Do we need religion or is it just a band-aid for our inability to express sadness?

a reply to: Asktheanimals

I should have clarified, to me Religion is the opposite of an intelligent, caring universe, there is nothing about it that is logical or comfortable. Religion isnt the same thing as believing in a caring universe. Hijacked or not. And I do know it was hijacked by apostate Paul.

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: Asktheanimals

I ask the above and had the thought that maybe what we really need is to have a National Day of Sadness.

Religion is indeed the emotional crutch for the very weak-minded.

I'm curious as to what your personal definition of "very weak-minded" is...?

If someone is a surgeon with a successful career, yet attends weekly services in a synagogue and sincerely believes... is she "very weak-minded?"

If someone owns their own plumbing/maintenance company and attends Catholic mass every Sunday and sincerely believes... is he "very weak-minded?"

If someone manages construction projects valued at tens of millions of dollars and attends Catholic mass every Sunday and believes... is he "very weak-minded?"

Just three quick examples of people I know. So, anyone of faith is "very-weak minded?"

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: argentus

The real impetus for writing this was over my 50 years in the US I have seen a huge drop in how people treat and feel about each other. We're jaded, even the young. We're losing something very basic to our emotional makeup and I'm not sure religion in any form can fix it.

Maybe we should call it the "digital divide" where we get an image, a voice of someone but not the real thing. Reality is replaced with simulations. There is NOTHING like the real thing and no digital substitute will fill that void.

I normally don't venture into the "religious" threads because they typically turn into the litter box in my multi-cat house when we miss a cleaning (and you find more urine soaked turds than you can imagine).... but I find you to be very sincere, which is why I entered this thread to begin with. I want to make that clear because I want you to know I'm being sincere as well.

That being said, I find it odd that you seem to be implying that religion as a whole is a bad thing in your OP, yet you seem to ignore or not see that as people in the United States move away from religion (over the past 50 years you describe), "things" are getting worse.

Digital Divide... you may be on to something there. I have about a gazillion stories supporting that theory but that is for another thread.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

Every day should be a holy day, every thing should be sanctified, all people should be blessed. Religion is what sets limits on such a task.

a reply to: eluryh22

I'm curious as to what your personal definition of "very weak-minded" is...? If someone is a surgeon with a successful career, yet attends weekly services in a synagogue and sincerely believes... is she "very weak-minded?" If someone owns their own plumbing/maintenance company and attends Catholic mass every Sunday and sincerely believes... is he "very weak-minded?" If someone manages construction projects valued at tens of millions of dollars and attends Catholic mass every Sunday and believes... is he "very weak-minded?" Just three quick examples of people I know. So, anyone of faith is "very-weak minded?"

Any one who chooses to base their life decisions on a violent,sadistic,Invisible magic sky daddy and willfully ignoring the absence of evidence for said sky daddy and insisting there's nothing wrong with this..Is my definition of weak minded. Oh no sorry that's my definition for the irrational beliefs of a delusional mental patient I used to work with.

How successful your friends are has no bearing on their overall emotional security and mental health about their beliefs. You have schizophrenics who can operate relatively well, does that negate the fact that they still harbor some delusional beliefs? Hell no, they're still crazier than ever... They can just manage to keep that under wraps out in public or in professional work related environments much like your friends I'm sure do. At least I hope they do.

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: eluryh22

I'm curious as to what your personal definition of "very weak-minded" is...? If someone is a surgeon with a successful career, yet attends weekly services in a synagogue and sincerely believes... is she "very weak-minded?" If someone owns their own plumbing/maintenance company and attends Catholic mass every Sunday and sincerely believes... is he "very weak-minded?" If someone manages construction projects valued at tens of millions of dollars and attends Catholic mass every Sunday and believes... is he "very weak-minded?" Just three quick examples of people I know. So, anyone of faith is "very-weak minded?"

Any one who chooses to base their life decisions on a violent,sadistic,Invisible magic sky daddy and willfully ignoring the absence of evidence for said sky daddy and insisting there's nothing wrong with this..Is my definition of weak minded. Oh no sorry that's my definition for the irrational beliefs of a delusional mental patient I used to work with.

How successful your friends are has no bearing on their overall emotional security and mental health about their beliefs. You have schizophrenics who can operate relatively well, does that negate the fact that they still harbor some delusional beliefs? Hell no, they're still crazier than ever... They can just manage to keep that under wraps out in public or in professional work related environments much like your friends I'm sure do. At least I hope they do.

So, if I'm understanding you, a structural engineer that is calculating loads that happens to be a person of faith simply looks down at his set of plans and says, "Eh, God will make it work!"....?

If these same successful people, that do their jobs and do them well, also are not shy about their faith.... what exactly are they "keeping under wraps?"

Admittedly I'm going out on a limb here, but your across-the-board insults combined with your broad assumptions and the vitriol you are spewing... I'm starting to think maybe you more closely resemble that "delusional mental patient" you used to work with than those you are talking about.

Religion is a disease that we pass on from generation to generation. Like Christmas.

a reply to: argentus

When I think of humankind I take the long historical view and remember that for countless tens of thousands of years our ancestors took what they needed from the immediate environment and crafted their articles themselves. Primitive societies offered complete acceptance for their group members no matter how strange. They accepted their tics and peccadillos and went about living, not subdividing ourselves in to ethnic and religious groups.

Our recent level of comfort and convenience is such a recent thing we have noidea how it will all turn out. It is radical change from who were and the speed of change is growing incrementally, to the point where only another machine could take I all in. Is this where were headed? Why not work to improve our conditions of life and respect those of our natural neighbors. Why not reconnect with how ancient people lived and work directly with nature to craft the necessities of life.

Were on a roller coaster, nobody knows how this ride ends.
No wonder people conjecture so much about the apocalypse.

Religion is not necessarily always a crutch or outlet for despair. I go to church and see people that are genuinely happy and filled with spirit.. and that's why they do it. They sing, they praise, they give themselves, all for the Lord and they're happy. Of course, when despair hits, they have the benefit of their faith and community to help pull them through, but to say that's the only reason they're there is ridiculous.

Some people are plenty happy living their lives, consuming and going through the motions until they die. Some people require a little more... their heart is empty until they find the higher meaning it's yearning for. THAT is what religion is to many people, and that's cool.

a reply to: eluryh22

So, if I'm understanding you, a structural engineer that is calculating loads that happens to be a person of faith simply looks down at his set of plans and says, "Eh, God will make it work!"....?

As I said previously if this person does base his/or her career decisions on the advise of a mythical character, that's considered delusional thinking and if he receives an answer back it's possible signs of hallucinations. If he doesn't and he's competent at what he does career wise, that's great. Just means he leaves his beliefs out of the workplace.

My question to you is; why does religion get a free pass for not being considered signs of mental deficiency? The signs are all there yet its left out? I assume you also don't classify it that way as well.

If these same successful people, that do their jobs and do them well, also are not shy about their faith.... what exactly are they "keeping under wraps?

Again if they're competent at their job, great. Does that mean they're completely sane about their beliefs? Absolutely not. Let me include another criteria, beliefs that are harmful( e.g emotionally,psychologically and abusive) to others than he/or she being open about their beliefs is obviously inappropriate in the workplace. If they''re not being harmful than your right, there's nothing to keep under wraps...

Admittedly I'm going out on a limb here, but your across-the-board insults combined with your broad assumptions and the vitriol you are spewing... I'm starting to think maybe you more closely resemble that "delusional mental patient" you used to work with than those you are talking about.

If what I've said has offended you than disregard everything I've said and move on. I don't see how responding back to me with this irrational paragraph about your dislike for me and my critical views on religious beliefs helps further any rational discourse on the topic at hand.

a reply to: Metallicus

That is why I threw this in.

Well this doesnt apply to all... better throw that disclaimer out there.

many great scientists are creationists aswell.

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

You wrote: As I said previously if this person does base his/or her career decisions on the advise of a mythical character, that's considered delusional thinking

What does "career decision" mean? The field that they enter? If someone want's to be a social worker because they feel drawn to help they are "delusional" if part of that calling is faith? Or are you (again) implying that someone of faith is unable to understand mathematics, physics, medicine, psychology, etc...?

==================

You wrote: My question to you is; why does religion get a free pass for not being considered signs of mental deficiency? The signs are all there yet its left out? I assume you also don't classify it that way as well.

Mental illness can manifest itself in all sorts of ways. If I remember correctly, the Son of Sam believed he was taking orders from a neighbor's barking dog. Yes, some people's mental illnesses manifest themselves in the realm of religious characters. So, based on your sentiments... that means every single person that attends services at a church, synagogue or mosque is mentally insane?

==================

You wrote: "Again if they're competent at their job, great. Does that mean they're completely sane about their beliefs? Absolutely not. Let me include another criteria, beliefs that are harmful( e.g emotionally,psychologically and abusive) to others than he/or she being open about their beliefs is obviously inappropriate in the workplace. If they''re not being harmful than your right, there's nothing to keep under wraps..."

So... beyond adding "ANOTHER criteria" and essentially assuming that those of faith subject those around them to emotional and physiological abuse, you agree with me... because from what I have seen (outside of religious fanatics that tend to make headlines), that simply isn't the case.

=================

I can assure you that nothing that you have written has offended me in any way. I would suggest that moving forward though, before you start declaring that entire groups of people are delusional and mental, you may want to speak with them first.

a reply to: eluryh22

What does "career decision" mean? The field that they enter? If someone want's to be a social worker because they feel drawn to help they are "delusional" if part of that calling is faith? Or are you (again) implying that someone of faith is unable to understand mathematics, physics, medicine, psychology, etc...?

I never stated nor implied that those who have religious beliefs are incapable of comprehending the requirements within their field. What I've stated is those who take career advice from a fictional character are delusional regardless of their intentions in the field they end up entering into.

Mental illness can manifest itself in all sorts of ways. If I remember correctly, the Son of Sam believed he was taking orders from a neighbor's barking dog. Yes, some people's mental illnesses manifest themselves in the realm of religious characters. So, based on your sentiments... that means every single person that attends services at a church, synagogue or mosque is mentally insane?

Most religions fit into the DSM definition of delusional disorders among them being persecutory( as many religions have an active or passive aggressive scapegoat(s) who tend to interfere in the lives of followers) Grandiose(All most all religions have the followers in a special relationship with the benevolent deity(s) even though there is a lack of evidence) My sentiments on the matter are irrelevant, logically speaking yes many of them are not mentally healthy because of their deluded beliefs. Not all.

I highly doubt though, that those who believe that harry potter or Gandalf and the books they're written in are real that you would still say they are completely mentally stable. They might be still functional to make competent workplace decisions,take care of themselves and functional overall but you can't tell me they're not even a little bit insane...

So... beyond adding "ANOTHER criteria" and essentially assuming that those of faith subject those around them to emotional and physiological abuse, you agree with me... because from what I have seen (outside of religious fanatics that tend to make headlines), that simply isn't the case.

Yes, if the people you know are not harming others with their beliefs in or outside their profession than I agree with you up to that point. Outside of that you and I have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

ETA

I can assure you that nothing that you have written has offended me in any way. I would suggest that moving forward though, before you start declaring that entire groups of people are delusional and mental, you may want to speak with them first.

I've had enough exposure to religious people of all backgrounds to come to this conclusion, you may have experienced different and may view what I've said as entirely ignorant because of that. I'm glad that what I've said hasn't offended you. It was never intended as an insult.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

I like your idea. A national compassion day maybe? An awareness of the suffering in your local community. Something like that.

Addressing your thread title I would say religion is wholly unnecessary. The positive components of religion such as charity and community can and are replicated through secular means.

a reply to: eluryh22

That being said, I find it odd that you seem to be implying that religion as a whole is a bad thing in your OP, yet you seem to ignore or not see that as people in the United States move away from religion (over the past 50 years you describe), "things" are getting worse.

Take things to a global context. It becomes apparent the health of a society is not dependent on a religious foundation.

Here's a quote from Sam Harris I sometimes reference:

According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005), the most atheistic societies—countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom—are actually the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality. Conversely, the fifty nations now ranked lowest by the UN in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality—belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction, societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God, each factor may enable the other, or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health. source

a reply to: redshift20

Some people require a little more... their heart is empty until they find the higher meaning it's yearning for. THAT is what religion is to many people, and that's cool.

Right, so a bandaid. An effective bandaid. A comforting bandaid. A bandaid, nonetheless.

I could possibly assuage my existential crisis with the belief that when I die I get to choose a super power and continue existing in a new world filled with super heroes and super villains. This could truly bring me comfort in life if I convinced myself it were true. Of course I think most would agree that without any supporting evidence it was merely a psychological crutch. A bandaid.

We do what we have to psychologically to exist in a world full of struggle. I get that.

a reply to: redshift20

How many people go to church for the social aspect, not the religous?

the answer is: A LOT

a reply to: eluryh22

Thank you. The title was a quick afterthought and not really the basis of the thread. I have both pros and cons with organized religion; it can do great things as well as awful in equal measure. But there is another more personal meaning to religion being akin to spirituality, something nearly all of us do share I believe.

Again the title was not really where I meant to go with this.

Someone who likes both Zelda and Columbo must be an interesting person.
Cheers,
ATA

"Excuse me sir, just one more question"

originally posted by: frostie
a reply to: redshift20

How many people go to church for the social aspect, not the religous?

the answer is: A LOT

That alone was a big reason I stopped going to church.
Too many people are there to be seen only.
The other reason was the hypocrisy I witnessed from so many who claimed to religious.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

"Religion™ is for folks afraid of Hell, 'Spirituality' is for folks who've already been..."- The Great Sioux Nation.

namaste

Edit: Shiva, The Great Buddha, Lao Tzu, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Yoda et al. were not following any religion™ these Cats were doing their 'own thing' and then some 'Tool' took their ideals and monetized them..

I do AGREE 100% that each Self, oh add Bob Marley to the list of 'Prophets' (Cats above), would have a better grasp of things if they got in touch with their very own Divinity, but these folks are looking outside of their Self to find "it", someone else's definition of what this state is...

'You ARE The Church..." Jesus The Chris†