must be a believer, 2) you must have the Holy Ghost, and 3) you must have faith in God's word.

Well I can already see a problem there. You have the cart way ahead of the horse on that one. You're telling me for the Bible to make sense I first have to Believe it then I'll understand it. Well, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to Believe something that doesn't make sense. You're basically telling me to lie to myself and believe in something that I don't believe to be true. I can't do that though because obviously I'll know if I'm lying to myself. You see the problem there???

But I guess what you're saying is the actual definition of Faith. To believe something for no logical reason.

How does that work exactly??? When you read something that doesn't makes sense and you therefor conclude it's false, how exactly do you just decide it's true and believe it???

I'm assuming you just didn't word that correctly or I'm not reading it correctly.

a reply to: mOjOm

Just forget about logic and reason and evidence. All you need is blind faith and then it will all make sense. And you will have the holy spirit which will give you special powers to find car keys and get great parking spots! But don't expect the holy spirit to heal your dying friend because that's not God's will.

a reply to: mOjOm

no actually the criteria is the horse.

No you only need to believe it is the words of God then read it and take it as truth.

Please show where god states a lie in his words. Book and chapter then show you proof it is a lie. I will consider it.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen Hebrews 11:1.

I have not read anything in the Bible that does not make sense.

Please book and chapter on what does not make sense to you so I can consider it.

a reply to: Joecanada11

just because they killed them off before modern times does not mean there never were any.

I know of whole towns where eastern diamond backs used to roam and now there are none. why?

because men chopped their heads off with a hoe so they could no longer propagate. And that only in the last 100 years. how much less in the last 1969 years.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: mOjOm

no actually the criteria is the horse.

No you only need to believe it is the words of God then read it and take it as truth.

Please show where god states a lie in his words. Book and chapter then show you proof it is a lie. I will consider it.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen Hebrews 11:1.

I have not read anything in the Bible that does not make sense.

Please book and chapter on what does not make sense to you so I can consider it.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27

There's two for you but wait there's more.

When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12

There's one more. But wait the next one is one of my favorites

Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25 NIV

And there you have it. God sent bears to kill 42 children because they made fun of someone. Not only does that not make sense. It's EVIL. SO LETS HEAR THE APOLOGETIC EXCUSE FOR THAT ONE.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Whosoever … hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken … He shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries. Leviticus 21:17-23 KJV

In this not only are people ostracized for being injured but also born with defect. Something they had no control over. That makes so much sense. Are you sure you are reading the same book Chester?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Well, if you decide something is true before you know what that something is then there is no evaluation of the information taking place. It's true because you've decided without knowing anything about it that it's true.

I'm not sure why anyone would do that, ever.

If I handed you a book, why would you decide the information in it is true without reading it??

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Discotech

So you would say that they are using a lie as a crutch to hide from the reality of the universe?

It is much the same as those who do insist so strongly that everything the government says is true.

It is the EXACT same thing, looks the same and feels the same, IN EVERY WAY.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

My aunt turned to scripture for the sole belief that she would be able to see her dead son and dead, husbands. Yes, that last one is plural. She's had two husbands die on her and the thought of heaven is what makes her happy. Also, she is a JW. One of the more messes up religions I've ever been witness too.

I guess it works for her, but I'd rather she dealt with what's happening here in her living life and not rely on the "afterlife".

originally posted by: rollanotherone
I guess it works for her, but I'd rather she dealt with what's happening here in her living life and not rely on the "afterlife".

Sounds like she's done dealing with her life here other than letting the clock run out. At least she's found a way to be happy while she waits for that final tick of the clock. That's better than many others have it out there.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
You can't fit two of every animal in the world in a boat. You can't repopulate a species of animal (human or otherwise) with just two of that species.

Have you ever considered that 'Noah and his ark' was not literally a man with a boat with two of each animal?
It struck me one day that 'Noah' could be 'knower' - as soon as there appears to be 'someone knowing something' there appears to be two.

It is about how the one seams to be two.

Reality is really one - reality is what is happening - what is happening is not happening to someone.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
While we agree with the basics of the Judeo-Christian version of God, we don't accept several characteristics mentioned in the Bible. For example, the Qur'an rejects one of the Bible's teachings by stating that God created nothing in His image. And we could never accept the account of the Prophet David calling on God for help, in which God came to help him while riding a Cherub and armed with a bow & arrow and lightning bolts. Or the story of the Prophet Jacob wrestling God. Our understanding of God is that He can do anything by simply saying "Be!".

Well that's what I'm getting at. What if you are wrong? Is this allowable?

I guess those would count under the historical accounts that I mentioned. If they weren't true, it wouldn't affect me personally because none of those people can help me in my daily life or my own trials and tribulation so I treat it as food for thought lol (note: I probably shouldn't say that). But it would probably have at least some effect on others, especially people who live in the geographical areas where the events happened.

This probably the most sensible thing I've read from a religious person concerning their faith.

But often times the Qur'an mentions those accounts in relation to specific underlying issues. For example, it may tell a story about the Israelites, but in the context that people are often ungrateful for the blessings they're given. Or it will bring up a situation between Pharoah and Moses, while reminding the reader of the doom that awaits disbelievers or those who oppress others. So even then, there's usually some underlying advice or point to why it mentions those events (note: it's not like the Bible, which tells things in historical order and follows the progressions from the Israelites' ancestors down to the early Christian Apostles).

In cases like that though, you could always interpret the stories as allegories and lessons instead of historical accounts then. The need for the stories to be true is lessened. Outside of the overarching idea of a deity in charge of everything. That is.

I can see where you're coming from with the historical accounts so I can't debate that. But the majority of the Qur'an is giving advice, warnings, directions, and guidance. It's kind of hard to look at it as illogical if the advice makes sense to the reader.

Good advice comes from many different sources. We don't necessarily have to build religions around all of it though.

I can agree with that. Though you also can't discount that most humans around the world accept that there's something greater to existence that what we can see. You may not agree with organized religions in general, but it's not a coincidence that so many people all over the world come to the conclusion that our understanding of the world is too limited and that there must be some kinds of Creators/God(s)/deities at work. Even many atheists believe in possible inter-dimensional beings, aliens, and the such, even though there's no proof of them either.

Well in formal logic that is known as a bandwagon fallacy. Just because many people believe something to be true, doesn't necessarily make it so. It certainly helps for a compelling case, but that isn't a definitive answer, but like I said, I'm not saying these things don't exist. I just don't like when people pretend to know what they are when we haven't properly studied them to make that call.

Understandable. There's no way to know if most of the historical accounts are real. I take it as fact simply because I accept the Qur'an as fact. But it's really all just food for thought for me, since none of those accounts will directly affect my life anyway. After all, there's no way to prove many historical accounts even in widely accepted history books, either.

Fair enough.

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Discotech

So you would say that they are using a lie as a crutch to hide from the reality of the universe?

It is much the same as those who do insist so strongly that everything the government says is true.

I haven't met anyone who says that.

It is the EXACT same thing, looks the same and feels the same, IN EVERY WAY.

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