Freddie Gray was just a thug?

a reply to: PeachesNCream
That's it right there, thank you for finding the words I couldn't.

Did he deserve to die? No way.

Was he murdered? No.

He died due to negligence.

The same people are still responsible and need to be held accountable.

Also, once again, the highest praise to those good people of Baltimore that rose above the hate and stereotypes and showed the world the power of honor.

originally posted by: rickymouseYou can't let criminals get away with crime or they might be infringing on your rights the next time.

Then why are you defending the actions of the police in this case?

You don't have to be a thug to be beaten by the police.
All you have to do is question them or defy their au-tho-i-tay.

I am not sure what happened to this pig, but he deserves serious prison time, not running around armed playing tough-guy, woman beater.

Occasionally you get people with "pre-existing" conditions, such as this drunk girl. I think she had a pre-existing migraine and tooth aches.

(starts at 1:22)caution bloody, brutal and disgusting.

originally posted by: Awolscout

originally posted by: rickymouseYou can't let criminals get away with crime or they might be infringing on your rights the next time.

Then why are you defending the actions of the police in this case?

I am saying the police need to take appropriate action to arrest people. They aren't limited to just asking the person to please come with them. Resisting arrest means you can be tackled. In this particular case though, the guy sustaining a back injury and being ignored means the officers need to be suspended until things are reviewed and once reviewed appropriate action if justified should be brought against the police found to have caused this. The cops are not liable if the guy hurt himself in the van. They do not have to secure every prisoner. He must have been doing something in the back if they stopped and shackled his legs, that just doesn't happen for no reason.

We do not know what happened when they stopped for that shackling either, he may have been treated excessively rough. I will leave this up to the legal system to determine, I can't judge without evidence that is applicable.

I actually trust in the legal system, if anything I think lawyers screw things up a lot. If a kid is causing trouble when they are young, they don't be needing to lawyer up and get away with anything. If they are taught that crime doesn't pay when young, then they might become good honest citizens. When nothing happens, the kids get the inkling that they can get away with more.

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: Awolscout

originally posted by: rickymouseYou can't let criminals get away with crime or they might be infringing on your rights the next time.

Then why are you defending the actions of the police in this case?

I am saying the police need to take appropriate action to arrest people. They aren't limited to just asking the person to please come with them. Resisting arrest means you can be tackled. In this particular case though, the guy sustaining a back injury and being ignored means the officers need to be suspended until things are reviewed and once reviewed appropriate action if justified should be brought against the police found to have caused this. The cops are not liable if the guy hurt himself in the van. They do not have to secure every prisoner. He must have been doing something in the back if they stopped and shackled his legs, that just doesn't happen for no reason.

We do not know what happened when they stopped for that shackling either, he may have been treated excessively rough. I will leave this up to the legal system to determine, I can't judge without evidence that is applicable.

I actually trust in the legal system, if anything I think lawyers screw things up a lot. If a kid is causing trouble when they are young, they don't be needing to lawyer up and get away with anything. If they are taught that crime doesn't pay when young, then they might become good honest citizens. When nothing happens, the kids get the inkling that they can get away with more.

Well in Texas the cops have to secure prisoners in a van are you sure about what you said? The reason is exactly because of this or worse a methed up nutbar who goes beserker and hurts himself and sues the force or hurts an officer. It is pretty clear to me there were quite a few procedural errors here. I have two friends in law enforcement from a judo and bjj club who both think the cops will be suspended because they didn't follow protocol.
As far as murder there is certainly no proof. Its more likely negligence.

For the people spouting so much hate for a thug well guess what we are all responsible for creating the thug culture. When's the last time any politician did anything for the poor or we held them responsible for the ingrained racism in the socioeconomic climate in the US? We let them do it, just hand out money to get votes never mind creating educational and job training pathways. Why isn't community college free in those areas (or anywhere for that matter). Why when people get jobs or go back to school do they take away benefits? Shouldn't we encourage people to go back to school and have jobs? Its easy to sit in an ivory tower and cast stones on the thugs but when your parents either are working 3 $9 hr jobs or much worse doing drugs there is nobody to raise the kids. Some states even offer more in benefits than you could make earning up to $15hr.

Its not only a racism issue its classism while I don't think we are all equal or need to all earn the same money, there should be a chance to. If you study urban anthropology its very clear that its a feedback loop of misery in poverty stricken areas of the US.

Police are cautious of career criminals like our buddy Freddy. They are not as unpredictable as a punk 'gangsta' with a gun but they are still unpredictable and can kill or maim a police officer in attempts to escape justice. The average citizen does not deal with such, usually, but police deal mainly with nothing but sociopaths so their experiences with the dregs of humanity influence their treatment of such.

In the video, Freddy Gray appeared to be unable to walk when he was being placed in the van. In my opinion, the police tactic of kneeling on someone's upper back to restrain them is at fault. This maneuver can be fatal and has been in a number of cases. If a prisoner is so violent as to require restraint, another method of forcing compliance should be employed that does not crush vertebrae or airways. Tazing has its downside also but may be preferable to a 200+# police officer kneeling on the upper back of a skinny doper trying to weasel out of a bust.

Freddie Grey WAS just a thug. But that by no stretch means he deserved to die.

There are sadly groups of police officers who abuse power, and that needs to change. All too often, police brutality is handed out, and the receiving end is a career criminal. It becomes easy to dismiss the dead thug as "just a thug" because of their past actions, but unless the killing is done because the person present a clear and imminent threat to the police or the public, there should be charges.

I won't pretend to know what happened to Mr Grey. The answers will come in time, but I have a feeling that without a camera in the paddywagon, the police will be able to spin the narrative they're currently constructing.

CNN is running a piece that attempts to justify Gray's drug dealing as necessary to support his family.

Pathetic efforts

originally posted by: Helious
Greetings ATS,

I have seen overwhelmingly not only here on ATS but on other formats as well the opinion that Freddie Gray was just a thug, career criminal and that his actions brought about his death. I can say without doubt that I sympathize with those sentiments because Freddie Gray was not a person I would associate with under any circumstances, not a person I would want around my children and not even what I would describe as a productive member of society.

With that said, Freddie Gray was at least one thing that is indisputable........ An American citizen. Freddie Gray was hunted down and cornered like an animal because he made suspicious eye contact with police, something that IS NOT a crime. It has been openly admitted that not only was he denied medical treatment on site when asked for, they couldn't even be bothered to strap him in as policy mandates KNOWING that he is in distress and injured. So many rights were violated that day, it is very hard to pick the most egregious.

Freddie Gray is not a likable person and neither are the rioters that are looting, destroying and perpetrating violence in Baltimore right now. Dislike the acts, the mentality and the people directly involved all you want because you are justified in despising it but what I beg you not to do is overlook how an American citizens rights were violated in broad daylight without probable cause that resulted in their death.

This is only about black and white because they want it to be. If they get away with this, it could be any of us, in the suburbs, anywhere. It's not about black or white. It's about justice, about a militarized police force that every day does more harm than good. It's about liberty.

I'm asking that you separate the unlawful, disgusting acts in Baltimore going on right now with the incident that brought them to bear. I know it's not easy and I know the complications with doing so but only when you understand that all citizens of this country deserve the same respect because the Constitution does not grant special privileges for skin color or even for repeat offenders of law as long as any past transgressions have been answered for will you fully understand why this was so unjust.

America, what happened was wrong.

Well of course he was a thug and a criminal and his poor choices contributed significantly to the situation he found himself in.

However, even thugs and criminals rate due process.

a reply to: Snarl

He was always gonna be a criminal.

How do you know this for certain?

I was once just like him and turned my life around and am a very productive member of society. In fact, I have helped turn other people's lives around too.

My point is that even though many people in his shoes don't get the chance to turn their life around, or just don't want to, but people can change.

I see an overwhelming trend of members automatically assuming that anyone with a criminal record will never change and is a horrible person who does not deserve to live and their deaths somehow helped make the world better.

This helps justify their hate and bias.

a reply to: Helious

Yea well calling him a thug is the new N word.....

originally posted by: Snarl
No. I will not see it your way.

And you know I love you like a brother.

He was a criminal. He was always gonna be a criminal. And, his anti-social behavior caused me to have utterly zero sympathy for him.

Do I believe he should have been 'disposed of' by the State. No ... not in that manner. They could have put his sorry ass in a rowboat and towed him two hundred miles off-shore. I'd have been good with that.

Well if that's the case they better buy a lot of boats...

OP...I AGREE WITH YOU 100%

I truly find the overwhelming amount of threads regarding his history a bit crazy. People pointing at past events and saying since he was a criminal he deserved to be murdered by the police (me and logic are both asking ourselves what the F??)
I just don't get that mentality. If we're going to be judging everybody for their past there is really no hope for change...
Plus it's easy to sit at home and bang on the keyboard like a true internet warrior yet I bet...and follow me here, if a family member of these Gray-historians would get the raw deal the same way he did , they'd go insane, scream injustice and go to war with the police.
MAYBE they're just scared though....and not yet willing to admit that the police really do have absolute power over us. As we've seen in numerous cases in these past few years, cops CAN kill a person and get away with it. It's been happening more frequently too...just imagine the reality, where the police can actually take your life without having to answer to the higher ups. They just lose their job, at the very most..this thought is scary as hell so up to a point I can understand why a person would close their eyes to such cruel reality. That's why it's easier for them to pin something bad on the victim instead of tackling the actual problem. Hence we always get the "OMG HE BROKE THE LAW IN 1999!!!1111" story.
It's called denial and helps people live in their pretty bubbles.

All it takes for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing...

I agree. I think the the looting, beating up white people (I don't believe any black people were beaten up during the riots but I could be wrong), and cutting fire hoses is stupid (especially in an age of police militarization), but their anger is totally justified.

Police Brutality is a huge issue in America, especially for black people since they're more likely to be targeted by police than other races due to racial profiling (a practice usually justified by disproportionate crime rates).

originally posted by: Xtrozero
So the story gets better...

It seems he had a previous spinal injury that he was awarded money from, another person in the wagon is saying that he was throwing himself against a steel beam, this is rather interesting in it seems he had won a settlement in the past and maybe was looking for another.

It would be rather ironic if this whole story ended up being a case where a guy tried to injure himself and ended up killing himself....

Do you really believe this guy was throwing himself against a steel beam to the point of breaking his spine ?...

originally posted by: Mandroid7
You don't have to be a thug to be beaten by the police.
All you have to do is question them or defy their au-tho-i-tay.

I am not sure what happened to this pig, but he deserves serious prison time, not running around armed playing tough-guy, woman beater.

Occasionally you get people with "pre-existing" conditions, such as this drunk girl. I think she had a pre-existing migraine and tooth aches.

(starts at 1:22)caution bloody, brutal and disgusting.

Wow that was brutal.....this is why we cannot blindly believe the police,in the case you have posted here this woman was not attacking the officers as claimed in the police report and the police clearly and intentionally hurt her with malice,they made sure she could not break the fall with her hands and pummeled her face first into the ground and broke 4 bones in her face....

People keep saying that Freddy was a crook and a thug,i just do not see how that matters,he was a person and has rights to due process which he clearly did not receive...furthermore the police have been caught lying so many times it is not hard to believe they will lie again .....this whole situation is one big cluster#

a reply to: Helious

The mentality division in America that make people see themselves as different from each others is overwhelming, Grey was a thug, he was different, so he died, he asked for it and he obviously deserved.

People forget that we are all humans after all.

What crime Grey committed that terrible day that he died from devastating injuries while under police custody, yeah, the thug ran

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
Do you really believe this guy was throwing himself against a steel beam to the point of breaking his spine ?...

I believe people would do that... yes, but I also believe he could have been beaten up on a stop, and it seems there was one not reported... I guess we will see..., but yes a person would and has done that to themselves.

Regardless, innocent before proven guilty. In my opinion he was murdered by criminal cops, it's obvious the Baltimore police department is disconnected. They are responsible when they have someone in their custody but have shown no remorse, I hope there is a federal investigation. I bet many will resign and indicted, they will either pay now or later. The people responsible are cowards, they are letting the city and the department take the fall. When they said it was self inflicted or it happened in the van, the van would have flipped! It doesn't add up, I have no confidence in Baltimore.

Nice photo, a hero of the black revolution caught cutting a fire hose..