More Horror in Palestine

Information I received today has horrified me further regarding the plight of the people of Palestine. On the way to school this morning, in an area that is supposed to be under the sole control of Palestine, Israeli border police forcibly seized and detained 7 year old boy Oday Rajabi, in reply to stones being thrown by six young school children towards a checkpoint.

In a rapid response, a group of border police rushed from a nearby road and more ran down from the checkpoint, throwing two stun grenades and approximately three tear gas canisters towards the children standing by the school.

Two border police seized a 12 year old by the name of Yousef Hajajreh by the neck, while two more grabbed the seven year old by his arms and feet and carried him to be detained for nearly an hour. The 12 year old was arrested and put into a police car.

Nearby adults rushed to the aid of the children, including two of the employees of the UN school, but a teacher (Abd al-Aziz Hmad Rjob) was placed in a headlock when he tried to control Oday, who was crying hysterically, dragged away from the scene and subsequently arrested. The other employee, Malak Salaymeh, confronted the soldiers at the checkpoint with other locals and internationals, and the 18 year old was arrested while another man was briefly detained.

The three that were arrested were released about three hours later.

In a statement, Shukri Zaroo, another teacher, said "The school is going through a very difficult period right now as the children are having problems comprehending the material. Their understanding is affected due to their emotional state and the stress due to the daily attacks by the occupation forces, which are continuously escalating. There are also a percentage of children who are late for school, who run away from school, and some who avoid school altogether, because coming to school is such a stressful and frightening experience for them." source: UN

This is not an isolated incident. There are many accounts of Israeli police using tear gas and stun grenades on children, often targetting them on their way to school in the morning. Frankly I find this completely unacceptable, immoral, disgusting, and without question an unlawful use of excessive force. Many parents in the UK and Europe find the school run stressful, whether it be due to the morning rush at home, or trafficfromparents that could easily walk their children, or the tantrums of the children themselves. Imagine facing this next time you take your children to school, or even them facing it alone.

The lack of action by the United Nations is criminal in itself, you would think at the very least they would want to protect their assets. Speaking of another attack in August, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said that it "is yet another gross violation of international humanitarian law, which clearly requires protection by both parties of Palestinian civilians, UN staff and UN premises, among other civilian facilities, United Nations shelters must be safe zones not combat zones. This attack, along with other breaches of international law, must be swiftly investigated and those responsible held accountable. It is a moral outrage and a criminal act.”

Surely actions, not words, must be taken at this point, there are varying opinions on the death and casualty toll, but without a doubt too much civilian life is being lost in Palestine.

Watch the video here:


Information Courtesy of International Solidarity Movement.

I am sure there will be many members that will automatically side with the IDF and figure out a way to word it that blames Hamas.

Children wouldn't be afraid to go to school if Hamas didn't use them as human shields and store rockets in UN schools.

There it has been said. Now how about we discuss what tje IDF could have done differently given they are more responsible and better equipped.

"God gave us this land and we can act as we please"

The occupying forces must be very proud of their brave actions against these children who must have posed a rather dangerous threat.

After all, they might grow up to be terrorists so this is justified.

End sarcasm/



The sad thing is that most people don't even know or care that the IOF are there illegally according to international law. UN resolutions mean nothing as Israel just ignores them and no one else does anything about it.

a reply to: TheRisenPeople

Apparently they've been trying kids as young as 12 for 40 plus years in military courts:

On 29 September 2009, a military juvenile court was established by Military Order 1644 (incorporated into Military Order 1651) following mounting criticism that the Israeli military had been prosecuting children as young as 12 years in adult military courts for over four decades. Under the new order, children are still prosecuted in military courts but are now supposed to be separated from adults in most cases and tried before military judges who have been “appropriately trained”. Lawyers familiar with the military courts have identified a number of flaws with this development:

www.dci-palestine.org...

Also, I found this today which is deeply disturbing, I'm assuming she means the 4 kids that got bombed on the beach:





Something wrong with these people.

I'm happy the teachers are stepping up to protect these children.

The ss of the woman happy about anyone dying let alone children needs her head examined.

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

I was near vomiting reading THAT...
Utterly utterly disgusting. I don't wish bad things on people generally, but...

a reply to: TheRisenPeople

Sick.. Just sick. Kids will be kids. Are these full grown adults that threatened by these children that they must use treatment like that.

This world is turning into, I'll qoute Mr. Layhee for my fellow Canadians, a giant # storm.

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: TheRisenPeople

Something wrong with these people.

There is something wrong with that person... You're taking something stupid that a single person wrote and applying it to an entire people. None of the Israeli people I know are reveling in the death of children. No doubt there are some, but they are the exception and not the rule here.


As to the OT, I'm not going to justify the IDF's heavy handed tactics, but maybe the parents should have taught their children not to throw stones at men with guns, or anyone for that matter. I know I was raised with more sense than that.
If I was the parent of one of those children, of course I wouldn't want them in jail, but would come down on them like a ton of bricks for being so stupid. Under slightly different circumstances it could have gotten them killed.

You can bring up occupation this, oppression that, or whatever, but even considering that, it is not something for children to involve themselves in.

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: TheRisenPeople

Something wrong with these people.

There is something wrong with that person... You're taking something stupid that a single person wrote and applying it to an entire people. None of the Israeli people I know are reveling in the death of children. No doubt there are some, but they are the exception and not the rule here.


As to the OT, I'm not going to justify the IDF's heavy handed tactics, but maybe the parents should have taught their children not to throw stones at men with guns, or anyone for that matter. I know I was raised with more sense than that.
If I was the parent of one of those children, of course I wouldn't want them in jail, but would come down on them like a ton of bricks for being so stupid. Under slightly different circumstances it could have gotten them killed.

You can bring up occupation this, oppression that, or whatever, but even considering that, it is not something for children to involve themselves in.

There is something wrong with that person... You're taking something stupid that a single person wrote and applying it to an entire people. None of the Israeli people I know are reveling in the death of children. No doubt there are some, but they are the exception and not the rule here.

Of course I didn't mean the whole country of people but I've seen and heard enough (everything from the OP video, other examples of sick crap being said on social media sites, executions in military jails, spraying of Palestinian homes with "skunk water" and of course the blockade/massacre on Gaza itself etc.) to know that a percentage of them have some serious issues burning away.

You can bring up occupation this, oppression that, or whatever, but even considering that, it is not something for children to involve themselves in.

Neither is getting the crap blown out of you while playing or having your entire family killed as the apartment block where you live is destroyed by an IDF airstrike. Too late not to involve children, Israel brought the war to them:



By a child from Gaza before you ask.

a reply to: CommandoJoe

I whole-heartedly agree with your point about that being ONE person in the above post, nut there are numerous people saying equally horrific things, least of all the late Joan Rivers...

I also agree that the kids involved should be in for one hell of a telling when they get home to their parents, whilst I don't think the occupational forces deserve respect, they should at least be taught not to stoke the fire.

However, I don't really agree with your last point:

You can bring up occupation this, oppression that, or whatever, but even considering that, it is not something for children to involve themselves in.

The children didn't get involved, they were already involved, through no fault of their own. As above stated, that area was supposed to be under Palestinian control, and even if it wasn't, the occupation is illegal under international law. Many of these children could well have been tear-gassed by the same very soldiers on their way to school yesterday for all we know, they almost certainly would have seen/heard of their friends/family being murdered by them. so their actions, while stupid, can be understood at best, no justified, but understood.

But yes, it could have got them killed, so they should not have provoked a force that they know to be unjust and without moral. I agree.

The poor child that was shot by a sniper for fun while he was playing however, certainly didn't have it coming, we're hearing far too many of these stories, something should be done.

a reply to: TheRisenPeople
So the kids throw rocks at Israelis as they walk past a check point on their way to school...And then everyone whines because there is a reaction by the Israelis...What the Israelis need are guns that shoot rocks to even things out...

originally posted by: Iscool
a reply to: TheRisenPeople
So the kids throw rocks at Israelis as they walk past a check point on their way to school...And then everyone whines because there is a reaction by the Israelis...What the Israelis need are guns that shoot rocks to even things out...

By that same token, Hamas should've been equipped with the same weapons the IDF had when they illegally destroyed Gaza (again). And then instead of Israel trying to make out like the conflict was a war, it would've been a real war then

a reply to: Iscool

So the kids throw rocks at Israelis as they walk past a check point on their way to school...And then everyone whines because there is a reaction by the Israelis...What the Israelis need are guns that shoot rocks to even things out...

Wow. That's not twisted at all. You fit in perfectly with the aforementioned Israeli stereotype in this thread. Maybe thats why your name's Iscool? I assure you the current treatment of Palestinians is not cool. Are you that chick saying dead children is orgasmic?

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
Of course I didn't mean the whole country of people ...

Glad to hear it - wasn't clear from your post...

You can bring up occupation this, oppression that, or whatever, but even considering that, it is not something for children to involve themselves in.

Neither is getting the crap blown out of you while playing or having your entire family killed as the apartment block where you live is destroyed by an IDF airstrike. Too late not to involve children, Israel brought the war to them:

By a child from Gaza before you ask.

The event in your OP is in the West Bank - no air strikes there... And regardless, the children chose to throw stones, nobody made them do it. Like I said, if my kids where throwing rocks at ANYONE while they were walking to school, let alone police or military, there would be hell to pay when I got my hands on them...
They weren't beaten, bloody, or locked away for years - Maybe them being detained for a few hours will make them think twice before doing something stupid next time. There's some places in the world where they would have been beaten or even shot for what they did - and sadly the US is at that point now.

As an American living in Israel, I'll tell you all something about the Israeli police - they've got nothing on the US police in terms of brutality. I've had a few interactions with Israeli police and so far they have all been very calm, mellow, and polite. I can't say the same for my run ins with US cops...
Just yesterday I was stopped for speeding (way too fast, but hey, the road was wide open and I was late for work...), cop flagged me down, didn't yell or raise his voice at all. Now it probably helped that I'm not Israeli and didn't speak Hebrew, but he just said take it easy and slow down, and sent me on my way.
One time I saw a guy nose to nose arguing with a cop here and the guy even put his hands on the cop and pushed him a little - no tazer, no gun, no beatdown, they settled the issue and both walked away unscathed.

originally posted by: TheRisenPeople
a reply to: CommandoJoe

I whole-heartedly agree with your point about that being ONE person in the above post, nut there are numerous people saying equally horrific things, least of all the late Joan Rivers...

I also agree that the kids involved should be in for one hell of a telling when they get home to their parents, whilst I don't think the occupational forces deserve respect, they should at least be taught not to stoke the fire.

However, I don't really agree with your last point:

You can bring up occupation this, oppression that, or whatever, but even considering that, it is not something for children to involve themselves in.

The children didn't get involved, they were already involved, through no fault of their own.

When they made the decision to throw stones, that's when they became involved and it became their fault. If the Israeli's just started throwing stun grenades and arresting them unprovoked it would be a different story...

As above stated, that area was supposed to be under Palestinian control, and even if it wasn't, the occupation is illegal under international law. Many of these children could well have been tear-gassed by the same very soldiers on their way to school yesterday for all we know, they almost certainly would have seen/heard of their friends/family being murdered by them. so their actions, while stupid, can be understood at best, no justified, but understood.

But yes, it could have got them killed, so they should not have provoked a force that they know to be unjust and without moral. I agree.

More rationalizations - People need to be held accountable for their actions. If the police had attacked the children unprovoked I would expect them to be held accountable as well.

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

originally posted by: Iscool
a reply to: TheRisenPeople
So the kids throw rocks at Israelis as they walk past a check point on their way to school...And then everyone whines because there is a reaction by the Israelis...What the Israelis need are guns that shoot rocks to even things out...

By that same token, Hamas should've been equipped with the same weapons the IDF had when they illegally destroyed Gaza (again). And then instead of Israel trying to make out like the conflict was a war, it would've been a real war then

Or by another token, Israel could have equipped all of the civilians, that have been under constant mortar and rocket fire for the last 10 years, with unguided rockets to launch back into Gaza - that would be fair right? Hamas has already proven that when they have more accurate weapons they will still target civilians, and that's exactly what would happen if given equal weapons.

a reply to: CommandoJoe

Funniest quote of the day:

Hamas has already proven that when they have more accurate weapons they will still target civilians

Uhm yes, you mean like the 2,500 plus Palestinians which died during Protective Edge, most of which were civilians?

Better check your feet, the ice your standing on is about to break under the weight of your excuses and self-denials.

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: CommandoJoe

Funniest quote of the day:

Hamas has already proven that when they have more accurate weapons they will still target civilians

Uhm yes, you mean like the 2,500 plus Palestinians which died during Protective Edge, most of which were civilians?

Better check your feet, the ice your standing on is about to break under the weight of your excuses and self-denials.

Whats so funny about what I said? And you didn't even address it, you went on to talk about Palestinian civilian deaths in Gaza...


Here's an event that backs up what I said. Whats so funny about it?
Hamas fires laser guided anti-tank missile at school bus

As to the 2500 being mostly civilians (I've seen slightly lower #'s, but we'll use your 2500), that is debatable and very hard to verify/quantify one way or the other - if it is young children and women (UN #'s for that group is 750), that's easy, but mid to late teenage males and older, there's no way to accurately tell if they are a militant or not after the fact since Hamas doesn't wear uniforms. And Hamas will of course understate their losses as more civilian deaths make Israel look bad. The only ballpark figure you have is from the IDF based on video of the air strikes and their estimate of militants taken out in said strikes which Israel pegs at 616. So roughly half of the casualties are accounted for, and again roughly, half civilian, half militants. I'm sure there are civilians in the unverified remaining half, but I bet there are militants as well. Even if there weren't, at least 25% of the total dead are militants.

You can bet if Hamas had equivalent weapons there would be many 10's of thousands of dead Israeli civilians and they wouldn't even try to avoid civilians... I know many of you here think that Israel doesn't try to avoid civilians, but if that was the case there would be a lot more dead in Gaza. I've seen #'s as high as 5000 air strikes on Gaza in the most recent conflict - That's 2 bombs/missiles for each person killed in Gaza, and that doesn't even take into account tank shells and artillery rounds. If they are trying to take out civilians that's some pretty bad aim, especially with Gaza population density being so high as everyone likes to say... Israel could drop a small nuke on Gaza and be done with it, committing the genocide that everyone thinks is happening (hint: it's not). They could take a page from the WW2 handbook and carpet bomb ALL of Gaza down to rubble killing 1 Million + Palestinians in a matter of days. Everyone likes to dump on Israel for their actions in Gaza, but I bet all of you armchair Generals couldn't find a better solution to this complex problem. The best solution would be for Hamas to disarm themselves, or for the people of Gaza to overthrow Hamas. If either of those things happened, I have no doubt Israel would go out of their way to make things better in Gaza.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing civilian death on either side, but in this situation I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Hamas. In the case of Hamas, they don't care if there are civilian deaths on their side as it serves their propaganda purposes. I just don't see how anyone cannot be against Hamas and not place some of the blame on them for the deaths in Gaza - What is Israel supposed to do when they are launching thousands of missiles into Israel? Just tell their people to put their lives on hold for a few months and hide out in your safe room (if you have one) until Hamas runs out of missiles?

Something my grandfather told me as a child while we were wrestling around comes to mind and I think applies to both situations, the rock throwing children and Hamas launching rockets, "Don't dish it out if you can't take it".
ie, Don't start a fight you can't win, or don't complain if you don't like the consequences of your actions...

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: CommandoJoe

Funniest quote of the day:

Hamas has already proven that when they have more accurate weapons they will still target civilians

Uhm yes, you mean like the 2,500 plus Palestinians which died during Protective Edge, most of which were civilians?

Better check your feet, the ice your standing on is about to break under the weight of your excuses and self-denials.

Whats so funny about what I said? And you didn't even address it, you went on to talk about Palestinian civilian deaths in Gaza...


Here's an event that backs up what I said. Whats so funny about it?
Hamas fires laser guided anti-tank missile at school bus

As to the 2500 being mostly civilians (I've seen slightly lower #'s, but we'll use your 2500), that is debatable and very hard to verify/quantify one way or the other - if it is young children and women (UN #'s for that group is 750), that's easy, but mid to late teenage males and older, there's no way to accurately tell if they are a militant or not after the fact since Hamas doesn't wear uniforms. And Hamas will of course understate their losses as more civilian deaths make Israel look bad. The only ballpark figure you have is from the IDF based on video of the air strikes and their estimate of militants taken out in said strikes which Israel pegs at 616. So roughly half of the casualties are accounted for, and again roughly, half civilian, half militants. I'm sure there are civilians in the unverified remaining half, but I bet there are militants as well. Even if there weren't, at least 25% of the total dead are militants.

You can bet if Hamas had equivalent weapons there would be many 10's of thousands of dead Israeli civilians and they wouldn't even try to avoid civilians... I know many of you here think that Israel doesn't try to avoid civilians, but if that was the case there would be a lot more dead in Gaza. I've seen #'s as high as 5000 air strikes on Gaza in the most recent conflict - That's 2 bombs/missiles for each person killed in Gaza, and that doesn't even take into account tank shells and artillery rounds. If they are trying to take out civilians that's some pretty bad aim, especially with Gaza population density being so high as everyone likes to say... Israel could drop a small nuke on Gaza and be done with it, committing the genocide that everyone thinks is happening (hint: it's not). They could take a page from the WW2 handbook and carpet bomb ALL of Gaza down to rubble killing 1 Million + Palestinians in a matter of days. Everyone likes to dump on Israel for their actions in Gaza, but I bet all of you armchair Generals couldn't find a better solution to this complex problem. The best solution would be for Hamas to disarm themselves, or for the people of Gaza to overthrow Hamas. If either of those things happened, I have no doubt Israel would go out of their way to make things better in Gaza.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing civilian death on either side, but in this situation I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Hamas. In the case of Hamas, they don't care if there are civilian deaths on their side as it serves their propaganda purposes. I just don't see how anyone cannot be against Hamas and not place some of the blame on them for the deaths in Gaza - What is Israel supposed to do when they are launching thousands of missiles into Israel? Just tell their people to put their lives on hold for a few months and hide out in your safe room (if you have one) until Hamas runs out of missiles?

Something my grandfather told me as a child while we were wrestling around comes to mind and I think applies to both situations, the rock throwing children and Hamas launching rockets, "Don't dish it out if you can't take it".
ie, Don't start a fight you can't win, or don't complain if you don't like the consequences of your actions...

Quite a novel you've written there, in the most simplest of terms without being rude:

Israel is a nuclear armed nation with a profesionally trained army, Hamas is a bunch of guys with home-made rockets sticking up for their country and nothing like a professionally trained army, furthermore, laser-guided missile? What, one report in all the 50 or so years of the Israel/Palestine conflict? Must've been a present from someone that cares about countries committing genocidal actions and they tried to provide even terms.

Get real, and another point, have you seen Palestine lately (from what it should be according to international law):

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
a reply to: CommandoJoe

Funniest quote of the day:

Hamas has already proven that when they have more accurate weapons they will still target civilians

Uhm yes, you mean like the 2,500 plus Palestinians which died during Protective Edge, most of which were civilians?

Better check your feet, the ice your standing on is about to break under the weight of your excuses and self-denials.

Whats so funny about what I said? And you didn't even address it, you went on to talk about Palestinian civilian deaths in Gaza...


Here's an event that backs up what I said. Whats so funny about it?
Hamas fires laser guided anti-tank missile at school bus

As to the 2500 being mostly civilians (I've seen slightly lower #'s, but we'll use your 2500), that is debatable and very hard to verify/quantify one way or the other - if it is young children and women (UN #'s for that group is 750), that's easy, but mid to late teenage males and older, there's no way to accurately tell if they are a militant or not after the fact since Hamas doesn't wear uniforms. And Hamas will of course understate their losses as more civilian deaths make Israel look bad. The only ballpark figure you have is from the IDF based on video of the air strikes and their estimate of militants taken out in said strikes which Israel pegs at 616. So roughly half of the casualties are accounted for, and again roughly, half civilian, half militants. I'm sure there are civilians in the unverified remaining half, but I bet there are militants as well. Even if there weren't, at least 25% of the total dead are militants.

You can bet if Hamas had equivalent weapons there would be many 10's of thousands of dead Israeli civilians and they wouldn't even try to avoid civilians... I know many of you here think that Israel doesn't try to avoid civilians, but if that was the case there would be a lot more dead in Gaza. I've seen #'s as high as 5000 air strikes on Gaza in the most recent conflict - That's 2 bombs/missiles for each person killed in Gaza, and that doesn't even take into account tank shells and artillery rounds. If they are trying to take out civilians that's some pretty bad aim, especially with Gaza population density being so high as everyone likes to say... Israel could drop a small nuke on Gaza and be done with it, committing the genocide that everyone thinks is happening (hint: it's not). They could take a page from the WW2 handbook and carpet bomb ALL of Gaza down to rubble killing 1 Million + Palestinians in a matter of days. Everyone likes to dump on Israel for their actions in Gaza, but I bet all of you armchair Generals couldn't find a better solution to this complex problem. The best solution would be for Hamas to disarm themselves, or for the people of Gaza to overthrow Hamas. If either of those things happened, I have no doubt Israel would go out of their way to make things better in Gaza.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing civilian death on either side, but in this situation I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Hamas. In the case of Hamas, they don't care if there are civilian deaths on their side as it serves their propaganda purposes. I just don't see how anyone cannot be against Hamas and not place some of the blame on them for the deaths in Gaza - What is Israel supposed to do when they are launching thousands of missiles into Israel? Just tell their people to put their lives on hold for a few months and hide out in your safe room (if you have one) until Hamas runs out of missiles?

Something my grandfather told me as a child while we were wrestling around comes to mind and I think applies to both situations, the rock throwing children and Hamas launching rockets, "Don't dish it out if you can't take it".
ie, Don't start a fight you can't win, or don't complain if you don't like the consequences of your actions...

Quite a novel you've written there, in the most simplest of terms without being rude:

Israel is a nuclear armed nation with a profesionally trained army, Hamas is a bunch of guys with home-made rockets sticking up for their country and nothing like a professionally trained army, furthermore, laser-guided missile? What, one report in all the 50 or so years of the Israel/Palestine conflict? Must've been a present from someone that cares about countries committing genocidal actions and they tried to provide even terms.

Get real, and another point, have you seen Palestine lately (from what it should be according to international law):

So you are saying that you support Hamas and their tactics? If some group had a problem with your government you would be ok with them randomly launching missiles in you direction?

They also used the anti-tank missiles in the most recent conflict inside Gaza, so yes they do have more of them, but because Hamas is now mostly contained within Gaza, they haven't been close enough to use them against civilians. If they had used their tunnels as planned, there would have been quite a bit more Israeli civilian deaths.
And if you want to go back 50 years then you can include all the suicide bombing attacks against civilians by Hamas and others when the borders were more open... If Hamas are such noble freedom fighters, then they should have no reason to target civilians at all...

And again with genocide - it simply isn't happening.

And to be clear as I've said in many threads here, I don't blindly support everything Israel does, but I am very anti-Hamas - they have tried to kill me in every one of the 5 years I've lived in Israel. And I've done nothing to the people of Gaza, West Bank, or Palestinians anywhere in the world - I genuinely feel bad for the situation they are in. Israel isn't perfect, but Hamas is making things worse for everyone - except those in leadership positions siphoning off Palestinian aid money to line their own pockets.

As to the maps that everyone likes to repost:
The maps that lie and mislead.