Cut and Paste arguements an ATS epidemic

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: chr0naut

Sure but that's still doesn't make sense in the argument to me. Reason is not only based on human expirence is what I am saying. Something being "reasonable" is not the same as the mind function reason. Reason would be understanding the data the doesn't make sense based on expirence is what I have been saying. If you didn't have reason you would never come up with the thought experiment or understand the data. You would assume like animals it was magic. Reason tunes your expirence and allow you to make predictions other wise we would be scared animals not capable of understanding. Logic changes with study and expirence reason is the processor that computes all of it.

The whole "cat" bit is a metaphor, attempting to describe something (the mathematics) that just is. This case perfectly illustrates the issue with metaphors and reasoning. It can lead to false assumptions. With the mathematics, there is less room for error.

The conclusion was not drawn from reason but from observation.

Observation is the first step in the scientific method. The next step is to form hypotheses from those observations. Subsequently, one must test the hypotheses through experimentation. This then leads to further observation, hypothesis and experimentation.

Reason is used in hypothesizing and experimentation, absolutely, but it is not the only leg upon which science stands.

a reply to: chr0naut
And I get that. It was a response to another physicist. What I don't get is how you would make any sense of your observations without it. I don't understand how you would arrange the data or logic to make any sense of your observations. There is no scientific method without reason which is how the empiricist came to understand and create the method.

I don't believe science could stand at all without it.

I also want to say I never said data wasn't important. Its just that you can't interpret it without mental function. Simply doing math is logic which is part of reason. Interpreting math you are looking at is reason. In quantum mechanics it is even more important to understand and interpret data.

a reply to: luthier

How could I view it as an attack when it was one of my main points? Inevitably, we see the topic a bit differently though. The main reason why it is difficult is because it is exploratory and theoretical science. We also have a focus on applying these things to fields that are normally not related. Something that is difficult to communicate even internally among "experts."

I try to make it a point to avoid actual math, etc. on boards like this to assist in what I view as a never-ending process of growth. If I can only explain it using math and technicalities, that indicates to me that I don't understand what I am speaking about well enough to simplify it more than anything else.

That said, I don't view technical, social, or holistic to be mutually exclusive. Since I adopted the "simple genius" approach (nearly two decades ago.. yikes) I find that each has their place in the other.

When I say the word "house," we probably envision quite different images. When we extrapolate that, the differences can be major. All are indicative of a glimpse into the totality of the human experience, without discarding the individual. And I find that thrilling.

I also find it is too easy for someone to feel alienated when the discussion goes a certain direction. I think that is a shame, because that individual may very well have some fantastic insight that is simply packaged a bit differently than normally accepted.

I believe we all have little pieces of the puzzle, and instead of trashing the ones that are inevitably different, we can get a better view of the big picture by linking together.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Very well said. I understand and respect that. I think we agree more than not. I said in the op data and evidence is important. I was more calling out to people who claim to be experts and don't explain data and regurgitate fragments. Any discussion on a conspiracy message board IMO should be first considers philosophy. Or you should post on a forum of piers on a science forum. Not tear apart people who may no less or not understand the data. Or worse not understand the data and just spout off other peoples work that may or may not be relevant. It seems to make some people feel good to insult others who don't truly grasp the language of math on an advanced level on casual message boards.

The other problem is the rigid mind that believes since one result is possible it is the only way. When in reality its not.

Not to be contradictory but, the metaphore I use is the famous philosophical example of the man chained facing a wall in a cave with people dancing around the fire. He comes to believe the shadows on the wall are reality until he escapes from the cave and sees the real world. What if that same guy smashes his captor with a brass goblet would he believe the goblet was weapon and not a cup? It worked as weapon. Then what if he digs a hole to find roots for food is it a shovel and a weapon, and so on until one day by chance it rains and he notices the puddles gathering water and realizes through reason and deduction the cup can also hold water.

I was more talking about say someone who spouts off statistics cherry picked for an argument or tries to overwhelm a layperson with technical data

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: chr0naut
And I get that. It was a response to another physicist. What I don't get is how you would make any sense of your observations without it. I don't understand how you would arrange the data or logic to make any sense of your observations. There is no scientific method without reason which is how the empiricist came to understand and create the method.

I don't believe science could stand at all without it.

I also want to say I never said data wasn't important. Its just that you can't interpret it without mental function. Simply doing math is logic which is part of reason. Interpreting math you are looking at is reason. In quantum mechanics it is even more important to understand and interpret data.

Perhaps I could illustrate by taking the inverse case, that of Plato's ideas of the physical world. They were predominantly arrived at by reason and hypothesis, unrestrained by experimental testing or particularly rigorous observation.

Even Newton had to struggle against the "reasoned" paradigms of Plato to be accepted by the scientific community at the time.

a reply to: chr0naut

I know what you are saying. Newton though was part of the empiricists who valued reason highly. He and Locke were a major part of the Enlightenment movement and there is a steady chain of philosophical evolution, they valued classical thinking but even by Descartes were moving toward methodology. I don't think Newton wrestled very long with any reason problems. The scientific method is not an opposition to reason it is simply a tool to examine and make predictions with accuracy which is what empiricism is all about. I am not the scientist in my family I am just a musician/guitar maker with a pretty good understanding of acoustics as I am a part time recording engineer.

You can't only have reason I get that, but without it how would you interpret anything. Logic changes as you discover things through observation and reason is how you make a judgement of your observations and logic.

a reply to: luthier
There is an element on this planet that does not want enlightened people therefore they will do anything they can to disrupt that flow you would have at least 25% of the posters on this site and all other conspiracy sites being used to upset the discussions and hide various threads this is how you know you are talking the truth when they attack what you say.

Think about why the education system is so poor or the reason they add poison into the drinking water or the heavy gases that are emitted from the cars all of these are to retard our brains. now if the human race was free these things would not be happening or are there more sinister reasons why the population is so high.

a reply to: chr0naut

Newtons work was apparently hidden for 200 years as he proved the catholic church added in 5 books to the bible

a reply to: jinni73

Its not impossible but I usually chalk it more up to chaotic greed. We need to get rid of a poison (fluoride) or byproduct of a process cheaply and find another alleged use for it. People have tries to make sinister plans there is a record of that but, the bigger the beast the more out of control it gets so a master plan seems unlikely to me (at least one that would be effective) unless it simple like divide and conquer. Kind of like how the last few US elections were almost too close to call. With libs and conservatives vehemently arguing about anything and everything it easier to do the Cincinnati shuffle.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

If you noticed I specifically used the oft-bashed sites as examples of causing thread drift. I was not defending nor using them. If you look at my negligible posting history I'm a lurker mostly. I was making an observation.

As for Wiki not having a bias.. well lets not have a thread drift.

a reply to: Zyphyr

a reply to: Zyphyr

originally posted by: jinni73
a reply to: chr0naut

Newtons work was apparently hidden for 200 years as he proved the catholic church added in 5 books to the bible

If such were the case, it would mean it was suppressed until the 1920's.

originally posted by: jinni73
a reply to: chr0naut

Newtons work was apparently hidden for 200 years as he proved the catholic church added in 5 books to the bible

At Newton's death in 1727, the Royal Society sent a Dr Thomas Pellet to review, publish and sell the private papers from the estate. Dr Pellet discovered that most of Newtons works were either alchemical or theological (and highly unconventional at that) rather than scientific and deemed them "not fit to be printed", lest they blemish the image of the great man.

It was not the Catholic Church that suppressed Newtons writings, but was the scientific community.

Anyway, they aren't suppressed any longer and many are available online on topics of alchemy and theology.

I have reviewed them and concur that Dr Pellet did the right thing. They are historically interesting but mostly, scientifically useless.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: jinni73
a reply to: chr0naut

Newtons work was apparently hidden for 200 years as he proved the catholic church added in 5 books to the bible

If such were the case, it would mean it was suppressed until the 1920's.

1936 was the year the hidden papers were released they were bought by john Keynes who then tried to decipher them as they were written in code
www.pbs.org...

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: jinni73

Its not impossible but I usually chalk it more up to chaotic greed. We need to get rid of a poison (fluoride) or byproduct of a process cheaply and find another alleged use for it. People have tries to make sinister plans there is a record of that but, the bigger the beast the more out of control it gets so a master plan seems unlikely to me (at least one that would be effective) unless it simple like divide and conquer. Kind of like how the last few US elections were almost too close to call. With libs and conservatives vehemently arguing about anything and everything it easier to do the Cincinnati shuffle.

Divide and conquer is exactly what is going on just look at the vaccines they are shoving into us, a base of peanut oil with methyl mercury or aluminium as a preservative there have been quite a few people killed over whistleblowing the vaccine figures check this testimony from a queensland cop who is just whistleblowing with the fact that judges are sentencing parents for shaking baby syndrome when it is the vaccines

Being someone who recently joined ATS, at first I expected the community to live up to what it advertised: civilized discussion about unorthodox topics.

After posting in less than ten different threads, I was caught up in one such "copy and paste argument", at the end of which I was accused of having a brain disorder.

Personally I will not stay on this site for long if this continues to happen.

a reply to: Fer1527

This site is frustrating there is a lot of bot activity as the scum who control this planet do not want people knowing the truth and employ any means to dissuade people from educating themselves they hide the truth amongst the lies, start with operation gladio any truth seeker needs a reference point to why so many people are worried, if we had honest governments we would not be in this mess which the industrial revolution has created and we all need to remove the rich pricks that have killed our planet and start cleaning up as we have nothing to lose,
although the weapons that the military have dumped into the seas after WW2 have started to leak and are polluting the fish in the Baltic sea this should start a domino effect which will pull this planet down extremely fast and the people that created it will go underground and escape.