Women in the Military

Since there are on ATS a number of female current and former military members, and because the last time this subject came up it got hijacked, I thought it might be worthwhile to visit it again.

Please post your thoughts on this very controversial subject, with special attention from current and former members of the military, male or female (would especially like to hear the side of the women in uniform, if you ladies would like to speak on the subject).

Well, liek with males, the question goes down to, can they hack it?

There are women who can, women who cant. Just as I have seen males who can, and males who cant. the standards should definitely be raised, true, and many females might wash out, but it doesnt mean that all will.

Being a soldier is only 30% physical toughness, the real battle is the mind.

People who whine and complain that women in combat puts them at risk of getting captured, raped, killed, ect.

Like they will be perfectly safe at home folks? They are safer on the front lines than they are going to the store to get thier fat husbands dinner.

Am I to believe its ok if women get raped and murdered at home by fellow Americans, but its unbearable in a combat situation?

Welcome to the 21st Century.

Nowadays women can do a man's job and still maintain their duties as women.

Skadi, damn, did I meet you at Thunder Ranch one time????

It is VERY true that the majority of combat is indeed mental.... Even if you are the strongest person in the world, if you dont have the faith in yourself, the training, the coolness, and the intestinal fortitude to make it happen for yourself, you are going to die in combat, regardless of what happens.

As I have mentioned in other threads, I have been through some VERY intense training at Thunder Ranch, and probably THE toughest instructor was a mid 40s lady named Heidi Smith, who is at least 3 inches shorter than me. But, she can outshoot a Navy SEAL, can run an 18 year old track star into the ground, and has the drive that would make a US Marine DI back up and salute. (Well, shes married to one)

Should standard be raised? Yes. Will some women wash out? Yes. So will a lot more men as well. But, if you cant hack it in training, you are only going to get killed in combat, and that has NOTHING to do with your gender.

As far as the effects on morale due to female combat casualties... as Skadi said, the women are just as endangered on the roads at home with unknown serial rapists in the neighborhood as in combat. Watching a woman get shot up in combat? War is not a nice place, people get killed, that doesnt change. How does it effect people to see a woman get killed rather than a man? Hey, ITS ONE OF OUR PEOPLE, thats enough isnt it?

Thank you dragon, for driving home my point .

never been to thunder Ranch, what is it?

All strife in life depends more on mind over matter. The weakest, sickest, most frail of people have often survided the most harrowing and brutal conditions, where as fit and healthy persons, who lacked mind power, fell by the wayside.

What duties do u speak of, Illuminati?

Thunder Ranch, a 2400-acre world-class firearms training facility, has redefined the meaning of firearms training in the United States and possibly the world. Thunder Ranch offers state-of-the-art training facilities including classroom instruction, single- and multiple-story concrete shooting simulators, several precision and urban rifle ranges with simulators, as well as pistol and shotgun ranges. Thunder Ranch provides its clients with opportunities to explore, expand, and apply personal knowledge gained in the use of small arms and tactics in environments often limited to governmental agencies and in most cases never before available to the private sector or conventional enforcement personnel. We, at Thunder Ranch, are pleased to be able to take you into this next generation of learning.

www.thunderranchinc.com...

Its where you go to learn to get REAL.

Illmatic, tread carefully... I sense armed women in this thread...

I thought what I said would come as a compliment...?

Ah.....a shooters school! great idea.

More folks need to learn to respect and safely handle firearms instead of fearing them!

Plus, shooting is such a great sport, you need to physical prowess, just a sharp mind and bodily control!

Like I responded to the original thread which discussed this idea:

Words like Chivalry and Decency, in regards to women being in active combat, often seem to be words used by men to mask their own insecurities. Perhaps a women taking what they see as a 'male role' is a threat...for then they have to redefine 'what IS male'...where do they, as men, fit now...if women are now able to do what was principally 'their' work.

Women are not inherently frail and unable to fight...at least not the women I know. Nor are men inherently strong tough and brave. Those stereotypes may be based on some physical generalisations...but there are of course excepts to those stereotypes...and it seems to me that those brave souls who make up active combat units ARE the 'exceptions'...be they male or female...for it takes an exceptional person to do what they do.

Personally...I see no reason to stop women taking a role in active combat. If they can pass the training, deal with the demands active combat presents...if they are willing to take life, and thus take the risk of laying down their own for their country etc...then more power to them.



Peace,
ALIEN

Why not? If they can kill a canadian as well as any male, let them. Oh wait, we aren't at war with Canada, yet. Anyways, before WWII, women spent lot's of time at home. Boyus go off to fight, women take their jobs, and prove that they can do what men can. Later on, men leave and fight again, many women get into college, prove they are smart enough to do it. Now, men go off to war, women come, and prove they have the intestinal(sp?) fortitude to kill just like any man. Women have always been equal, it is just that they haven't been allowed to be equal. Now that they are allowed to, people see they are and can compete with men.

Unless it is golf, then when she tries to join the PGA she does so bad she wouldn't have been able to make it on the LPGA tour.

What's next? Women in NFL? The Powderpuffs vs Oakland Raiders, 147 to 0, poor girls. Or Georgia Peaches vs Detroit Lions, 198468424 to 0, poor Lions.

1. I have a problem with the presence of military and firearms in general

BUT

2. It's hard to find a new planet to live on in this lifetime

SO

3. If I look at the gender issue in general, I don't like the radical feminist position that says "Men through history have proved themselves to be nothing but useless warmongers - It is time for women to take control through the feminine side and bring about a peaceful world"

SO

4. I should support women in active combat roles because it would show that the ability to carry out orders and be ruthless in killing other human beings is not a uniquely male proposition, and women are equally capable of senseless bloodletting

BUT

5. Refer point 1

SO

6. Carry on and read the next person's post.

When I took the Urban Tactical Rifle course at Thunder Ranch, there was a rather petite 41 year old single mother of 2 who enrolled with a WWII vintage M1 carbine that her father had left her.

A lot of the macho guys (all armed with AR-15 clones) gave her an exceptionally hard time about being in the class, that she really didnt want to put herself through such hardship, get hurt, and waste so much money on something she would never use. They used her ancient weapon as evidence that she really shouldnt be there.

When we started the live fire drills, well, things changed a bit.

First of all, she turned out to be one of the classes sharpshooters (her father had obviously taught her very well how to use that ancient gun of hers, and she did so with excellent accuracy) while the macho guys muddled through wasting far more ammo than they put in the enemies kill zone.

Although she was a rather small woman, she didnt miss a step in the training, even though it was something the marines would have thought twice about.

When the guys were huffing and puffing and bitching about how hot it was and how tired they were, she was asking Clint or Heidi to reset the targets so she could give it one more try (even though she made damn near a perfect score already).

(I really got a kick out of this) The macho guys got a LOT of practice at clearing malfunctions from thier Mattell Black Plastic Toy Rifles (as I lovingly refer to the AR-15), while her 50+ year old M1 Carbine pumped right along, never missing a round, never malfunctioning... As long as there was ammo to cycle through the action, it worked each time.

So, in a combat situation, where the targets really shoot back and if you dont watch yourself you end up in a body bag... I would be VERY happy to have this lady watching my back.

Masked Avatar, bloodletting is something women have engaged in.well, before they were women. Look in the animal kingdom and you will find ruthlessness and bloodshed by females quite often. Look at many wars in hsitory, and many will show, the women were more dangerous because they were not inhibited by false fantasies that certain codes of honor made killing more civil: women made sure warfare and death was stripped down to its nastiest essentials. See world war 2: Russian women snipers and army fill ins.

Humanity will never give up its taste for bloodshed and war because humanity is still an animal being. Some forms of bloodshed are necessary, because there are humans out there that make it so.

See world war 2: Russian women snipers and army fill ins. Posted by Skadi

Even more recently I would suggest the 6 Days War, when most most of the Arab world attempted to invade Israel... a good number of ground troops were Israeli women who made good examples of just how effective women can be in combat.

Originally posted by dragonrider
Illmatic, tread carefully... I sense armed women in this thread...

Have you ever noticed that women prefer other options rather than shooting things? Remember that old adage: "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggie' till you can find a big enough rock." Women are natural diplomats, most of the time.

And most are quite aware of the "age and treachery will undo youth and enthusiasm..."

Here's to Machiavelli!

Yeah.

Looking at my anti-radical-feminist stance another way, it is good to have a body of evidence about Amazonian warlike tendencies and successful female combatabts through history.

I agree with Byrd that women will use diplomacy more often and with better results than men rather than resorting to all out physical attack on all fronts. They are built that way.

Their uninhibited ability to carry out things in the "male" world is still relatively recent. It's not that long ago that a wife was a chattel. Some of my less emancipated buddies haven't even caught up with that yet.

"Diplomacy" is particularly useful in household wars, when, for example, the withdrawal of emotional support, conversation, or even sexual favours is a useful bargaining tool or weapon.

Machiavelli indeed.

Anyway I have wandered off the open combat subject matter. Maybe.

Why have none of the Amazons responded? Is it a conspiracy?

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by dragonrider
Illmatic, tread carefully... I sense armed women in this thread...

Have you ever noticed that women prefer other options rather than shooting things? Remember that old adage: "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggie' till you can find a big enough rock." Women are natural diplomats, most of the time.

And most are quite aware of the "age and treachery will undo youth and enthusiasm..."

Here's to Machiavelli!

speaking of 'nice doggie'
i think women should abandon the military and form a line outside of my Igloo for induction into a far better service
I have been fighting long enough alone, sure could use some capable assistance

Their uninhibited ability to carry out things in the "male" world is still relatively recent. Posted by tut

Havent studied too much history, have you?

In the mid-first century, Hau Mu-Lan became on of China�s most famous warriors. She dressed as a man and took her father�s place in the army for 12 years. She was such a good fighter that her commanding officer, thinking she was indeed a male, offered her his daughter�s hand in marriage since he believed this was his greatest male warrior.
There have been accounts of more than 20 women who served in the British Royal Navy or Marines from the late 17th to the early 19th centuries. These women were all disguised as men.
Kit Cavanagh, or �Mother Ross� served as a dragoon in the British Army, disguised as a man at first, but later she fought openly as a woman. She received a military battle when she died of old age.
Also serving as a British dragoon was Ann Mills, who fought on the frigate Maidstone in 1740.
Franziska Scanagatta disguised herself as a male and graduated from the Austrian Military in 1797, after which she served in the French Revolution and was promoted to lieutenant in 1880. After her gender was discovered a year later, she left the army.
Deborah Samson served as a male during the American Revolution. She received a small pension, and her husband received benefits based on her service.
Numerous women fought as men in the United States Civil War. Some of these are Frances Day who served as �Frank Mayne,� Lizzie Compton who would simply join a new regiment if her gender was discovered, Frances Martin who fought under the alias �Frank Hook,� Frances Clayton who enlisted to be with her husband, and Jennie Hodges or �Albert Cashier� who continued to dress as a man after the war was over.
Some of the most famous women soldiers of the American Civil War were spies, such as Sarah Emma Edmonds or �Franklin Thompson� who joined the Union army, and Loreta Janeta Velazquez or �Lieutenant Harry T. Buford� of the Confederate army. They would both switch disguises from male to female.

Openly female warriors are very rare, but they do exist. The earliest account we have of openly female warriors fighting with men is that of female Roman gladiators.


Some Native American societies, such as the Apache, have allowed women to participate in combat. These women receive much military training as they learn how to ride and how to use a knife, bow, and rifle when they are young girls. The women also are expected to guard the camp while the men are away. The most famous Apache female warrior, Lozen, fought with Geronimo and was known as �The Woman Warrior.� Women have fought openly in industrialized societies as well, in such wars as the French Revolution, the American Civil War, and World War I. The women who fought during the French Revolution had actually proposed forming a women�s militia, but they were turned down. Some still fought with the men, such as Renee Bordereau, who served in the royalist cavalry. In the U.S. Civil War, there were tow known cases of women fighting openly as officers for the Confederacy, and those who fought openly during World War I did so in many armies.


Not only have women fought openly with men, but many have also led their militaries, many of which have won great battles under such leadership. Most female warriors have been queens who exercised their military leadership through their political role. Some early accounts of warrior queens include Thyra, the queen of Denmark, who in 890 AD led her army against the Germans and built a wall as a part of Denmark�s defense against invading countries. In 109, Urraca became the sole ruler of Leon-Castile after her husband�s death. She married Alfonso of Aragon in 1098 and spent the remainder of her reign at war with her own husband in order to protect her son�s inheritance rights. She and her half-sister who ruled in Portugal both personally led their armies into battle. There have also been Warrior Queens who have fought to save their husbands, rather than the traditional role of the man being the protector. Isabella of Lorraine led an army to free her husband Rene in 1429.

Non-noble women have also fought to protect their homes. In 40 AD, the Trung sisters of Vietnam led a revolt of 80,000 Vietnamese peasants against Chinese rule. This freed China of Vietnamese domination for the first time in over 1,000 years. They have become a symbol of Vietnamese nationalism with numerous temples being built in their honor. Another example concerns two sisters, Amaron and Kenau Hasselaar, who defended the Dutch city of Haarlem against a Spanish invasion in 1568.

Perhaps the most famous of female military leaders was Joan of Arc who, disguised as a male, led the French army into the battle that returned Orleans to France. She was very talented at organizing armies for battle, riding a horse while wielding a lance, and setting up artillery, a fairly new tactic at the time.

www.cofc.edu...

i think women should abandon the military and form a line outside of my Igloo for induction into a far better service Posted by tut

That kind of attitude is probably why you dont get any...