Pilot says F35 CAN'T dogfight!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The J-31 isn't a "functioning" fighter. It's in testing, and it's not even for the Chinese military. They're planning on exporting it.

As for the F-35 hack, the data from the F-35 program was less than 1TB. The entire haul, from all the programs was 50TB.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The J-31 isn't a "functioning" fighter. It's in testing, and it's not even for the Chinese military. They're planning on exporting it.

As for the F-35 hack, the data from the F-35 program was less than 1TB. The entire haul, from all the programs was 50TB.

I guess the Chinese do not remember the Concordsky and the Paris Airshow. The Russian stole blueprints that were doctored by the CIA...the results were catastrophic and dramatic!

a reply to: cavtrooper7

well then it looks like times' they are a changin'

breakingdefense.com...

But Davis was unequivocal in his enthusiasm for the aircraft. “No airplane in the world will be able to touch this jet at Close Air Support,” he told reporters.

I understand he's always been a champion but as time goes on we will only hear more and more accounts like these. We've got quite a system on our hands boys and girls we've said it once it will be said again.....

deets are still classified. for you pundits, no, they didn't go up agains 9 F-16s, most likely VFMA F-18, but 4 to 9 odds ain't bad for a trial IOC run.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: CriticalStinker

You should at least get your numbers right. It's far below a trillion, and that amount was for something like a thousand total aircraft for 50 years.

Do you have stock in LM or something?

a reply to: D_Mason

I wasn't aware that I had to have some to defend the aircraft.

here's what I say to all that think its critical for the f35 to dog fight and to those that think dog fighting ability is critical in New aircraft.


remember that scene in the movie indiana jones where he enters the market/bazaar and there us some dude impressively swinging around a sword looking all intimidating and then Indy smirks and simply shoots the guy.

the f35 is indy.

a reply to: D_Mason

Do you have stock in Airbus Group, Dassault, Saab, or Boeing?

a reply to: C0bzz

i recommend boeing stock. I personally don't have any stocks but every friend that I recommended Boeing to that did buy their stocks are happy they did. bet they go up in a few months.

a reply to: Zaphod58

The plane outright stinks, you are very apologetic for the program. Almost like a Schill in your defense of it.

a reply to: D_Mason

So you know everything it can do? Or you're going by hit pieces like Bill Sweetman writes? Let me guess, anything good about it, is Lockheed PR, anything bad about it is factual.

I'm not apologetic for the program, I'm realistic. The F-35 was horribly mismanaged for years. It hasn't missed a major deadline since 2010, including IOC. It's gone from a mismanaged farce, to rapidly becoming a successful program, meeting its goals, and getting costs under control.

originally posted by: D_Mason
a reply to: Zaphod58

The plane outright stinks, you are very apologetic for the program. Almost like a Schill in your defense of it.

The F-16 would have never made it off the ground in a real engagement.

a reply to: D_Mason

Are you a Boeing shill?

originally posted by: Zaphod58
So an older, non-production standard goes up against one of the best dogfighters in the US inventory, at a range you're never likely to see, and had problems handling it, and this is a surprise because....

You know what else sucks in a dogfight? The F-15E.

The aircraft is behind schedule by about 7 years and it has so far not delivered on many of it's original selling points. To say it is over budget is an understatement, (as with most military procurement programs). They have tried to take one airframe and make do for all the services that actually have different environmental considerations in which to operate.. They have ended up with a complicated jack of all trades that does almost nothing well.. The only thing that makes this bird close to being deadly is it's electronics (still not fully functional due to helmet problems) and supposedly stealth characteristics.. for it can't out climb or out run most of the 4th gen threats even in today's world...

An argument that the F-35 Lightning II is “too big to cancel” is not a good enough reason to keep it going IMO. They had to scale back the purchases of the F-22 because of cost and now it looks like the F-35 (overseas customers are really back tracking) is going to suffer the same fate.

With our current military planners or political reasons for weapon systems I do hope we do not get into a major conflict with anyone above sand box technology. No joke I am serious.

The way they protect military and other projects is to spread various parts of something out to many states so their elected Reps have a vested interest in keeping the program alive.. Insuring a continuation and a positive vote if problems should arise... as in most things the government sticks it's dirty fingers into it all becomes a bureaucratic boondoggle..

By ANDREA DRUSCH | 2/16/14 9:14 PM EST
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is $163 billion over budget, seven years behind schedule, and will cost taxpayers about twice as much as sending a man to the moon. But according to Pentagon officials, the Lockheed Martin-built plane is light years ahead of its competition from other countries, and there’s no turning back on the project now.

In an interview with CBS's "60 Minutes" that aired Sunday night, the Pentagon’s chief weapons buyer, Frank Kendall, called the $400 billion purchase “acquisition malpractice” that strayed from the long-standing “fly-before-you-buy” rule.

Air Force Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, who is in charge of the program, said problems plaguing the planes included many simple mistakes, everything from wingtip lights that didn’t meet FAA standards to tires that couldn’t sustain the landing.

“Tires aren’t rocket science,” Bogdan said, bemoaning the cost of problems he didn’t think Lockheed Martin should be facing.

Read more: www.politico.com...

www.politico.com...

Of course the military industrial supporters are going to say this is the best bird money can buy... yet when it is actually used it does not deliver according to a heck of allot more than just one source. Australia has been extremely critical of the F-35.. I do not have a crystal ball but IMO this gold plated program is headed to the cancellation of some large percentage of the original order request... Just like the F-22... So we end-up with an aircraft that is lacking in more than one area and we cannot afford enough to make a difference anyway if a real shooting war starts outside some third world sand box.

I know how you feel about the F-35 and I do hope you are correct in many ways. 7 years and 160+ billion over budget tells me it is just another military procurement boondoggle that cost a fortune and will deliver what was originally promised in some future date if you just give them more money and time.

I would cancel that program just like they did the Army Comanche program after 4.6 billion dollars. The proposed half-million dollar helmet which has to be custom-made for each pilot...... that is supposed to give them a 360-degree view outside the plane (great idea if it worked, but at a 1/2 million per custom helmet maybe Mark one eye balls is something they should consider ?) via the cameras is so far a dream; err a nightmare for it is not working from what I have read.. Always tomorrow, always more money, always, "Well shucks we found another glitch".. Sorry so far not a fan of this FLUF until people outside the USA start singing it's praises after they fly the thing in real world conditions.

a reply to: 727Sky

So, the program reaches IOC, and you'd cancel it? Talk about screwing the warfighter. That means it would be at least another 10-15 years before we even have a prototype flying. Ten to fifteen years of F-15s and F-16s getting older, and in worse shape. And if you decide to wait for the 6th Gen to reach even the design stage, it's 20+ years before it's operational. That would put our front line fighters into B-52 age, in much much worse shape. We'd be lucky to have a fighter force at that point, and buying new ones would just delay any replacement that much more. And meanwhile, others would be leaving us far behind.

Yes, it's over budget, just like every other program, pretty much ever in recent times. Show me a recent program, even approaching this size that hasn't been. Hell, the KC-46 is already over a billion dollars (pre-tax) over the initial contract award, and that's only buying the first 18 aircraft. The first actual KC-46 hasn't even flown yet, and it's that far over the contract. There hasn't been anything on this scale, ever, in the history of military development.

The initial plan was to buy a total of 2,457 aircraft of all three types, which includes the 14 development aircraft, which would never be at the same standard as the production aircraft. We'll see that drop some, because they're trying to balance new programs with the money they have and the cuts they're required to make.

The helmet works fine. Older pilots don't use it as much, because they're used to just looking outside for their opponents, but that's normal. The younger pilots will use it more. The helmet that didn't work was scrapped, and the new one is working just fine.

a reply to: Zaphod58

The helmet works fine. Older pilots don't use it as much, because they're used to just looking outside for their opponents, but that's normal. The younger pilots will use it more. The helmet that didn't work was scrapped, and the new one is working just fine.

That is good news something I have not heard. AT 1/2 million a pop it would be nice if the new helmet works.

As far as threatening to cancel the program goes... It is amazing how fast stuff gets done when the man with the ax approaches. Again if they don't get their crap together the F-35 will end up cancelled far short of any proposed order just like the F-22.. If this bird can not out run, out turn, out climb the latest 4th gen aircraft what will it do against the latest 5th gen if and when it has to fight for it's life; oh yea they can't find or see it due to it's stealth capabilities... hope they are right and there are not any new satellite/radar breakthroughs for detecting our much vaulted stealth technology or we are screwed.

The good news there are some new air to air missiles with longer range, fire and forget capabilities, in the Que and the F-35 is supposed to be armed with them.. Hope they at least work as the P.R. and sales department says...

7 years and 163 billion over budget.. yep just like the other programs on the books... Late, over budget, but making progress; more time more money needed..

Am I the only one who thinks if I ran my business as they run their business I would not have a business....... or maybe just laugh all the way to the bank ?

a reply to: 727Sky

The aircraft is behind schedule by about 7 years and it has so far not delivered on many of it's original selling points.

No doubt the project was not managed properly in the past. However since the program was rebaselined in 2010 it has not missed any major targets.

"Novices in mathematics, science, or engineering are forever demanding infallible, universal, mechanical methods for solving problems." -J. R. Pierce

What's the most complicated thing you have helped create?

Most of the technical issues with the F-35 will be fixed. The engine already has a fix developed for it. An alternative helmet was funded, but this was cancelled due to significant progress with the original system. The aircraft can now fly in lightning. It can catch an arresting cable on a carrier. As the design is getting refined, the aircraft is actually getting lighter through development. Problems with damaging carrier decks due to hot exhaust are solved. These were all apparent huge issues with the F-35 program. Issues need time and money to solve.

What matters is what the F-35 is like when it is finally delivered and in full rate production.

The only thing that makes this bird close to being deadly is it's electronics (still not fully functional due to helmet problems) and supposedly stealth characteristics.. for it can't out climb or out run most of the 4th gen threats even in today's world...

Electronics and stealth are extremely important. When 4th generation aircraft like the F/A-18 and F-16 are loaded with external tanks, the performance drops considerably. The F-35 has similar performance to these aircraft when they are loaded down with an equivalent amount external stores.

Also:

Don’t Think the F-35 Can Fight? It Does in This Realistic War Game
The Joint Strike Fighter and Russia’s best warplane face off in a simulated battle

Observations
This of course, was a quick and dirty look at a possible future air combat scenario using the F-35 rather than exhaustive simulation and testing that goes on in military or defense industry labs. However ,it does throw up some interesting observations. In more than 15 runthroughs the kill ratio was 3:0 or 4:0 to the F-35s, with a couple of instances of 3:1.

medium.com...

yet when it is actually used it does not deliver according to a heck of allot more than just one source.

Obviously, given it's still under development.

Australia has been extremely critical of the F-35..

The Australian government and military have had consistent and unwavering support of the F-35.

I do not have a crystal ball but IMO this gold plated program is headed to the cancellation of some large percentage of the original order request... Just like the F-22... So we end-up with an aircraft that is lacking in more than one area and we cannot afford enough to make a difference anyway if a real shooting war starts outside some third world sand box.

Thousands of F-35s will be built, there is absolutely no indication that significant orders will be cut. The full-rate production F-35 is planned to cost about 85 million dollars in 2018 dollars. That's actually extremely good for a 5th generation fighter.

Sorry so far not a fan of this FLUF until people outside the USA start singing it's praises after they fly the thing in real world conditions.

With this attitude no new technology would ever be created ever.

Am I the only one who thinks if I ran my business as they run their business I would not have a business....... or maybe just laugh all the way to the bank ?

Developing bleeding edge fighter aircraft is extremely difficult, which is why programs like the F-35 tend to be significantly delayed with many problems during development. The programs are also so large that it might not be possible to privately fund them. If you expect 5th generation (or even 4.5 generation for that matter) to be developed, tested, with private money, and THEN sold to the government, then you're dreaming.

There a loads of reasons why the F-35 is why it is, it's best not to forget them.

a reply to: C0bzz

That was very well written and I appreciate the points you tried to make. Many have more faith in military procurement than I do and certainly go out of their way to justify the money spent on a military project. 1.65 trillion for the program (I might be wrong on that but I seem to have read that number) ... It does not matter what I think for the government is going to do what they want anyway.

I have seen people die because of government believing contractors and think tank mentality not to mention a secretary of defense (and others) that was so dumb he could have been on the payroll of the enemy with bonuses for a job well done.

So, I hope the F-35 lives up to it's billing and the program proceeds (for our pilots who will fly them and our ground forces who will depend upon them); it will be interesting during the next budget battle if the procurement program remains intact which I have serious doubts. The F-22 was the greatest thing ever built, if you believe the P.R yet out of the envisioned/wanted 750 the Airforce got what 187 and two Generals fired over their protest of such few numbers..? 187 to establish air superiority against other 5th gen aircraft in a real 1st world shooting war. We had all better hope the kill ratio is seriously in our favor.

a reply to: 727Sky

It's not supposed to be able to out dogfight a 4th gen. It's a bomb truck, designed to kill you before you see it. Which is exactly what it does. In every exercise they used it as it was designed to be used, it performed above expectations.

a reply to: D_Mason
Even I, someone who knows next to zero about those topics... I have to say what I read in a book about the F35-II capabilities, It´s outright scary, if you are to be the combatant. You probably wont see it coming until it´s to late and it wont even have to fire physical projectiles or A2A´s. I´m not talking about lasers.

I doubt Zaphod(or any other knowledgable person here) would confirm this but if I´m totally wrong and telling bull#, they may correct this. It´s out there in a certain book.

"...The actions and weapons depicted herein are based on actual technologies and war gaming strategies used by US military and civilian war planners..."

hundreds of tiny transmit/receive modules that blanketed the cricular faces of AESA antennas, electronically steering agile radar beams at alsmost the speed of light. Each tiny T/R modules acted like a small, individual radar, but beams combined, focusing their power on faraway targets. By performing thousands of computations per second, AESA computer adjusted each aircrafts´s radar signals, untill all four beams -two from the F-22s, two from the F-35s converged on a key control node...

and

The AESA radar beams compromised relatively moderate electromagnetic pulses, but powerful enough to briefly induce high currents in the refinery´s control system wiring and circuits. Many of the targeted electronic components literally fried, as if they´d been subjected to the EMP from a small nuclear weapon. Although fired by AESA radars, the pulses had the same impact on delicate electronic chips.

Of course, this is wrote fictional because it´s from a book written how the first hours of WW3 could be like.
It´s written by three guys, one of the is a former US space command director and former NSA counterterrorism adviser under Condoleezza Rice.

I´m not saying F35 is the ultimate military plane, but drop your mainstream bias and start to dig a little. You will be surprised. Open up your mind.

a reply to: 727Sky

All the stealth platforms have been slashed due to cost, which people don't understand. The media reports that each aircraft costs $XXX/plane, and people freak out, not understanding that if you buy 400 of them, it will drop to $XX/plane. In the case of the F-22, it was both cost, and Congress believing everything that a couple of generals that now work in the Lockheed system somewhere, being extremely well paid. When they heard what it could do, the question of "Well if it's so much better than everything that will fly for the next 20 years, why do we need so many of them?" So it was cut, instead of looking into what it could really do, and buying based on that.