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They are neither male nor female

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posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 08:45 AM
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Having recently studied the traditions of the magicians and exorcists of Sumer i of course also came across the associated Demonology lore so i thought i may as well share some of that, here's an interesting example which should sort of look familiar;


"the Seven from the source of the Apsu grew up in a cella in the source of the Apsu

They are neither male nor female, they neither marry nor bear children."


Of course that is as the description of the expected post-resurrection nature of the redeemed from the Gospels as comparable to the Angels, yet here it is from a Sumerian compendium of Demonic lore namely Utukku Lemnutu, with regards to the seven of the Apsu the reference must be to the Apkallu, they could sometimes be considered Demonic.

Here's a good general description of the activity of Demons;


"has no mouth has no limbs has no face"

"in bed at night, copulates with a man in his sleep"

"urinates like an ass while crouching over a man"

"always flies about like a bat in the clefts at night"

"always flies around at night like a bird in the dark"

covers the victim like a gill net snares the victim like a hunting net"

"prowls about quitely at night like an urban fox"


The comparison of Demons to bats then sourcing back to Sumeria as well as sleep paralysis were the victim is caught as in a net, though being urinated on is seldom reported these days, but anyway how to counter this;


"grasped in my right hand the raven, the herldic bird of the gods"

"sent off the falcon, the noble bird, from my left hand towards your evil face."

"put around my neck against you a terrifying red scarf"

"dressed my pure body against you in a red cloak, a cloak of awe."

"hung a mouse from the door lintel"

"hung the soot of a single thornbush from a peg"

"seared your body with a whip like a stray donkey."



Should do the trick for some types, but of course there were many types differing in nature and intent, a ghost who constantly flits about the mountain spring, a Gallu-demon who performs sex crudely, a fate demon who extends a hand, Utukku-demon who pays no mind to cries.

Also it was not only people that they could inflict their attentions upon;


. ...from the mountain, the pure place, it came,from the netherworld, it rose, falling on the breast of the virgin, falling on the neck of the lad, falling on the yoke of the donkey falling on the thick shoulders of the oxen as it came from the mountain as it rose from the netherworld,the samānu-demon


They weren't always seen as entirely hostile, at least if they were storm Demons that produced rain i suppose;


" ‘Storm-demon of life,’ born in Ur,

‘Storm-demon of abundance’ of the good denizen of Nippur,

‘Storm-demon of celebration,’ growing up in Eridu,

‘Benevolent Storm-demon,’ which came forth in Kullab,

‘Storm-demon with the fair face,’ offspring of Kis^,

‘Just Storm-demon,’ august judge of Lagas^,

‘Storm-demon which grants a threatened man life




But of course these are great elemental archetypes of nature, not the sort of thing likely to manifest in one's bedroom, in these regards there is an interesting text were Anu and Istar as Celestial Deites incite seven such storm Dieties to block out the Moon, cause an eclipse, and the King as Marduk protects the people;


They are the swooping vultures which darken the daybreak."

"They cast off fearsome radiance like an Alu^-demon, they are concealed by an aura."

"the first of them is the furious South Wind,and the second is a predator whose mouth is open , the third one is a furious panther

The fourth one is a fearful serpent,the fifth one is a raging lion , the sixth one is a rising wave ,the seventh one is a storm, a harmful gale.

The Seven of them act as messenger of Lord Anu.



... they walk on the right side of Adad the storm god, and continually flash like lightning on the horizon."

"Ishtar plots the eclipse of the moon ,

At that time, the Seven of them were evil gods who were whirling about in the base of heaven, they kept circling furiously in front of the crescent moon.

Once the hero Samas and valiant Adad were deflected,Istar, together with Lord Anu, occupied the holy residence and was plotting against the rule of heaven."

Ea called to his son Marduk ‘Go, my son Marduk, moon Sin is being cruelly darkened in heaven --his eclipse is apparent in heaven.’

The Seven of them constantly circle before the crescent moon.

Once the hero Samas and valiant Adad had been deflected,the great gods went into hiding the wild animals devour each other darkness has encircled the whole of the lands."

"It is the king, the son of his personal god, who, like the moonlight, supports the population,bearing radiance on his head like the new moon."

"They have darkened Sin in the midst of heaven,they have torn off his corona and stripped off his ornaments, they have darkened his beloved face."



It wasn't unusual for Demons to be seen as the seed of Anu the High God;


"the evil Utukku-demons are spawned from the seed of Anu;

"they are offspring of earth spawned by the seed of Anu."




The vampiric Demons as i've noted previously could be seen as the offspring of Enmesharra the Lord of Primordial chaos;


Weakening both heaven and earth, the spirit weakens lands, the demon, whose arms are lofty, weakens lands, he one whose arms are lofty and his gait is lofty.

The galla-demon is a goring ox, a great ghost, a ghost who always climbs over all the houses.

The gallu-demons, the Seven of whom have no shame, know not how to act kindly.

They ground down the land like flour, and know not how to spare (anyone), raging against people, eating flesh, causing blood to flow, (then) drinking from the veins.

At this time they are the very images of the gods the house of the Holy Mound where the Ewe and Wheat abound - the gallu-demons are filled with malevolence, they do not cease consuming blood.


Again Marduk was understood to fight against these;


Unto Enmešarra, the adorned, speaking the word, Marduk has spoken thus:

"Oh lord, steady-one, thy children are these seven.

Once again mightily I will work their overthrow".


This is Marduk as Asalluhi the great exorcist, establishing order overcoming Demonic chaos, but anyway there we have it a few insights into how Demons were perceived, and in the resurrection everyone gets to be a Power Ranger...







edit on Kam1031293vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday2131 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 11:16 AM
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If i were a demon, I would definitely be a sex demon. I'm not a creep or anything, I'm just sayin, if it was my job to roam around at night having sex with women of my choosing, I think I could handle that. Now, hear me out... It's not as if I am some kind of sex pervert or something, god no! All I'm saying, is if that's what I was created for and it was my only mission to randomly pop into a womans bed before giving them the old in-out, in-out and then move on to the next one, repeatedly throughout the night, every night, and that was my only mission in life, I'm just saying, you know.. I would somehow persevere and accomplish my duties with honor. It's like they say, if you're going through hell, sometimes you just gotta keep going. I mean, don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be easy, not by any means, goodness no. But, I have a feeling I would manage somehow, that's all I'm getting at here. So, yeah, I'm basically just your ordinary run of the mill guy. Your average Tom, Dick or Harry.



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

I'm reminded of this incident with reference to the galla-demon, the great ghost, goring ox who climbs over houses.

Whatever credence one gives to Carlos Castaneda, his description of the batlike things and their encounters with early sorcerers is chillingly similar to those described by OP.



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: 3n19m470


Yes but the title of the thread is 'They are neither male nor female' and so as a Demon you would be sent to derange the mind of a certain individual irrespective of age, attractiveness or gender, such activities were seen as relating to Demonic punishment squads sent by Higher Deities'



The relation of this messenger to the goddess obviously parallels that of dusk Bararitu,“evening watch” to evening star a manifestation of Ishtar. In the hymn to the Queen of Nippur the goddess punishes a sinner by putting Bararitu on on his case as her representative, the latter fulfils her assignment by deranging the sinner’s mind

Thus “She who comes at dusk” visualizes Ishtar's bad mood “wrath”and its verbal expression “hostile words”, and communicates them to mankind, as the embodiment of an atmospheric phenomenon and a member of Ishtar’s court, she must be found among the unidentified winged nude goddesses of the period. If so, she would closely resemble the spirit of the South Wind and the harpy-like figure of the Burney Relief.

Ishtar’s other high-profiled messenger Kilili,reveals a character trait of the being’s Akkadian counterpart,since together with Abbasusu (“She who spills through the window”), Abtagigi(“She who retires from the window”), and 15 other deities she constitutes Ishtar’s diplomatic service; eighteen in all, they are her “messengers.


Generally most sex Demons were seen as Female however perhaps because it was seen to be the case that it was mainly men deserving to have their minds deranged with regards to sexual misdemeanour, or perhaps simply because that department was run by a Female Deity.


a reply to: Unresponsible

I'm not so sure about Demons leaving footprints, sorcerer's certainly though...
edit on Kpm1031293vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday2131 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:07 PM
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Who is judging them as evil and what did that person judge as good?






posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:07 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


originally posted by: 3n19m470
If i were a demon, I would definitely be a sex demon. I'm not a creep or anything, I'm just sayin, if it was my job to roam around at night having sex with women of my choosing, I think I could handle that.

Demons are neither male nor female so you wouldn't be 'having sex'. What is happening is at a spiritual level ... it's rape and violence against a human that manifests in a sexual nature even though the demon isn't male or female. It's a perversion.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:16 PM
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Generally most sex Demons were seen as Female however perhaps because it was seen to be the case that it was mainly men deserving to have their minds deranged with regards to sexual misdemeanour, or perhaps simply because that department was run by a Female Deity.


These entities still exist. We have/are being programmed to fear them.
















Not for the faint hearted...




edit on 21-10-2014 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-10-2014 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:38 PM
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a reply to: Wifibrains


Generally in Sumeria it all comes down to the desirability of Order over Chaos, whether the sane and ordered mind of an individual or greater society and nature itself, anything detrimental to this in relative terms is perceived as an evil, however often Demonic agency can be seen employed by Deities in order to facilitate change, so in some senses encounters with Demons could be seen as for one's own good if positive change was the result, i guess the Demons would claim to be just doing their job.

The phenomena itself is non-existential and can best be related to phenomena such as the wind that blows were it will.

a reply to: FlyersFan

That's it, more derangement of the mind such that the individual believes they are having sex...
edit on Kpm1031293vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday2131 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)

edit on Kpm1031293vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday2131 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 01:07 PM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Wifibrains


Generally in Sumeria it all comes down to the desirability of Order over Chaos,


Imperative when building a civilisation.


whether the sane and ordered mind of an individual or [and?] a greater society and nature itself, anything detrimental to this in relative terms is perceived as an evil,


So if you did not conform to the hive mind it was judged as evil?

That would be good if it was for the betterment of the individual and a greater society, and nature itself.

We kind of slipped off of the harmonic....



however often Demonic agency can be seen employed by Deities in order to facilitate change, so in some senses encounters with Demons could be seen as for one's own good if positive change was the result, i guess the Demons would claim to be just doing their job.


Everything created has a purpose. They could be responsible for.... ___ (insert world changing event here)



The phenomena itself is non-existential and can best be related to phenomena such as the wind that blows were it will.




Angels and demons are the same thing when you sit on the fence.



edit on 21-10-2014 by Wifibrains because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 01:34 PM
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im sorry all, i was just being a jackass. dont take Me seriously. take my wife, seriously.



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 02:04 PM
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a reply to: 3n19m470

Too late mate.

Sorry I'm just being a jackass. Lol.



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 02:22 PM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt





I see the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth (water symbol). Mercury symbol anyone?

An (Anu) just means sky-god, so daemons where children of gods from "the sky" which is in my mind just an anagram for outer space.

One more thing, etymology studies of the word "Daemon" from Greek means "godlike powers", genious, dispenser, god, "protective spirit", fate, and even "god".

-MM

edit on 21-10-2014 by MerkabaMeditation because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: Wifibrains

Yes that was the idea that which was best for the individual was best for society, and also nature in general, the Gods the Universe et al.



a reply to: 3n19m470

We knew that...

edit on Kpm1031293vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday2131 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 04:31 PM
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As far as the sex demon thing... being the most interesting one to most of us stuck in a meat-suit... what's the good of being a "sex-demon" if you've no solid body? I mean, dreams are great and all... buuuut.... and that 'urinating like an ass' on the sleeping human.. .how do you KNOW it isn't common today? Perhaps folks just avoid the subject? Would you bring up to friends you woke up in a pungent pool?

And thank you, Kantz, for bringing us another semester of ancient folk beliefs! This one replete with DEMONS... cool!

(Though I still say something very much like the etherial things described by quaint folk belief do seem to exist and pop up from time-to-time)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 07:35 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

Gender-neutral beings served as far more than just demons in Mesopotamia. For reference, check out the Sumerian original of the Descent of Inanna, where the kur.ĝar.rû and gala.tur.ra are created by Enki for the sole purpose of bypassing the binding law of the Netherworld. These two, an asexual and a ritual singer respectively, were later adopted into the cult of Inanna as positions which living beings could, and did, fill.

The nature of the Seven dreaded Anunnaki of the Netherworld, as well, fill a kind of hazy place in the pantheon. At times these beings act as demons and sowers of chaos, yet on other occasions they are guardians and enforcers of the divine law. In reality, the demonic and the angelic, as you suggest later on, were in large part dependent on who was commanding, and toward what ends their actions were taken. It wasn't until later that truly "demonic" manifestations entered the spiritual world who fought against the powers of benevolence.

The whole host of Utukku were, in fact, just as necessary to the continuation of existence as their siblings, the Anunnaki and Igigi. This dichotomy resolved itself nicely in the Sumerian worldview, where the forces of order, reason, and life existed within the kalama, or the "known" world; and the forces of disorder, insanity, and death existed beyond the borders of the known world, in a place known as kur, which really represented any foreign land where Sumerian law had not brought enculturation.

As the Sumerian (and subsequently the Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, et al.) empires expanded, the realm of chaos was slowly taken over by the realm of order, and thus were figures like Pazuzu and Namtar, once feared demon-gods, tamed and turned into apotropaic figures used against what little unexplained evil remained free in the world.


~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 09:06 PM
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.
edit on 21-10-2014 by audenine because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2014 @ 05:31 AM
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a reply to: Wandering Scribe


It does raise questions as to whether the Hebrew concept of Satan was simply the personification of principles that had long been an aspect of Mesopotamian Demonic lore, that High Deities could direct undermining and corrosive spiritual influence against individuals and institutions in order to facilitate their collapse into chaos and ultimate negation, in the interest of change.

The Mesopotamians themselves probably had the whole thing covered with Nergal who could bring outdated teachings to destruction, undermine anything through disease and general corruption, the E-Kur world mountain of Enlil established above the underworld of Nergal, a son of Enlil, in that sense the Demons would be part of a cyclic process, Nergal as a destructive aspect of the Sun.

Satan as the negative aspect of Saturn bring evil and destruction to established Jovian order and Nergal also as that aspect of Saturn, untoward planetary influences...


a reply to: Baddogma


They don't exist, but those who swear that they do attest to their efficiency...

edit on Kam1031294vAmerica/ChicagoWednesday2231 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 11:34 AM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt


It does raise questions as to whether the Hebrew concept of Satan was simply the personification of principles that had long been an aspect of Mesopotamian Demonic lore, that High Deities could direct undermining and corrosive spiritual influence against individuals and institutions in order to facilitate their collapse into chaos and ultimate negation, in the interest of change.

The Mesopotamians themselves probably had the whole thing covered with Nergal who could bring outdated teachings to destruction, undermine anything through disease and general corruption, the E-Kur world mountain of Enlil established above the underworld of Nergal, a son of Enlil, in that sense the Demons would be part of a cyclic process, Nergal as a destructive aspect of the Sun.

Satan as the negative aspect of Saturn bring evil and destruction to established Jovian order and Nergal also as that aspect of Saturn, untoward planetary influences...


Nergal and Satan are vastly different figures in their respective theologies.

The most obvious difference, of course, being that Satan represents a challenge to, or denial of, God's will. The concept of doubt, atheism, and disbelief does not exist in Mesopotamia. Regardless of which period you're in, belief in the Anunnaki never waned, and there was never a recorded case of atheism or doubt in the will and power of the gods.

Nergal was, however, seen as a corrosive force. One of reduction and minimization rather than growth and expansion. This didn't make him evil or adversarial though, it was the Mesopotamian people realizing, and mythologizing, a very real natural phenomenon: the decay, over time, of all things. Nergal, in opposition to figures like Utu and Enki, simply represented the other side of the coin.

Your Saturnine and Jovial analysis is spot on, although the ancient Mesopotamian astrologers hadn't developed psycho-spiritual concepts like that yet. Such ideas of degeneration and growth being manifest in the planets wasn't proposed until Medieval magic and late Hebrew mysticism.

To the Mesopotamian mind Nergal was just as vital and relevant as Enki, which is why both had cities and temples and cultists all across the ancient land.


~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 11:49 AM
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There are real people who are "neither male or female" or are both. They are called intersex or gender variant. They are abundant in nature including with humans, where the incidence rate of gender variant in the U.S. is about the same as having red hair. In some past cultures these people were considered either godlike or demonlike, depending on the structure of the society. So as with all myths there may be a grain of truth.

This is Sex, Lies, and Gender, a National Geographic film about intersex people. This is part 1 only; the other parts are in a playlist here.

edit on 24-10-2014 by audenine because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 11:50 AM
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what I've found out online is that aliens come in a variety of flavors
some want to be male
some want to be female
some want to be both
some want to be neither
some are self regenerating, some are not
remember the birds and bees stuff? thats only part of the story



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