The Paganism of Christianity

Originally posted by Nygdan
The early christian community, so far as I understand it, had this concept of saints, but no official organ deciding what was saintly and what was not. I think that 'saint4god' is recalling this tradition when he/she says that this woman struggled against black magic and thus became a 'saint'.
[edit on 17-12-2004 by Nygdan]

Props! I think you've explained it better than I could've. Nice work

Ah, nice to see that I understood your position on it.

Originally posted by saint4God
I would question their 'christianity' if they were praying against you. Christians should be praying for you. They should be helping you achieve, not fall.

Yeah.. selective morals unfortuantly. Some seem to exuse themselves from abiding by one teaching by making it NA by quoting another.

Disagreed. If they listen at any point and see there is a problem, then success is possible. Kind of defeatest to say there is no hope.

Yes but I think life's lessons would teach them that rather than church.

Oh, the vatican. I don't pray to the vatican. I wonder what they're using as their 'rule book'? Doesn't look the same as my Book.

Agreed.. if the pope is an example of a a true christian is meant to be there is a major problem. [I can't stand the guy]

Oppression is never good.

Buddhism itself isn't oppressive.. there is motive behind it.. stripping away things that define us into neat little boxes.. cleaning the slate and trying to desifer fact from fiction. Being a monk/nun on the other hand.. no luxury items allowed and.. that would include paint [I haven't verfied that yet]. I'm an artist so that would be repressing a part of myself that was meant to be expressed so it's not compatable. I'm uncertain about the monk/nun thing though.. buddhism is andongenous but there seems to be [as whith every other religion] some gender bias which seems to contadict it. Christanity on the other hand is extreamily oppresive in some instances. Whilst the 'denying oneself' in buddhism is designed to help obtain enlightenment and objectivity about the world.. christianity leans towards humility for repentive and punnishment reasons.. encouraging shame which makes people 'shrink' away from exploring their potential.

Seek truth and you'll find. If there's anything I can help with I certainly will try.

Which truth?

[edit on 21-12-2004 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Yes but I think life's lessons would teach them that rather than church.

Either one really, but I can comfortably say locking oneself in a box tends to deny wisdom. Use the box allogory for whatever - home, tv, solitude, etc.

Originally posted by riley
Christanity on the other hand is extreamily oppresive in some instances. .. christianity leans towards humility for repentive and punnishment reasons.. encouraging shame which makes people 'shrink' away from exploring their potential. Any expanding or specifics on your statement would be welcomed as well.

Although I cannot deny that this has been a tool for power-seeking 'christians', I don't think this was the original/true intention. It's supposed to help one recognize one's faults in order to do what is right. As I see it, sin is a weight that holds people back from their potential.

Seek truth and you'll find. If there's anything I can help with I certainly will try.

Originally posted by riley
Which truth?

[edit on 21-12-2004 by riley]

The truth. We know it when we see it though sometimes we deny it for whatever selfish reasons.

Originally posted by saint4God
Either one really, but I can comfortably say locking oneself in a box tends to deny wisdom. Use the box allogory for whatever - home, tv, solitude, etc.

Occasional solitude is good for reflection. TV is good for numbing the brain.

Originally posted by riley
Christanity on the other hand is extreamily oppresive in some instances. .. christianity leans towards humility for repentive and punnishment reasons.. encouraging shame which makes people 'shrink' away from exploring their potential.

Any expanding or specifics on your statement would be welcomed as well.

Pride for example is classified as a 'sin' and is heavily discouraged.. I notice alot of people would rather hide their abilites rather than being accused of being immodest.. hindering thei potential. I don't think being proud would send someone to 'hell' but their may be real reasons why it can be counter-productive. Too much pride though might lead people to act superior to others which would prevent them empathising with them.. helping and learning from them. Lieing as well.. it's not for religious reasons I dislike it.. I was 'born' an artist but I wouldn't call myself one until I actually proved I was one and started to embrace that potential. I might have a voice as well but I wouldn't call myself a singer until I actually sang in public and verified it. Vanity.. I don't think someone will go to hell if they are vain.. but if they depend on it exclusively for their identity and self worth they are limiting themselves to that. I personally believe in monogomy.. but it's not because I believe it's 'sinning' to be attracted to someone else.. I just like honesty and being true to oneself. I believe if somone wants to 'cheat' on someone they should end that relationship and then move on as it might be time.. not a 'sinning' thing but out of respect. There are indeed logical and rational reasons not to 'sin'.. like the fact that some things are just emotionally and 'spiritually' unhealthy. The concept of hell doesn't explain this though.

As I see it, sin is a weight that holds people back from their potential.

So is shame.

The truth. We know it when we see it though sometimes we deny it for whatever selfish reasons.

I think truth is a matter of perspective.. one isn't any more valuable than another. [I like fact though.. which is something different entirely.]
Everyone insinctively knows that to deliberately hurt someone for example is wrong.. they feel it.. though they might choose to ignore it for.. whatever selfish reason [power etc.] I don't think it's something that really needs to be taught.. just nurtured.

When people address the paganism in the "Christian" church, typically they're referring to Catholicism.

Constantine, who can be called the first pope, decided to merge Christianity with paganism for political reasons, back in the 4th century A.D. The Christians were having a hard time with persecution and some accepted Constantine's brand of "Christianity," which in time evolved into the Roman Catholic church.

The true Bible-believers rejected this and basically went underground. In fact, in Jeremiah chapter 10 it warns us not to learn the ways of the heathen.

The Protestant churches came out of Catholicism, and they're going right back into it. Baptists, btw, were never Protestants. Around the time of the Reformation, Baptists/Anabaptists were getting persecuted by Protestants as well as Catholics, a lot of it due to their position against infant baptism.

Xmas is essentially a Catholic holiday, as is Easter, which is why my husband and I refuse to keep them. We do not deny that Christ was born of a virgin and died on the cross and rose after THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS (not this Friday-Sunday stuff--it was Wednesday evening to Saturday evening). But Christ was not born on December 25--in fact, December 25 is supposed to be the birthday of Tammuz, son of Semiramis. Semiramis and Tammuz eventually became the Roman Catholic Mary and Jesus.

I would get hold of the book "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop. It was originally published in the 19th century, but you can get it from Chick Publications or possibly even Amazon.com (not sure about that). It explains a lot. I have the book and it's a pretty good read.

Quote: "Christians are instructed to pray to God, Not Jesus, not the
Holy Spirit, Not to angels, not to other saints/Christians."

So in other words so-called "Christians" in-fact Practice Judaism! Do "Christians" always do what they are told - like good Obedient Sheep?

Thank "GOD" for the Heavy PAGAN influence in true Christianity! If I Wanted to Practice JUDAISM I would call myself a JEW - NOT a Christian (You people need to get your Religions straight & start thinking for yourselves for a change)!

Judaism Bores me! It is Restrictive & Oppressive! "GOD" is a Tyrant!
Thou Shalt Not do this - Thou Shalt Not do that - or what?

To quote George Carlin: "Religion has people thinking that If they don't do exactly as the Invisible Man in the Sky says that he will send you to HELL to be Tortured Forever - but that he "Loves" you & He Needs your MONEY"!

Isn't that the way that it has been going down for a long time! An Angry Phallic God that will Punish you - but he actually "Loves" you & he ALWAYS needs your Money! You need to wake up to the Priests Manipulative Game!

No Thank You - I think that I will Pass - Being that we Live in the
21st Century & all � I prefer Scientific & Rational Concepts!


[edit on 22-12-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Amethyst
When people address the paganism in the "Christian" church, typically they're referring to Catholicism.

Constantine, who can be called the first pope,

Constantine could only be considered the first pope if one has no idea what one is talking about.

decided to merge Christianity with paganism for political reasons,

Uhm, no, he didn't.

Constantine's brand of "Christianity," which in time evolved into the Roman Catholic church.

Constantine's religion probably has more in common with the Greek Orthodox church than anything.

The true Bible-believers rejected this and basically went underground. In fact, in Jeremiah chapter 10 it warns us not to learn the ways of the heathen.

If they went underground, they went so far as to have disappeared.

Xmas is essentially a Catholic holiday, as is Easter, which is why my husband and I refuse to keep them.

Its celebrated by catholics, the orthodox, and most christians. Its not a 'catholic' holiday, it existed prior to catholicism, along with easter.

Semiramis and Tammuz eventually became the Roman Catholic Mary and Jesus.

This is a particualrly common misperception. Infact, the tammuz myth is linked to christianity, and its 'replicated' in the bible, long before the catholic church. The 'paganism' of christianity is there from the start, in the gospels and mythology itself.

I would get hold of the book "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop. It was originally published in the 19th century, but you can get it from Chick Publications

Is that jack chick, of chick tracts? Yea, real well researched and educated group there. The slander that the RCC worships mary because its a pagan cult is long standing and complete BS. No catholic worships mary or any saint. Saints and veneration of Mary are not specific to catholicism, and, again, the parallels with paganistic beleifs in christianity are outside of cathloicism. The died and resurrected god and all the rest that is the sin qua non of christianity are the pagan parallels.

Originally posted by riley
TV is good for numbing the brain.

I don't know if this counteracts my statement or verifies it, but my spouse would agree. I agree reflection is good now and then, but can turn to depression when alone all the time.

Originally posted by riley
Pride for example is classified as a 'sin' and is heavily discouraged.. I notice alot of people would rather hide their abilites rather than being accused of being immodest.. hindering thei potential. I don't think being proud would send someone to 'hell' but their may be real reasons why it can be counter-productive. Too much pride though might lead people to act superior to others which would prevent them empathising with them.. helping and learning from them. Lieing as well.. it's not for religious reasons I dislike it.. I was 'born' an artist but I wouldn't call myself one until I actually proved I was one and started to embrace that potential. I might have a voice as well but I wouldn't call myself a singer until I actually sang in public and verified it. Vanity.. I don't think someone will go to hell if they are vain.. but if they depend on it exclusively for their identity and self worth they are limiting themselves to that. I personally believe in monogomy.. but it's not because I believe it's 'sinning' to be attracted to someone else.. I just like honesty and being true to oneself. I believe if somone wants to 'cheat' on someone they should end that relationship and then move on as it might be time.. not a 'sinning' thing but out of respect. There are indeed logical and rational reasons not to 'sin'.. like the fact that some things are just emotionally and 'spiritually' unhealthy. The concept of hell doesn't explain this though.

Pride - The Bible does build confidence too, but warns of the problems with excess. Case-in-point, the 'holy-roller' image is a big problem when trying to help other people. Lying - we feel it's wrong doing it because we're causing harm through deception. This should be be enough reason whether Christian or not as you've said. Vanity - God has made us and to say that were 'ugly' is to deny his creation. On the other hand, is an entirely new set of fingers. If we fill our hearts with love for ourselves, how can we then have room for God and other people? Cheating - the sin is disrespect I think. The physical act is not the issue, it's the deception and selfishness that's the reason for the sin. I think you're right on with the 'spiritual health' idea. How can you help someone else when you have too many issues yourself? Physically the same. Though it does not matter what size or shape you are, if all you're doing is getting down about yourself or spending too much time in a mirror, where's the time for others? As it is written "Be you, do what you do"...oh wait, that's Dr. Pepper .

As I see it, sin is a weight that holds people back from their potential.

Originally posted by riley
So is shame.

Agreed. When you do something wrong, you do feel ashamed (or should) but you should be learning from it, change and grow. James 1:2 "Consider it pure joy my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops persrverance. Perserverance must finish its work that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."

Originally posted by riley
Everyone insinctively knows that to deliberately hurt someone for example is wrong..

Who do you think is reponsible for this 'programming'?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "Christians are instructed to pray to God, Not Jesus, not the
Holy Spirit, Not to angels, not to other saints/Christians."

So in other words so-called "Christians" in-fact Practice Judaism! Do "Christians" always do what they are told - like good Obedient Sheep?

Try me

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Thank "GOD" for the Heavy PAGAN influence in true Christianity! If I Wanted to Practice JUDAISM I would call myself a JEW - NOT a Christian (You people need to get your Religions straight & start thinking for yourselves for a change)!

Need I go through the difference again? C'mon Serpente, you know the difference, I'm not going to insult your intelligence.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Judaism Bores me! It is Restrictive & Oppressive! "GOD" is a Tyrant!
Thou Shalt Not do this - Thou Shalt Not do that - or what?

You're still living Old Testament, huh?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
To quote George Carlin: "Religion has people thinking that If they don't do exactly as the Invisible Man in the Sky says that he will send you to HELL to be Tortured Forever - but that he "Loves" you & He Needs your MONEY"!

Oh yes, the wise sage George Carlin...right...

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Isn't that the way that it has been going down for a long time! An Angry Phallic God that will Punish you - but he actually "Loves" you & he ALWAYS needs your Money! You need to wake up to the Priests Manipulative Game!

Phallic eh? I know what's on your mind then. Bitter about the offeratory. Look up offeratory in the dictionary. Does it say manditory? Let me help you with the search

Main Entry: of�fer�to�ry
Pronunciation: 'o-f&(r)-"tOr-E, '�-, -"tor-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Medieval Latin offertorium, from Late Latin offerre
1 often capitalized a : the eucharistic offering of bread and wine to God before they are consecrated at Communion b : a verse from a Psalm said or sung at the beginning of the offertory
2 a : the period of collection and presentation of the offerings of the congregation at public worship b : a musical composition played or sung during an offertory

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
No Thank You - I think that I will Pass - Being that we Live in the
21st Century & all � I prefer Scientific & Rational Concepts!
[edit on 22-12-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Science says when we die, we cease to exist. Hope you have a good 80 years, good luck being worm-food afterwards Serpente.

[edit on 22-12-2004 by saint4God]

[edit on 22-12-2004 by saint4God]

So according to your last response, the only reason to believe in God is so we won't have to fear death? Sounds like a good excuse to me.

Seraphim_Serpente:

So in other words so-called "Christians" in-fact Practice Judaism! Do "Christians" always do what they are told - like good Obedient Sheep?

Do you really have to ask that question? I do not think that anybody including Christians do exactly as they are told.

Thank "GOD" for the Heavy PAGAN influence in true Christianity! If I Wanted to Practice JUDAISM I would call myself a JEW - NOT a Christian (You people need to get your Religions straight & start thinking for yourselves for a change)!

If you wanted to practice Judaism, then you would discard the new testament. All Christians I know try to follow the teachings of Christ.

Judaism Bores me! It is Restrictive & Oppressive! "GOD" is a Tyrant!

Fair enough. I'm sorry if you believe your invisible friend is a Tyrant.

To quote George Carlin: "Religion has people thinking that If they don't do exactly as the Invisible Man in the Sky says that he will send you to HELL to be Tortured Forever - but that he "Loves" you & He Needs your MONEY"!

I can see his influence on your thinking

Isn't that the way that it has been going down for a long time! An Angry Phallic God that will Punish you - but he actually "Loves" you & he ALWAYS needs your Money! You need to wake up to the Priests Manipulative Game!

Why would God need your money? He has no use for it. Possibly your church may ask for money so they can build new churches or for community services whatever. I understand that some institutions can abuse this.

No Thank You - I think that I will Pass - Being that we Live in the 21st Century & all � I prefer Scientific & Rational Concepts!

And what Rational Concept would that be, the Big Bang?


For those people not well versed on Constantine, you could read www.roman-emperors.org... for a brief bio.

Nygdan

quote: decided to merge Christianity with paganism for political reasons, Uhm, no, he didn't.

"Constantine's profession of Christianity was not an unmixed blessing to the church. Constantine used the church as an instrument of imperial policy, imposed upon it his imperial ideology, and thus deprived it of much of the independence which it had previously enjoyed."

And how is this not for 'political reasons'?? Can you say that George W Bush does not mix church and state?? Maybe you should look over his policies on gay marriages.

quote: Constantine's brand of "Christianity," which in time evolved into the Roman Catholic church.

Constantine's religion probably has more in common with the Greek Orthodox church than anything.

So then, enlighten us.

quote: Xmas is essentially a Catholic holiday, as is Easter, which is why my husband and I refuse to keep them. Its celebrated by catholics, the orthodox, and most christians.

Its not a 'catholic' holiday, it existed prior to Catholicism, along with Easter.

You seem to be full of knowledge so you might want to tell us what pagan/Christian movements pray to saints? (Seeing that is what Santa is... Saint Nic)

This is a particualrly common misperception. Infact, the tammuz myth is linked to christianity, and its 'replicated' in the bible, long before the catholic church. The 'paganism' of christianity is there from the start, in the gospels and mythology itself.

I'm yet to see the connection. Would you care to paint the picture for us?

No catholic worships mary or any saint.

In practice, the Catholic attitude towards Mary amounts to worship. Catholics worship Mary because they pray to her, kneel before her image, trust in her for salvation and attribute to her titles and honours which belong to God alone.

Is it just a co-incidence that the Holy Prophet Muhammad had a daughter, whose name was Fatima?

Oh Fatima! Allah, the Mighty, the Exalted, is angered at the one who makes you angry and is satisfied with the one who pleases you

members.ozemail.com.au...
al-islam.org...

So is there a link? Hmm I wonder!!!

"When a statue of Our Lady of Fatima is carried through Muslim areas of Africa and India, hundreds of thousands of Muslims come. In two days half a million Muslims came to give their respects to this statue in Bombay, India"

"Fatima was the name of Mohammad�s favourite daughter. The village of Fatima, in Portugal, was named after a woman who converted to Islam and took the name Fatima. So it is named after Mohammad�s favourite daughter.
This village is where �Mary� appeared to three children. This is where Our Lady of Fatima appeared. The following quotes are from a homily (short sermon) by a Catholic priest."

I�m sure you can come up with your own decision.


And the Catholic Church is not being influenced by 'other' religions?
www.fatima.org...
www.dailycatholic.org...

Catholics do pray to Mary and to their saints. This is coming from a former Catholic. They give out prayer cards with the image of a saint and a prayer to them. If you need help with something, you pray to a specific patron saint. If that is not a clear pagan influence, please explain it to me.

Originally posted by Ikku
Catholics do pray to Mary and to their saints. This is coming from a former Catholic. They give out prayer cards with the image of a saint and a prayer to them. If you need help with something, you pray to a specific patron saint. If that is not a clear pagan influence, please explain it to me.

So getting back to your main post Ikku, Do you have an issue with Christianity as a whole or just the RCC? (Which seems to be the issue).

I know that the Bible says there is only 1 God which = (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) The Bible describes the Holy Spirit as being a Helper. I do not think that Christians pray to this entity directly. Christ also says that no one can get to the Father except through him. So we do pray to Christ. Why Christ has a son, I have no idea. Why his spirit is a different entity I have no idea. May have to do some more research.

I have been a christian all my life and I still find the trinity thing a little mysterious and outside of my understanding, so I treat it pretty much like a blackbox with little 'bits' of knowledge I do have jammed in there. I do believe in it though as from personal experience it has made a change in me and many of my friends and families lives. So go figure!

I have issues with religion as a whole. It appears to me that Christianity, despite what many will tell you, is heavily influenced by paganism, and that the RCC is pretty much a controlling entity that uses fear and guilt to appeal to people. I see no reason why we have to believe in something like this to live.

Originally posted by Ikku
I have issues with religion as a whole. It appears to me that Christianity, despite what many will tell you, is heavily influenced by paganism, and that the RCC is pretty much a controlling entity that uses fear and guilt to appeal to people. I see no reason why we have to believe in something like this to live.

But thats the thing. You DONT need it to live, your science will tell you that. However, if you believe in an afterlife (which science does not attempt to explain) then there remains a belief in something.

Quote: "You're still living Old Testament, huh?"

No I am Not - but I see plenty of so-called American "Christians" who are!
I too Believe in the GOSPELS - but don't forget that the "Bible" that most Americans use is the
"King James" (which many believe is the LITERAL Word of GOD BTW - even though it was written by MEN) - & in that book the OLD Testament Always comes before the NEW Testament! Have you ever tried reading the "Bible" BACKWARDS - it is FUN! Hebrew is Written & Read backwards after all - its quite Illuminating!

Quote: "Science says when we die, we cease to exist."

I beg to differ! What is the Difference between Life & Death? Human Beings are Not Inanimate Objects! This is Science - we are Sentient Beings!

Our Brain is a Container for our Mind/Consciousness - which we Develop over our Lives in Space/Time as we Learn & Grow. We need to Eat to Survive because everything works with ENERGY! LIFE IS ENERGY - CONCIOUSNESS IS ENERGY! And as we know - "Energy can neither be Created Nor Destroyed"!

I suggest that you look into Karma & Re-Incarnation!


[edit on 23-12-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Just to tap into a little bit of this conversation, a little off topic so I am sorry, just need ot clarify something.

Is my old testament a load of crap because of the new testament. Can I throw it out as a superceeded item of my library

Didn't think things were allowed to be changed so I would of thought if the new testament contradicted anything in the old it would be classed as gnostic, heresey or something.

Again excuse the tangent to subject

Originally posted by shmick25
And how is this not for 'political reasons'?

he did not merge it with paganism. He didn't force the creation of the saints and he didn't force them to co-opt pagan temples. And he certainly didn't write the gospels, which have pagan 'parallels'.

quote: Constantine's brand of "Christianity," which in time evolved into the Roman Catholic church.
Constantine's religion probably has more in common with the Greek Orthodox church than anything.

So then, enlighten us.
I am basing this on that the RCC didn't exist then and the Pope was merely the patriarch of rome.

You seem to be full of knowledge so you might want to tell us what pagan/Christian movements pray to saints? (Seeing that is what Santa is... Saint Nic)

St nick is a greek orthodox saint. Like I said, Catholics are not the only christian religion that has 'saints'. Christmas and Easter, again, are not only celebrated by catholics and weren't invented by catholics as far as I know. Do you know of anything that suggests different?

I'm yet to see the connection. Would you care to paint the picture for us?

Amoung the world religions there is a repeated motif of a dying and resurrecting god. Jesus is fixed to a cross, dies, and is reborn. Tammuz dies and is reborn. Osiris dies, and his coffin is picked up in a tree where his body is fixed, he too is reborn. Inanna, a sumerian godess, travels to the underworld, dies afixed to a tall pole, and is reborn, and moreso when she returns to life she 'frees' the souls of people trapped in the underworld. The 'god on a stick', to speak irreverently, is not unique to christianity. Apparently this motif is repeated in many different religions.

On the ritual of the eucharist (i think that the general idea of a shared meal is uncontroversially common), the elusian mysteries apparently had a ritual that, at the height of it, had a stalk of wheat raised by the preist to the crowd of believers, and this is one of the 'cults' that early christianity was in competition with.

Also, the ritual consumption of the body of a god is common throuhgout many religions, but I think its too 'obvious' to be much of a connection. As is the idea of manicheanism 'duality' between good and evil and the gnostic idea of humans being 'evil' matter that has shards of holy 'light' or souls trapped in them and that have ot be freed from the material in, ultimately death.

In practice, the Catholic attitude towards Mary amounts to worship.

Irrelevant. No catholics actually worship her anymore than all christians are part of a cannibal cult. Catholics pray to saints and venerate mary, but worship the trinity. A hindu or muslim would insist that christians are polytheists because of the trinity. Does that appearance make it so? Are you a polytheist? To an outsider a zoroasterian appears to be a fire worshipper, but they too are not.

Is it just a co-incidence that the Holy Prophet Muhammad had a daughter, whose name was Fatima?

Are you suggesting that Catholics are mohamedeans or the muslims are papists?

This village is where �Mary� appeared to three children. This is where Our Lady of Fatima appeared.

Do you not understand then that the occurance is in fact coincidental? The town is called Fatima after a woman who converted to islam and took up the name of mohammed's daughter. Later the christians take the town over, and someone has a vision of mary in the town of fatima. If it was the town of dallas, then it'd be the lady of dallas. And what does it matter that muslims flock to the statues of mary of fatima? The are probably saying 'stupid christians, not knowing that this is infact the daughter of the prophet himself"

This touches on the larger point. The muslims see the christian mary and go to her as if she were the prophets daughter. They recognize her as mohammed's daughter infact. Similiarly, the christians react to the ancient dying and resurrecting god as being jesus, to others, it was inanna, and still others osiris. Its the same motif, repeated in different cultural contexts. Heck, here its the same statue being simulateously viewed under two different cultures, christian and muslim. And in bombay nonetheless!

I�m sure you can come up with your own decision.

Yes, i can and I have and I do not need to read slander directed at catholics for being polytheists apostatic pagans. That kind of garbage resulted in anti-catholic purges in england and other countries. Whatever the ritual no catholic worships mary as a goddess or expects that she has any characteristics outside of those given to her by the 'one true god' the three part but unified, the 'triune' god.

I think that, in the end, that is the best analogy. Catholics are no more polytheists because of mary than any other christians are because of the "three gods".

ikku
If that is not a clear pagan influence, please explain it to me

Its patently obivious that its a pagan influence, and its reinforced by the fact that those saints are patrons of the same area of life as the particular pagan god that they replaced, a god that they replaced so utterly that they've build their saintly shrines atop the pagan god's temple. However, that does not mean that Catholics beleive mary is a godess. You siad you used to be a catholic, did you think then that St. Patrick was the god of ireland or that Mary was a full goddess? If you are then you are the first catholic that I have ever met that thought that. Similarly, catholics don't worship statues merely because they have statues in their churches, and the orthodox aren't idolaters beceuse they lay importance to their faith on icons.

shmick
Why Christ has a son, I have no idea. Why his spirit is a different entity I have no idea. May have to do some more research

I have not researched this directly or intenseley myself, but the orthodox theologians did spend a lot of time investigating that very issue, they looked at the 'aspects' of christ and what parts were man and what parts were god or if there were any human aspects and the likes. It might prove fruitful comparative research for you in that area.

If you think about it, all Christians are Jews...

Jews that have embraced Jesus as the Messiah are Christians.

"Jews" still await their messiah.

Muslims derive their lineage from Abraham, as do Jews.

We are all Jews, all the Chosen people of god, who are all that believe, regardless of race...

We all are really one really big family that doesn't get along....

I think the underlying point of this whole post was for one person to try to feel better about their beliefs, or lack their of. It's pretty easy to see how we got here when you read the post. All the squabbling, all the details and semantics. They mean nothing...

If you get back to the base, the Alpha and the Omega, so to speak, then you begin to see that the little stuff doesn't matter all that much, and that it's more about you and God and what you believe, and not about what YOU think YOUR NEIGHBOR should believe.